Would you hunt with a operator hunting illegaly?

Here is a recent event.

My neighbor send a runner over to me and says there is a hunter who wants to see me. I already knew that 2 cruisers had arrived in the area.
1. Was a older landcruiser worn narrow tyres. Perfect for Zim + black zim ph

2. Fairly new landcruiser + non legal operator+ cliient.

The operator asked me a few questions and then informed me that he was having problems in the vic falls area so he was moving his operations next door to us.
I asked him where he was going to get his permit since We buy all of the permits for this area. After that he changed tact telling me he would bring 8 hunters to me for hipppo & Croc. I told him he would not be sending anyone to me. He asked why I told him that we do not have even half that number of permits his reply was the clients will never know. I told him to F off.

They left the next morning, the blacks in the old zim cruiser and the other new one with big tyres, aluminum wheels, 2 rifles in rack,
Oh, I almost forgot no number plate

Praying for your quick recovery. Kick cancer in the nuts!

Based on this example, you saved some hunters from being screwed by those Zim PHs who wanted to hunt your area. Probably the hunters never knew this was going to be a legal/illegal hunt, or how closed they came from being robbed.

Checking out an outfitter and checking references here is a good practice. However, how many of us have asked to see their licenses, permits, or whatever is necessary for this outfitter to operate legally? Do we trust too much?

I've only hunted in three places in SA. Two of the three in my opinion were operated in a professional manner. The other one, I learned after hunting there, that they couldn't keep PHs for more than one season. Not sure and couldn't find out the reasons. I imagine it could a boat load of things. One issue that I remember from this outfitter was trying to find a kudu. It took me 4 days of hard hunting to finally get my kudu. However, during one of those days, we went and sat on a blind (my wife has issues walking for long distance, and she needed a break), a few minutes later a vehicle approached and dumped a bunch of food on the ground, the vehicle had not left the area when kudu approached from every direction. The PH picked one and told me to shoot. I refused to shoot and told him the hunt was over. He seemed upset, and I had a serious talk with the owner. I told him that I had come to Africa to hunt and not shoot fish in a barrel. He understood and apologized. Whether his apologies were genuine or not, I'll never know. Probably that is a legal hunt in that area, but in my eyes, it was not ethical. Those kudus were condition to respond to the truck and the food.
 
A similar question. Will you hunt illegally on your own, and on your own property?

A friend of mine recently tried for 6 months to get a destruction permit for a leopard catching his Bonsmara calves. KZN Nature conservation/ Ezemvelo wildlife did nothing, even though on two occasions they confirmed kills by the same male leopard. The rangers who did this tried their utmost to motivate for him to get a permit. The fools in the office did nothing.

End result the leopard met a 180gr .30-06 bullet in the shoulder, the farmer kept the scull and dug a deep hole with his TLB, and disposed of the carcass. That was 26 calves later. I would have done the same, only much sooner.
 
A similar question. Will you hunt illegally on your own, and on your own property?

A friend of mine recently tried for 6 months to get a destruction permit for a leopard catching his Bonsmara calves. KZN Nature conservation/ Ezemvelo wildlife did nothing, even though on two occasions they confirmed kills by the same male leopard. The rangers who did this tried their utmost to motivate for him to get a permit. The fools in the office did nothing.

End result the leopard met a 180gr .30-06 bullet in the shoulder, the farmer kept the scull and dug a deep hole with his TLB, and disposed of the carcass. That was 26 calves later. I would have done the same, only much sooner.

Yup

Fair one
 
Hi Para,
The PHs that were hunting were not Zim Phs.
 
Copy, my apologies if I misread your post. (y) (y)
 
When a hunt starts as an illegal hunt, it is ill
A similar question. Will you hunt illegally on your own, and on your own property?

A friend of mine recently tried for 6 months to get a destruction permit for a leopard catching his Bonsmara calves. KZN Nature conservation/ Ezemvelo wildlife did nothing, even though on two occasions they confirmed kills by the same male leopard. The rangers who did this tried their utmost to motivate for him to get a permit. The fools in the office did nothing.

End result the leopard met a 180gr .30-06 bullet in the shoulder, the farmer kept the scull and dug a deep hole with his TLB, and disposed of the carcass. That was 26 calves later. I would have done the same, only much sooner.
i agree with the rancher. Now if the rancher who may or not be a PH. Comes up with a story and sells that hunt as Don’t worry it will be ok and when they start issuing permits we will get you a export permit.

You vote on second scenario, illegal or ethics?

What should the penalty be for the hunter?
 
When a hunt starts as an illegal hunt, it is ill

i agree with the rancher. Now if the rancher who may or not be a PH. Comes up with a story and sells that hunt as Don’t worry it will be ok and when they start issuing permits we will get you a export permit.

You vote on second scenario, illegal or ethics?

What should the penalty be for the hunter?

That happened to a friend of mine, permit never came.
 
This is a long answer but it's not a simple subject.

You have mentioned the Lacey Act a couple of times. I have not hunted in Africa yet, but I have a pretty good amount of experience representing clients charged in Alaska with Lacey Act violations. It's nothing to mess around with.

There are many aspects to the Lacey Act but the one I see most commonly is people who violate local fish and game laws and then ship an item in interstate or foreign commerce. If the value of an item is >$350, it's a felony. So in my neck of the woods, someone shoots a bear illegally and ships the bear hide back home, if the value of the bear hide is >$350, it's a felony. How do they determine it's >$350? Because Alaska wildlife troopers auction off seized horns and hides, including DLP (defense of life and property horns and hides, every year. And bear hides routinely go for more than $350.

Alaska game laws are complex. There are 26 game management units and those are broken down into further sub-units. The laws, including seasons, legality of animals, and methods of taking them vary from sub unit to sub unit and sometimes even within a sub unit. Generally, I don't see naive clients get charged. That is, if an unscrupulous guide dupes a client, the client is not likely to get charged. BUT ... federal fish and wildlife agents will visit the client, the client will have to give up any trophies that were obtained in violation of state law, and client might be a witness against a guide. Usually, though, clients know.

As one example, I represented a client who was charged with conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act. She and her son had an interior brown bear hunt. Flew out with the guide on August 9. Season started August 10. Alaska has strict laws against hunting the same day you are airborne in a charter flight, i.e., flying from Anchorage to Bethel aboard Alaska Air does not prohibit you from hunting that day but hopping on a bush plan to land at your campsite will prohibit you from hunting that day. These two hunters flew from Fairbanks early on August 9 and set up camp. While setting up camp, they see a really nice brown bear. Guide says, "We may not get another chance like this again." So they go after it. Son shoots it and she signs a statement that the bear was taken on August 10. Bear hide is shipped to their home outside Alaska. One of the guide's employees tells the feds. Can't remember if he was under investigation or if he just went to them. Tipped them onto this guide. They did a big investigation. Guide cops to a lot of violations and brings up this client. Client gets charged because bear was taken out of season and after same day flying. We resolved it for a misdemeanor because she was not the one who pulled the trigger but as part of her agreement, she could not hunt in the US for 5 years but she was able to keep her gun rights.

So, what can you learn from this?
1. In my experience, clients frequently know when they are breaking the law. In the example given by OP, the client went from one country to another. That should have been a huge red flag even if the client knew nothing else.
2. Clients have an independent responsibility to familiarize themselves with the game laws of where they are going. Alaska's laws, for example, are easily accessible online. I would anticipate one could likewise find the applicable laws for the countries where one is going to hunt. One aspect of pre-hunt preparation should be reviewing the game laws.
3. This guide had a good reputation prior to this event but he was willing to bend the laws when the opportunity presented itself. The investigation showed this was not the first time or the only time. So if you are a client, you should do your due diligence in hiring a reputable guide but also recognize that even PHs and guides with good reputations might recommend doing something illegal. Due diligence would mean: ensuring the PH is properly licensed; checking references; seeing if the PH is in reputable professional organizations, such as SCI.
4. One thing I've learned in this business is that in the right circumstances, anyone is capable of anything. And if you've scrimped and saved for years for your dream hunting trip to Africa and you see a kudu of a lifetime but you can't shoot it, don't blithely say you wouldn't pull the trigger. Say you hope you wouldn't and pray you aren't put in that situation.
5. If, God forbid, you do something stupid and 6 months later or 2 years later federal fish and wildlife agents show up on your door, SHUT YOUR MOUTH. DO NOT TALK WITH THEM. Get their contact information, such as their card, and get an attorney IMMEDIATELY. Get an attorney that has experience with federal criminal charges and with Lacey Act cases in particular and have your attorney reach out to the agents.

Lastly, irrespective of any legal advice, I'll say it isn't worth it. Not just for the risk of prosecution, which is real, but also for the trophy. Every time you see that trophy, you will know you cheated and that greatly diminishes the enjoyment of any illegally gained trophy.
Good advice regarding “keep you mouth shut”. Also, don’t shoot anything illegally as it will take away from any feeling of accomplishment regardless of how BIG the trophy. PLUS - you can get in a lot of trouble. If you can’t follow the laws or resist “temptation” - don’t hunt. Regarding the legal advice given a few posts earlier, I agree, Hunters should follow and respect all the game laws but still keep their mouths shut and/or get a Lawyer if they get in trouble. In Alaska especially, $$ from fines is used to fund Fish & Wildlife - it is a critical revenue stream vs. just “punishment” and fines can be hefty. An Outfitter involved in a violation can have their plane confiscated and other equipment, Hunters lose their rifle, boat etc.. It’s a big deal, so if a mistake is made - get a lawyer
 
I have given a lot of thought to even starting this post. I have reached a stage in my life where I would like to bring a few things to light. That some members especially the average working guy, who we always directed our hunts too.I will be posting a few stories. As far as I know I will not mention any sponsors.

Lon
Not sure if this qualifies to your “legal/illegal” but during my Tanzania Safari I wounded & lost Cape buffalo (thought the 75 yrd shot was good - but not good enough). We blood trailed for 5-6 hours before blood stopped. Went back next morning and no luck. Then the Government Agent approached my PH and asked for “$200 US” to forget the whole thing and not charge the trophy fee. My PH refused and told Government Agent to fill out the paperwork and that I would pay the trophy fee ($1100 in 2006). That evening the Government Agent was “pissed” and later informed PH that we would Not be allowed to hunt for Hyena - for reasons unknown. So we were “punished” for following the Law. Had we paid off the Agent - that’s likely against the law (who know?). Two days later the Government Agent came down with very bad diarrhea - I gave him some of my Imodium...the next day the “Hyena season opened again”. I think I did the right thing but had he threatened to close the buffalo season or Zebra etc....I’m not so sure how it would’ve been handled - certainly I’d have expected my PH to “Figure it out” or file complaint with the Government etc..
 
The more I read this, I do not understand the intent of this thread. Nothing of substance was ever provided to make someone choose a hunt differently. Just two vague examples and a lot of hints and mentions of Lacey Act. If this was the intent it shouldn’t have even been started.
 
Hi, What great advice. A question, can a non US citizen be charged for a violation of the Lacey Act? I have known hunters who think their money can buy them out of any situation, unfortunately in many cases that is true.
Good question. Short answer, yes but it would have to be related to conduct within the US somehow. Put another way, if an Aussie hunts in Africa illegally and sends illegally taken items back to Australia, I don't see how the US would have jurisdiction. On the other hand, if the Aussie were to ship illegally taken items from Africa to the United States, then I think that the US would have jurisdiction.

As far as money buying them out of a situation, that depends on how you define that. I don't see out and out bribery in federal fish and wildlife cases. Or in state wildlife cases in my state, for that matter. But I do see some instances in which a defendant with money pays a very large fine instead of getting jail time. That is just part of settlement negotiations. You can give up money or give up time. And if you don't have money, then you're limited to just giving up time. That option, though, is usually reserved for more regulatory issues. So, someone is facing investigation for paperwork-related charges might be offered that choice. Someone with money facing drug charges would likely have to pay a fine and do prison time.
 
So funny…how this thread went from illegal hunting to talking about native language is beyond me…lol!!!
 
So funny…how this thread went from illegal hunting to talking about native language is beyond me…lol!!!
What do you expect when these are the type of answers given? I can’t understand the intention of why this thread was started if no clarification will be given. The stories appear equal parts real and hypothetical, but there is no value without clarifications of what to look for when booking. I’ve seen nothing so far that would make a person look for hunt differently or question if hunts are legal.
IMG_2446.png
 
To clarify for Lon…his point is there are outfitters out there that would not hesitate to suddenly set up an illegal hunt sometimes on the spur of the moment. His unspoken point is how do unsuspecting hunters find out about this in advance so they do not fall into this trap with this type of outfitter. Lon by all means weigh in if I missed the point of your thread
 
Lon makes this point not wanting to specifically call out some of his peers publicly due to his professionalism. I got his message loud and clear… no mystery on the start of his thread
 
NO I wouldn't hunt with an operator illegally.

However, how would I know?

This thread should not be about ethics or personal choices it should be about how to figure out if someone is operating illegally.
 
To clarify for Lon…his point is there are outfitters out there that would not hesitate to suddenly set up an illegal hunt sometimes on the spur of the moment. His unspoken point is how do unsuspecting hunters find out about this in advance so they do not fall into this trap with this type of outfitter. Lon by all means weigh in if I missed the point of your thread
I’m sure that was his point, but well thought out threads/posts get well thought posts in return. I’ve seen nothing so far that would educate someone how to choose those operating legally from those operating illegally.
 

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Grz63 wrote on roklok's profile.
Hi Roklok
I read your post on Caprivi. Congratulations.
I plan to hunt there for buff in 2026 oct.
How was the land, very dry ? But à lot of buffs ?
Thank you / merci
Philippe
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Chopped up the whole thing as I kept hitting the 240 character limit...
Found out the trigger word in the end... It was muzzle or velocity. dropped them and it posted.:)
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2,822fps, ES 8.2
This compares favorably to 7 Rem Mag. with less powder & recoil.
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*PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS FOR MY RIFLE, ALWAYS APPROACH A NEW LOAD CAUTIOUSLY!!*
Rifle is a Pierce long action, 32" 1:8.5 twist Swan{Au} barrel
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Fire Dog wrote on AfricaHunting.com's profile.
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I am shooting F Open long range rather than hunting but here is what is working for me and I have managed a 198.14 at 800 meters.
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