Would you hunt with a operator hunting illegaly?

[375Fox]

I find it interesting that more hunter are more interested in the language that their camp staff are speaking, than is their outfitter licensed to hunt in the country you are hunting in? Or is the front company there just to provide a semblance of being legal.

Times have changed.

Speaks to the quality of this thread.

 

[bowjijohn]

visiting hunters wanting to be able to speak directly to locals rather than through a PH is an interesting phenomenon

It speaks of a desire for authenticity

Which is - I suspect- just as important to modern hunters as the hunt itself

As for breaking the law ….

A very good friend told me a tale of a client getting searched at the airport when leaving Moz

He was found in possession of a warthog tusk

He was arrested for ivory smuggling

The PH stepped in and took the heat so that his client could leave on his flight

PH told that $2000 would make problem go away

This he did not have and so found himself in prison on remand

Judge threw case out when he finally got to court

However….

Who here would like to spend 5 minutes in an African prison??

Stick with the rules

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Do you have a problem with a visiting Hunter trying to learn some of the native culture and language? I for one vet the companies I visit the best I can but don’t want to be a blind follower and just shoot when told to shoot, I prefer to be a part of a team and being able to communicate is a huge part of that for me.

Sorry you misread me there is nothing we like better than for visiting hunters than to have them get to know our staff and the people in our hunting areas.

In our camp there at least a dozen or languages spoken.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

First off, hang in there, Lon. You can beat this. I was told 50/50 chance of never having a normal life and 99% chance of my cancer returning. I am 15 years cancer free. My life is as "normal" as I have always lived it.

The 2 times I used an outfitter (US and Argentina), the hunt was "successful" but not enjoyable. Since then, I have avoided using outfitters unless the outfitter is the owner.

Most experienced travelers should know when something isn't right. I have an ultra-sensitive BS meter and it is seldom wrong. One issue I have seen is that many people leave their moral and ethics compass at home when they travel. When I worked Personnel Recovery for DoD/DoS, most of my work was getting US citizens out of trouble. So many seemed to think laws that they must follow in the US can be ignored outside the US, especially in 3rd World countries. Then there is the "my friend/guide/outfitter/sponsor/cousin/etc. told me they never enforce that..."

From a hunter perspective, I think a lot of issues are more on the moral/ethics side. Many have floating standards when it comes to the must have trophy. At the end of the day, we must all live with ourselves and be prepared to pay the consequences if we stray.

Safe hunting

Thank you for the words of encouragement.
This is my second time around.

 

[Hunt anything]

Sorry you misread me there is nothing we like better than for visiting hunters than to have them get to know our staff and the people in our hunting areas.

In our camp there at least a dozen or languages spoken.

Good luck with your battle, a good positive attitude is a big part of the battle.

 

[Namagiqa]

This is a long answer but it's not a simple subject.

You have mentioned the Lacey Act a couple of times. I have not hunted in Africa yet, but I have a pretty good amount of experience representing clients charged in Alaska with Lacey Act violations. It's nothing to mess around with.

There are many aspects to the Lacey Act but the one I see most commonly is people who violate local fish and game laws and then ship an item in interstate or foreign commerce. If the value of an item is >$350, it's a felony. So in my neck of the woods, someone shoots a bear illegally and ships the bear hide back home, if the value of the bear hide is >$350, it's a felony. How do they determine it's >$350? Because Alaska wildlife troopers auction off seized horns and hides, including DLP (defense of life and property horns and hides, every year. And bear hides routinely go for more than $350.

Alaska game laws are complex. There are 26 game management units and those are broken down into further sub-units. The laws, including seasons, legality of animals, and methods of taking them vary from sub unit to sub unit and sometimes even within a sub unit. Generally, I don't see naive clients get charged. That is, if an unscrupulous guide dupes a client, the client is not likely to get charged. BUT ... federal fish and wildlife agents will visit the client, the client will have to give up any trophies that were obtained in violation of state law, and client might be a witness against a guide. Usually, though, clients know.

As one example, I represented a client who was charged with conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act. She and her son had an interior brown bear hunt. Flew out with the guide on August 9. Season started August 10. Alaska has strict laws against hunting the same day you are airborne in a charter flight, i.e., flying from Anchorage to Bethel aboard Alaska Air does not prohibit you from hunting that day but hopping on a bush plan to land at your campsite will prohibit you from hunting that day. These two hunters flew from Fairbanks early on August 9 and set up camp. While setting up camp, they see a really nice brown bear. Guide says, "We may not get another chance like this again." So they go after it. Son shoots it and she signs a statement that the bear was taken on August 10. Bear hide is shipped to their home outside Alaska. One of the guide's employees tells the feds. Can't remember if he was under investigation or if he just went to them. Tipped them onto this guide. They did a big investigation. Guide cops to a lot of violations and brings up this client. Client gets charged because bear was taken out of season and after same day flying. We resolved it for a misdemeanor because she was not the one who pulled the trigger but as part of her agreement, she could not hunt in the US for 5 years but she was able to keep her gun rights.

So, what can you learn from this?
1. In my experience, clients frequently know when they are breaking the law. In the example given by OP, the client went from one country to another. That should have been a huge red flag even if the client knew nothing else.
2. Clients have an independent responsibility to familiarize themselves with the game laws of where they are going. Alaska's laws, for example, are easily accessible online. I would anticipate one could likewise find the applicable laws for the countries where one is going to hunt. One aspect of pre-hunt preparation should be reviewing the game laws.
3. This guide had a good reputation prior to this event but he was willing to bend the laws when the opportunity presented itself. The investigation showed this was not the first time or the only time. So if you are a client, you should do your due diligence in hiring a reputable guide but also recognize that even PHs and guides with good reputations might recommend doing something illegal. Due diligence would mean: ensuring the PH is properly licensed; checking references; seeing if the PH is in reputable professional organizations, such as SCI.
4. One thing I've learned in this business is that in the right circumstances, anyone is capable of anything. And if you've scrimped and saved for years for your dream hunting trip to Africa and you see a kudu of a lifetime but you can't shoot it, don't blithely say you wouldn't pull the trigger. Say you hope you wouldn't and pray you aren't put in that situation.
5. If, God forbid, you do something stupid and 6 months later or 2 years later federal fish and wildlife agents show up on your door, SHUT YOUR MOUTH. DO NOT TALK WITH THEM. Get their contact information, such as their card, and get an attorney IMMEDIATELY. Get an attorney that has experience with federal criminal charges and with Lacey Act cases in particular and have your attorney reach out to the agents.

Lastly, irrespective of any legal advice, I'll say it isn't worth it. Not just for the risk of prosecution, which is real, but also for the trophy. Every time you see that trophy, you will know you cheated and that greatly diminishes the enjoyment of any illegally gained trophy.

 

[Hunt anything]

Good advice on the Lacy act. I knew a taxidermist in the lower 48 that received a shipment of king eider from a client, it had way too many, only 4 per person per species per year for non resident hunters at the time
on sea ducks in Alaska. The feds knew about it and charged the unknowing taxidermist wit a Lacy act violation. He was able to prove he had no idea what the shipment contained (he kept all of the emails from the Hunter) but it cost him a substantial amount of money to clear his name.

 

[freefall]

I find it interesting that more hunter are more interested in the language that their camp staff are speaking, than is their outfitter licensed to hunt in the country you are hunting in? Or is the front company there just to provide a semblance of being legal.

Times have changed.

This is just because we're easily distracte...ooh, that dog has a puffy tail!

 

[Sideshow]

@Sideshow
Come to Australia and try and pick up our slang mate. It will make your head swim.
That bloke is quicker than a seagull on a hot chip.
Try explaining don't come the raw prawn ya bludger or I'll snot ya.
We're a weird mob Down here.
Bob

Fair suck of the sav….eh is that the Australian Hakka or have you stuffed your wallet down ya budgie smugglers?
Did seven months up in Broome on me way to the uk back in 96 that got the ear in

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Fair suck of the sav….eh is that the Australian Hakka or have you stuffed your wallet down ya budgie smugglers?
Did seven months up in Broome on me way to the uk back in 96 that got the ear in

@Sideshow
Mate you sound like a bit of a galah but at least you have tried to grasp our lingo.
How did you handle our cold piss compared to that room temp crap you have.
Some of our beers are best strained thru a pair of dirty Reg Grundys to make them drinkable.
When you hunted over here did you use the mark one meat pie or a range finder.
As I get older I find I need a good set of far lookers to locate game. Once located its usually stalked using the old foot falcon. Problem is on hot days and steep hills it coughs and splutters a bit. This is usually fixed at the end of the day by consuming a few tinnies around the bush TV.
HA HA HA HA HA HA
Bob
Figure that one out mate.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

This is a long answer but it's not a simple subject.

You have mentioned the Lacey Act a couple of times. I have not hunted in Africa yet, but I have a pretty good amount of experience representing clients charged in Alaska with Lacey Act violations. It's nothing to mess around with.

There are many aspects to the Lacey Act but the one I see most commonly is people who violate local fish and game laws and then ship an item in interstate or foreign commerce. If the value of an item is >$350, it's a felony. So in my neck of the woods, someone shoots a bear illegally and ships the bear hide back home, if the value of the bear hide is >$350, it's a felony. How do they determine it's >$350? Because Alaska wildlife troopers auction off seized horns and hides, including DLP (defense of life and property horns and hides, every year. And bear hides routinely go for more than $350.

Alaska game laws are complex. There are 26 game management units and those are broken down into further sub-units. The laws, including seasons, legality of animals, and methods of taking them vary from sub unit to sub unit and sometimes even within a sub unit. Generally, I don't see naive clients get charged. That is, if an unscrupulous guide dupes a client, the client is not likely to get charged. BUT ... federal fish and wildlife agents will visit the client, the client will have to give up any trophies that were obtained in violation of state law, and client might be a witness against a guide. Usually, though, clients know.

As one example, I represented a client who was charged with conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act. She and her son had an interior brown bear hunt. Flew out with the guide on August 9. Season started August 10. Alaska has strict laws against hunting the same day you are airborne in a charter flight, i.e., flying from Anchorage to Bethel aboard Alaska Air does not prohibit you from hunting that day but hopping on a bush plan to land at your campsite will prohibit you from hunting that day. These two hunters flew from Fairbanks early on August 9 and set up camp. While setting up camp, they see a really nice brown bear. Guide says, "We may not get another chance like this again." So they go after it. Son shoots it and she signs a statement that the bear was taken on August 10. Bear hide is shipped to their home outside Alaska. One of the guide's employees tells the feds. Can't remember if he was under investigation or if he just went to them. Tipped them onto this guide. They did a big investigation. Guide cops to a lot of violations and brings up this client. Client gets charged because bear was taken out of season and after same day flying. We resolved it for a misdemeanor because she was not the one who pulled the trigger but as part of her agreement, she could not hunt in the US for 5 years but she was able to keep her gun rights.

So, what can you learn from this?
1. In my experience, clients frequently know when they are breaking the law. In the example given by OP, the client went from one country to another. That should have been a huge red flag even if the client knew nothing else.
2. Clients have an independent responsibility to familiarize themselves with the game laws of where they are going. Alaska's laws, for example, are easily accessible online. I would anticipate one could likewise find the applicable laws for the countries where one is going to hunt. One aspect of pre-hunt preparation should be reviewing the game laws.
3. This guide had a good reputation prior to this event but he was willing to bend the laws when the opportunity presented itself. The investigation showed this was not the first time or the only time. So if you are a client, you should do your due diligence in hiring a reputable guide but also recognize that even PHs and guides with good reputations might recommend doing something illegal. Due diligence would mean: ensuring the PH is properly licensed; checking references; seeing if the PH is in reputable professional organizations, such as SCI.
4. One thing I've learned in this business is that in the right circumstances, anyone is capable of anything. And if you've scrimped and saved for years for your dream hunting trip to Africa and you see a kudu of a lifetime but you can't shoot it, don't blithely say you wouldn't pull the trigger. Say you hope you wouldn't and pray you aren't put in that situation.
5. If, God forbid, you do something stupid and 6 months later or 2 years later federal fish and wildlife agents show up on your door, SHUT YOUR MOUTH. DO NOT TALK WITH THEM. Get their contact information, such as their card, and get an attorney IMMEDIATELY. Get an attorney that has experience with federal criminal charges and with Lacey Act cases in particular and have your attorney reach out to the agents.

Lastly, irrespective of any legal advice, I'll say it isn't worth it. Not just for the risk of prosecution, which is real, but also for the trophy. Every time you see that trophy, you will know you cheated and that greatly diminishes the enjoyment of any illegally gained trophy.

#4 happened to me last year. Kudu bull of a lifetime standing 200 yards for five minutes. Very cool but PH was unsure if it was on our man's property. My gun never came out of the soft case. It wasn't even a consideration ... by any of us. Turns out the bull was on our guy's land and he was okay with shooting them. Oh well. It was nice to see one like that. I eventually had to settle for only a 44" bull but he does have pretty horns. Works for me.

 

[Sideshow]

@Sideshow
Mate you sound like a bit of a galah but at least you have tried to grasp our lingo.
How did you handle our cold piss compared to that room temp crap you have.
Some of our beers are best strained thru a pair of dirty Reg Grundys to make them drinkable.
When you hunted over here did you use the mark one meat pie or a range finder.
As I get older I find I need a good set of far lookers to locate game. Once located its usually stalked using the old foot falcon. Problem is on hot days and steep hills it coughs and splutters a bit. This is usually fixed at the end of the day by consuming a few tinnies around the bush TV.
HA HA HA HA HA HA
Bob
Figure that one out mate.

Hey Bob lol I’m not English…..I’m a Kiwi….mind you some of this English beer is rather good….much better than a VB

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hey Bob lol I’m not English…..I’m a Kiwi….mind you some of this English beer is rather good….much better than a VB

@Sideshow
Sorry mate I thought you were a to and from.
The only decent beer in England is Carling, at least they serve it cold.
You Kiwis is a stranger mob than us with your, Chully Buns, Fush and chups, jandlels, and we won't mention the dicks you have at the back of the house for barbys. There's a lot of big dicks in NZ, they even wrote a song about them called I've got a big deck (Deck is pronounced dick in NZ)
By the way VB stands for very best. Well only if you like it , I prefer XXXX Gold.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hey Bob lol I’m not English…..I’m a Kiwi….mind you some of this English beer is rather good….much better than a VB

@Sideshow
Ifn you ain't a pom how come your profile says you is from da UK.
You have me confused, but that isn't hard
Bob

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

This is a long answer but it's not a simple subject.

You have mentioned the Lacey Act a couple of times. I have not hunted in Africa yet, but I have a pretty good amount of experience representing clients charged in Alaska with Lacey Act violations. It's nothing to mess around with.

There are many aspects to the Lacey Act but the one I see most commonly is people who violate local fish and game laws and then ship an item in interstate or foreign commerce. If the value of an item is >$350, it's a felony. So in my neck of the woods, someone shoots a bear illegally and ships the bear hide back home, if the value of the bear hide is >$350, it's a felony. How do they determine it's >$350? Because Alaska wildlife troopers auction off seized horns and hides, including DLP (defense of life and property horns and hides, every year. And bear hides routinely go for more than $350.

Alaska game laws are complex. There are 26 game management units and those are broken down into further sub-units. The laws, including seasons, legality of animals, and methods of taking them vary from sub unit to sub unit and sometimes even within a sub unit. Generally, I don't see naive clients get charged. That is, if an unscrupulous guide dupes a client, the client is not likely to get charged. BUT ... federal fish and wildlife agents will visit the client, the client will have to give up any trophies that were obtained in violation of state law, and client might be a witness against a guide. Usually, though, clients know.

As one example, I represented a client who was charged with conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act. She and her son had an interior brown bear hunt. Flew out with the guide on August 9. Season started August 10. Alaska has strict laws against hunting the same day you are airborne in a charter flight, i.e., flying from Anchorage to Bethel aboard Alaska Air does not prohibit you from hunting that day but hopping on a bush plan to land at your campsite will prohibit you from hunting that day. These two hunters flew from Fairbanks early on August 9 and set up camp. While setting up camp, they see a really nice brown bear. Guide says, "We may not get another chance like this again." So they go after it. Son shoots it and she signs a statement that the bear was taken on August 10. Bear hide is shipped to their home outside Alaska. One of the guide's employees tells the feds. Can't remember if he was under investigation or if he just went to them. Tipped them onto this guide. They did a big investigation. Guide cops to a lot of violations and brings up this client. Client gets charged because bear was taken out of season and after same day flying. We resolved it for a misdemeanor because she was not the one who pulled the trigger but as part of her agreement, she could not hunt in the US for 5 years but she was able to keep her gun rights.

So, what can you learn from this?
1. In my experience, clients frequently know when they are breaking the law. In the example given by OP, the client went from one country to another. That should have been a huge red flag even if the client knew nothing else.
2. Clients have an independent responsibility to familiarize themselves with the game laws of where they are going. Alaska's laws, for example, are easily accessible online. I would anticipate one could likewise find the applicable laws for the countries where one is going to hunt. One aspect of pre-hunt preparation should be reviewing the game laws.
3. This guide had a good reputation prior to this event but he was willing to bend the laws when the opportunity presented itself. The investigation showed this was not the first time or the only time. So if you are a client, you should do your due diligence in hiring a reputable guide but also recognize that even PHs and guides with good reputations might recommend doing something illegal. Due diligence would mean: ensuring the PH is properly licensed; checking references; seeing if the PH is in reputable professional organizations, such as SCI.
4. One thing I've learned in this business is that in the right circumstances, anyone is capable of anything. And if you've scrimped and saved for years for your dream hunting trip to Africa and you see a kudu of a lifetime but you can't shoot it, don't blithely say you wouldn't pull the trigger. Say you hope you wouldn't and pray you aren't put in that situation.
5. If, God forbid, you do something stupid and 6 months later or 2 years later federal fish and wildlife agents show up on your door, SHUT YOUR MOUTH. DO NOT TALK WITH THEM. Get their contact information, such as their card, and get an attorney IMMEDIATELY. Get an attorney that has experience with federal criminal charges and with Lacey Act cases in particular and have your attorney reach out to the agents.

Lastly, irrespective of any legal advice, I'll say it isn't worth it. Not just for the risk of prosecution, which is real, but also for the trophy. Every time you see that trophy, you will know you cheated and that greatly diminishes the enjoyment of any illegally gained trophy.

Hi, What great advice. A question, can a non US citizen be charged for a violation of the Lacey Act? I have known hunters who think their money can buy them out of any situation, unfortunately in many cases that is true.

 

[Ridge Runner]

@Sideshow
Sorry mate I thought you were a to and from.
The only decent beer in England is Carling, at least they serve it cold.
You Kiwis is a stranger mob than us with your, Chully Buns, Fush and chups, jandlels, and we won't mention the dicks you have at the back of the house for barbys. There's a lot of big dicks in NZ, they even wrote a song about them called I've got a big deck (Deck is pronounced dick in NZ)
By the way VB stands for very best. Well only if you like it , I prefer XXXX Gold.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Bob

Gotta say I thought British terms were a bit strange NZ has them beat.

Would definitely explain Crocodile Dundee's, "....just checking...". Should a girl ask a fellow to check out her dick.

Reminded me of an army buddy, deep southern backwoods where a fur ren nir (foreigner) is everyone outside of his county. Think of Jim Neighbors' Gomer Pyle, USMC, but an Army version.

On his first trip to England. He had met a nice local girl and had taken a liking to her. "Had" being the key word. As he was getting ready to return to duty she asked him to give her a ring and knock her up.

Surprized at having just met that she was so farward and all. He wasn't going to see her any more. That is until we got done LOAO, and told him she meant for him to call her and meet her at her place.

 

[geoff rath]

Hey Bob lol I’m not English…..I’m a Kiwi….mind you some of this English beer is rather good….much better than a VB

Horse P^^S is better than VB, IMHO

 

[Philip Glass]

There are many stories of RSA PH's doing less than legal hunts in other countries. The hero worship of PH's by especially first time clients baffles me. I want to go hunt with people from the country I am visiting. I want to make new friends and see new places. I don't need my first PH to take me by the hand for the rest of my life!

 

[Hunt anything]

There are many stories of RSA PH's doing less than legal hunts in other countries. The hero worship of PH's by especially first time clients baffles me. I want to go hunt with people from the country I am visiting. I want to make new friends and see new places. I don't need my first PH to take me by the hand for the rest of my life!

Agree wholeheartedly but it seems many of the PH’s in central Africa are French, in Mozambique they seem to be Zimbabwean or South African. I would much prefer to hunt with a PH born in the country I’m hunting in but sometimes it’s unavoidable.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

There are many stories of RSA PH's doing less than legal hunts in other countries. The hero worship of PH's by especially first time clients baffles me. I want to go hunt with people from the country I am visiting. I want to make new friends and see new places. I don't need my first PH to take me by the hand for the rest of my life!

Hi Phil,

There are those that will not hunt unless they can bring their personal PH with them.

We have no problem as long as they follow the rules:
Pay full daily fee
No firearm allowed
Not allowed outside of camp
Not allowed in hunting vehicle