Would you hunt with a operator hunting illegaly?

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Here is a recent event.

My neighbor send a runner over to me and says there is a hunter who wants to see me. I already knew that 2 cruisers had arrived in the area.
1. Was a older landcruiser worn narrow tyres. Perfect for Zim + black zim ph

2. Fairly new landcruiser + non legal operator+ cliient.

The operator asked me a few questions and then informed me that he was having problems in the vic falls area so he was moving his operations next door to us.
I asked him where he was going to get his permit since We buy all of the permits for this area. After that he changed tact telling me he would bring 8 hunters to me for hipppo & Croc. I told him he would not be sending anyone to me. He asked why I told him that we do not have even half that number of permits his reply was the clients will never know. I told him to F off.

They left the next morning, the blacks in the old zim cruiser and the other new one with big tyres, aluminum wheels, 2 rifles in rack,
Oh, I almost forgot no number plate

 

[thi9elsp]

Lon keep sticking to your ways. And, kick that cancer. I'm 20 years free. It can be licked. John

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Lon keep sticking to your ways. And, kick that cancer. I'm 20 years free. It can be licked. John

Thanks John , I would not make it thru a day if it was not for Liesl. We will stick by our guns this thread is for the hunters who so easily can be swindled or caught up in a illegal act. Which could be publicized.

 

[fourfive8]

Like many posts so far I'm unsure of the nature of the original question?? Almost like the original question is a "loaded" one. How in the world can an average hunter from outside Africa, especially if from the US or other country where low level corruption is rare, sort out the difference between the open and common corruptions displayed by officials in charge of enforcing the laws and the outfitters, owners and PHs doing business within that corrupt system? Most of us just muttle along when participating in these hunting trips and hope that whatever is going on is above board. I think a better question to ask or topic to discuss would be about what is going on within the system that outsiders don't see. A system that hunters may not be aware of and have nothing to do with until they unwittingly get caught up in it. And then there is the other side of the coin where exceeding wealthy and powerful hunters have pressured operators into breaking the law for benefit of the hunters involved. I know some operators who have real fear of some clients from certain countries. What prevents international hunters with criminal "mafia" connections from participating in and corrupting the system?

 

[bowjijohn]

What an extra ordinary and fascinating thread

I very nearly passed it by

I can’t comment on the issues of illegal operations or poaching PHs

As for honesty and integrity

Isn’t that one of those almost unattainables that draw us to the bush?

I wish you gods speed in your recovery

John

 

[Pheroze]

I am confused by one tangent in this thread. It seems to me that there is a win-win when a RSA PH contracts with a Zim PH to bring a client to Zim. The Zim PH gets income from a client that another PH vouched for, the RSA PH gets income and continues to build a bond with their hunter client and the client has someone they know and trust along to oversee a very expensive journey around the world. Is this business arrangement illegal or immoral? If so, why?

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I have no idea why you used a RSA PH as your example.

A few questions. Is the foreign PH going to be present in Zim? Is he doing this out of the kindness of heart or is he receiving payment?

Does he have a work permit?

Is his name on a TR2, so that he can legally carry a firearm?

 

[flying sailor]

I am thankful for this discussion. I am learning there is more than meets the eye. Before I go further, I wish you well on a full and complete recovery of the cancer. My wife had a cancer and it was grueling to go thru. I heard stories going customs on my return thru Atlanta. Oh boy! Like many other businesses there are many scammers. I was scammed by a collector once, contracted to make some antique gun parts, then found out later he passed them off as originals and got big money. Called up the bush telegraph and put the word out.

 

[PerH]

Back where i grew up it was a large forrest estate , about 4000 ha , after New owner took over , the local hunt team leader did as he had done for years. And before him other people in generations .

When ovners hunt team hunted , he led it . To good results and such as usual .
Then when the owner and his friends left , the teamleader had his friends hunt there . Not only disrespectful over owner and the land , but also some German tourists paying much to hunt there as the rumors said .

Knowing the German code they would been absolutely furious over it if they had found out .

I have posted in other post elsewhere how I felt growing up there , and why I did not hunt much around there .

 

[Pheroze]

I have no idea why you used a RSA PH as your example.

A few questions. Is the foreign PH going to be present in Zim is he doing this out of the kindness of heart or he receiving payment?

Does he have a work permit.

Is his name on a TR2 so that he can legally carry a firearm?

I only used RSA because there are a lot on here who advertise in multiple countries but seem based in RSA. I used Zim because you are an expert there.

I assumed it would be a business transaction, financial benefit to all concerned.

If I understand you the warning you are giving us as client hunters has to do with the permits. So, who facilitates the hunt is not the concern, but make darn sure it is a proper arrangement.

I also wanted to make sure I told you how much I appreciate you taking the time to send out these warnings. You are obviously going through a tough personal time, and the selflessness of your comments is not lost to me. Thank you and I am praying for your recovery.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I am reversing an example. My good Canadian friend C. Says after two weeks of DG hunting he wants a Oryx in Namibia,
I make some calls lets say to Namibia and find him a good hunt. The Namibian operator says thank you and gives me a 20% commission. I stay home and take care of things at home. Ding ding all legal!
If the client says I want you to come with me and protect me. You must carry a rifle that is not allowed. Now you are working in a country you are not licensed for. At least part of your hunt is being done illegally and part legal.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Well, maybe you have? “Imagine if you will, you’re reading these posts through another dimension. A dimension not only of poor spelling and grammar but of mind. A journey into a wondrous hunting forum where boundaries are that of the imagination. Your next stop, the AH Twilight Zone” - Rod Serling (using literary license) LOL

For many on here English is a second language. My official second language in my undergrad days was German. Postgrad it was French. Though I could read both sufficient to pass muster, I cannot and never could write either worth beans. My hat's off to anyone who attempts composing and posting something that's other than his mother tongue.

I write English well enough to be published in scholarly journals but I don't see any point in being terribly fussy here. On this forum I express myself in a more leisurely fashion. It is afterall a thread for a leisurely pastime. Having said that, I'm sure many have noticed I very frequently reopen and edit threads I have posted, almost always simply to make them read better. Being leisurely does not necessarily translate as sloppy or lazy.

 

[gillettehunter]

Lon first of all best of luck with your cancer. Treatments have improved drastically. Personally I'm not interested in a illegal hunt. I think some hunters new to Africa may not understand some of the legalities and get burned. Thanks for the thread and the warnings.
Bruce

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

No for a couple of reasons. I believe wild game has a right to live under game guidelines and laws. I would feel like I "murdered" an animal if I knew I was doing something illegal that's just me.

Secondly I'm not going to jail, prison or get into some international incident. I heard about a guy from the US that tried to sneak ammunition into Russia for a Russian bear hunt. He got something like 12 years in prison.

Does the name Brittany Griner ring a bell? It's one thing to break laws in your own country. It's another ball game you breaking laws in a nation you're visiting.

No thanks let's do it by the book.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

No for a couple of reasons. I believe wild game has a right to live under game guidelines and laws. I would feel like I "murdered" an animal if I knew I was doing something illegal that's just me.

Secondly I'm not going to jail, prison or get into some international incident. I heard about a guy from the US that tried to sneak ammunition into Russia for a Russian bear hunt. He got something like 12 years in prison.

Does the name Brittany Griner ring a bell? It's one thing to break laws in your own country. It's another ball game you breaking laws in a nation you're visiting.

No thanks let's do it by the book.

Hi Obi Wan,

You show your wisdom. I once was on the sharp end of getting a US bank president out of shit and out of “a” country. He had done nothing illegal I almost got in deep shit for helping.

 

[Hunt anything]

No for a couple of reasons. I believe wild game has a right to live under game guidelines and laws. I would feel like I "murdered" an animal if I knew I was doing something illegal that's just me.

Secondly I'm not going to jail, prison or get into some international incident. I heard about a guy from the US that tried to sneak ammunition into Russia for a Russian bear hunt. He got something like 12 years in prison.

Does the name Brittany Griner ring a bell? It's one thing to break laws in your own country. It's another ball game you breaking laws in a nation you're visiting.

No thanks let's do it by the book.

100%, I wish people coming and visiting our country would abide by our laws.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Hi Obi Wan,

You show your wisdom. I once was on the sharp end of getting a US bank president out of shit and out of “a” country. He had done nothing illegal I almost got in deep shit for helping.

Right. As clients we are vulnerable. We are unfamiliar with regulations in the foreign country and must trust that the lodge owner and PH know what's right and wrong and are on the right side of everything. Trust is the key word here. Many times clients are jumping into a safari with an operator who is a total stranger. In my case I met a vendor at our local gun show who had been to Africa the year before. I showed him photos of my trophies and he showed me his. I told him as a young man it had always been my desire to hunt Africa but as I grew into a very skilled stalker, the attraction of sitting over a waterhole lost its luster. Adversity is what makes a trophy a trophy. Gary laughed. "It's not always ambushing animals over there. If you want hard hunting this outfit will give it to you. Check it out." Gary formerly operated a successful fishing/hunting lodge north of here for more than twenty years. I didn't know the guy but I easily trusted him. A few months later I was on my way to Africa and Gary decided to tag along. I hadn't been out of North America since my Army days in the early seventies so international travel itself was entering the Twilight Zone. I decided to take my own gun which was bound to make things complicated. Gary asked if I would bring a CZ 416 Rigby he picked up for the lodge owner. So not only was I taking my gun to hunt with, I was bringing one to leave. I managed to wade through the permanent export red tape on this end but had to trust that the lodge owner would have everything legally in order on his end. That was a HUGE leap of faith! Mind you, I hadn't even spoken to the guy on the phone. I also had no concept of how ... what's the word I'm looking for ... unreliable ? ... govt agents can be in South Africa. Turns out having a client import a gun was new territory for the lodge owner too. The middleman helper guy at the airport in Joberg messed up his paperwork but fortunately I had extra copies. The guy was "connected" so a few dollars in his pocket made everything okay. Yeah, that was a little unnerving and something of an eye opener. My first PH was a fine young man who I could see right off was a straight up guy. We mostly hunted two very large properties with lots of game owned by his two best friends from high school. It was the best scenario a client could ask for. The way I like to hunt is the way my PH likes to hunt so it was a perfect match. Everything went off without a hitch. It went well enough for me to return the next year ... and with a double rifle to leave behind for the lodge owner.

 

[Rare Breed]

Wow Lon, very sorry to hear this. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

Everyone it would be great if all of us could lift up Lon at Tokoloshe Safaris in prayer as he goes through cancer treatment please

 

[Fatback]

Prayers set for healing for Lon. God Bless.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Never. They are swindling money into their own pockets which should have gone into wildlife conservation. Conservation which is absolutely mandatory to keep our passion of sustainable hunting possible in the long run.

Even if it’s for the most selfish reasons, we should never support this practice because we have to look at the big picture. Wildlife conservation needs funds and those funds are generated by hunting. If those funds aren’t going into wildlife conservation, then this is plain thievery.

I did do something legally grey though, in Africa. It happened a long time ago, so I can freely talk about it now. During my life’s first African safari to Kenya in 1974, I hunted a Cape buffalo with a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. My white hunter permitted me to do this, even though the minimum legal caliber for hunting thick skinned dangerous game (elephant, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, Cape buffalo) in Kenya was .400 bore from 1958 to the year of the hunting ban in 1977.

I’m sure no one will begrudge me that. But it did happen.
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@Hunter-Habib
A PH after seeing how my Whelen performed on game said if I wanted to hunt a Cape buffalo with it it could be done. I don't know if this was legal or not in his area but he said it would perform the same if not better than the 9.3x62.
I know the 35 Whelen would do the job in the RIGHT circumstances but would be lacking if the shit hit the fan and things went south.
It's something I will never know..
I was looking forward to trying it on scrub bulls or water buffalo loaded with 310gn RNSP and solids but the property I was to hunt on was sold to an international buyer that closed into hunting.
Bob