Would you hunt with a operator hunting illegaly?

[BRICKBURN]

Reading some of the previous I wonder if I have entered the twilight zone.

....

Just "Down the Rabbit hole" here on AH

 

[Roller]

Maybe Yes.
Maybe No.
It's all a facade! a persona!

If your best friend is a multi millionaire (and you are not) should people be duped into you also being a multi millionaire?

Or

Just the opposite: you are neither "rich" nor "poor", but you have acceptted friends that are both.

There are extreme and moral/ethical/minimal limits to everything and everyone!

My question to you; and really everyone that I meet or associate, intermingle with is:

Do you try to please or be accepted by everyone?

Or

Do you please yourself by being accepted by those that matter by your standards?
By your morals/ ethics?

(Rhetorical question) What are your standards? Are they preceived by others as weak, strong, immoral, etc,?

Where do people draw the "perverbial line in the sand".?

I'm not picking on you directly @baxterb, in fact you have asked/ given the almost perfect response by which I can quite possibly not open people's minds to.

Thus I commend for allowing/affording me the opportunity to vent my extremism against so called: "popular opinionism".

I don’t WTF this means , but it’s the most entertaining thing I’ve read all day .

 

[thi9elsp]

My criteria before I book a hunt and this approach continues while hunting:

1) Legal
2) Safe (as can be reasonable within a dangerous activity)
3) Availability of game
4) Learning about the local area (people, geography, animals ecosystems, etc.)
5) Taking home some memorable trophies

I know all of the hunts I've done (US Domestic, Zimbabwe, Mozambique and New Zealand) were legal.

 

[375Fox]

Good point.
I have seen a number of south African outfitters offering hunts in Zimbabwe and other countries.
I wonder how this works?!

They are essentially just acting as an agent. A hunter has a good first plains game safari in South Africa. The outfitter says they offer hunts elsewhere, so hunter feels very comfortable booking through them. The South African outfitter organizes a hunt through an outfitter or PH in that country. Using Zimbabwe as an example, there are some South African outfitters organizing quality hunts there. There are others organizing very marginal hunts on questionable areas with unknown PHs at full cost of quality areas because client doesn’t know better. A hunter needs to look into who and where they are hunting with in Zimbabwe not the South African outfitter they booked through as an agent for the hunt if they book a hunt that way. For Mozambique, I believe a South African dangerous game PH license is acceptable there. However, there are South African PHs that hunt full seasons there vs PHs that take a client every other year and still offer hunts. I’d spend my money with outfitters and PHs who have invested their time and learned to hunt there. A buffalo hunt in Mozambique won’t compare to a ranch hunt for plains game in Limpopo.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

..... and you're asked to wait in the car, with it running, as he strolls into the bank. He'll just be minute.

And "strolling" double time when he exits the bank.

 

[WAB]

Brickburn , my wife and I are in RSA i am going thru advanced cancer treatment. Not sure when I will make it back to zim but I will try to send it to you as a PM. If i post it it will be copied, doctored and used illegaly.

Wow Lon, very sorry to hear this. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

Lon
Sorry to hear and prayers for a full and speedy recovery.

 

[James.Grage]

How many of us have shot from a bakkie?

I have watched DVD of PH and clients following up wounded lion’s, Cape buffalo’s and leopards, plus other plains game, from the back of a bakkie. Some had shotguns others had rifles. The different countries is a give, so i am not up to speed on what is really being asked. It this were illegal, i am sure that these cases would have been addressed by the courts of the courts. A copy of the DVD would have been evidence to convict.

i did have the opportunity to shoot of the back of a bakkie. We were moving to a new area and i saw a few dog following a group of impala, the Ph called the owner of the property to see if these are his dogs and to let him know that we were close by. I was asked to move from the cab to the back and i was able to dispatch 2 of the 3 dogs.

 

[C.W. Richter]

How many of us have shot from a bakkie?

like baiting native species in TX. Oh, did i say something?? LOL

 

[C.W. Richter]

Just "Down the Rabbit hole" here on AH

the first thing i seek is IF the guide is operating Illegally. It just makes it so much more "cloak and dagger" and "under the cloak of darkness!" LOL NFW!

 

[BnC 04]

@Tokoloshe Safaris
Lon, wish you a fast and speedy recovery while kicking that cancer in the a**

 

[James.Grage]

Hi Lon

Wishing you a great recovery from your cancer.

Cancer is beatable you just need to take the treatments provided, my niece just went through an advanced stage of cancer and she came through fairly well.

So South Africa has a great Medical and you should have a nice recovery. Take care.

I’m still doing treatments and I have more bloodwork to do this coming week so I’m not sure when I’ll be cleared for Travel but I’m hoping next year I’ll be able to get out of here and make my make a trip to Africa so we’ll see what happens

 

[Dewald]

I have watched DVD of PH and clients following up wounded lion’s, Cape buffalo’s and leopards, plus other plains game, from the back of a bakkie. Some had shotguns others had rifles. The different countries is a give, so i am not up to speed on what is really being asked. It this were illegal, i am sure that these cases would have been addressed by the courts of the courts. A copy of the DVD would have been evidence to convict.

i did have the opportunity to shoot of the back of a bakkie. We were moving to a new area and i saw a few dog following a group of impala, the Ph called the owner of the property to see if these are his dogs and to let him know that we were close by. I was asked to move from the cab to the back and i was able to dispatch 2 of the 3 dogs.

This happens more and more in KZN. Dog hunting involves BIG MONEY in the taxi industry with betting. I would personally rather shoot the owner, but since that complicates matters, nothing like tucking into a pack of hunting dogs withe the .416

 

[Brent in Az]

I wouldn't do anything illegal or unethical.

 

[DLSJR]

I would never knowingly hunt with an illegal PH or Safari Operator. That said, we often trust our PH to abide by all laws, as we don’t know nuances in various laws in foreign countries.

 

[IronRanger]

No, I don't understand the context of the question but No. Alot of this business is based on trust. If that first line is crossed, where will it stop,

 

[mark-hunter]

Reading some of the previous I wonder if I have entered the twilight zone.

Twilight is good.
Here we are all foreign clients or reputable outfiters and sponsors.
So, we have created a small World of our own, and our small World main stream.

But in real world, and real life there are other "perspectives" for which we dont know much about.

As for outfitters in one country, advertising in another countries:
They could be acting as "agents".

Here is one fresh example.
Two days ago I went to a local hunting agency that recently opened up for business.
Agency is offering the hunts in 7 or 8 African countries. (!!!)

But the agent hasn't been to each of this countries, or does not know personally each of the outfitters.
But business is perfectly legal, and agency acts as intermediary - at least in his country of residence. (in EU, or as in example Agent/outfitter in country A organizing hunt in Country B)

With benefit of a doubt, that business is legal, the first consequence that comes to mind is a slightly (or more then slightly) higher cost of hunt for client, because the intermediate agent must make his profit.

For fresh business like this, additional risk is there for a client, that a fresh start up does not make well run in channels, for things like rifle import, or later shipping of trophies, or hunting permits preliminary check ups.

For hunting permits, I have seen my hunting permit only on arrival to hunting camp, but thinking in retrospective, I have not seen it in advance. (3 safaris under the belt).
This means that average client is acting with benefit of doubt, or with full trust to preliminary agreement, whether is it with agent, intermediary, or directly with outfitter.

If the business is ongoing for years, with steady partners and outfitters in various countries for most common species this risk is minimized. But going to less visited locations, having increased number of "intermediates", hunting less common species, the risk of something being wrong increases.

 

[grand veneur]

...

If the business is ongoing for years, with steady partners and outfitters in various countries for most common species this risk is minimized. But going to less visited locations, having increased number of "intermediates", hunting less common species, the risk of something being wrong increases.

We assume that no one will intentionally hunt illegally.

With the mass tourism that hunting has become in Africa, the risk of illegal hunting should actually be very low, but the story of @Tokoloshe Safaris is proof that illegal hunting can still occur.

As far as less visited locations is concerned, everyone has to think about whether one want to get involved in something like that. Sure it can be a real adventure, but risky and whether one are hunting legally or not may be difficult to recognize, neither from the agent at home nor from the client on site, with all the risks that come with it.

That's what happened to many of us in the early 1990s in the new Russia and the former Soviet republics. Luckily there were never any serious problems.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Reading some of the previous I wonder if I have entered the twilight zone.

Mark you are on the right path.

Well, maybe you have? “Imagine if you will, you’re reading these posts through another dimension. A dimension not only of poor spelling and grammar but of mind. A journey into a wondrous hunting forum where boundaries are that of the imagination. Your next stop, the AH Twilight Zone” - Rod Serling (using literary license) LOL

 

[mark-hunter]

With the mass tourism that hunting has become in Africa, the risk of illegal hunting should actually be very low, but the story of @Tokoloshe Safaris is proof that illegal hunting can still occur.

Mass tourism, yes. South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe, etc....