Politics

[Rocked and Loaded]

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

View attachment 621510

Exactly. People have been sacrificing people (including children) for millennia and the reason hasn’t really changed. All done in self interest.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Neither was Obama, who spent a lot of money having his records sealed.

View attachment 621499

This is false, Kamala was born in California and it doesn’t matter what her parents status was. We ought to change that law ( amendment).

 

[Ridge Runner]

IIRC, The President and Vice President Must Be US born citizens, can not hold or have held a foreign title....

Thus why Arnold Swartzenhager was ineligible to be nominated or run for President.

 

[Aaron N]

This is false, Kamala was born in California and it doesn’t matter what her parents status was. We ought to change that law ( amendment).

Aren’t all citizens equals?

 

[LivingTheDream]

So what happens to the unused viable embryos? There have to be some right? You said they fertilize multiple eggs at one time and on day 5 report how many are embryos. A woman only wants 2 kids but produces 5 viable embryos. Do they just test one at a time and if viable implant it or do they test all at once?

Am I missing something here?

So they test all at once. So if she had 5 get to day 5 and they all came back viable, then they select one and do a transfer. If she both transfers were successful, and she would have 3 others, they could be frozen indefinitely, donated to another couple or discarded.

So to your point, I'm sure it does happen. But statistically speaking it would be extremely rare. For example transfers with a viable embryo have about a 60% success rate.

As an example:
Round 1 - 10 eggs, 9 Fertilized, 1 Embryo, Tested Non Viable
Round 2 - 4 eggs, 4 Fertilized, 4 Embryo, 2 Viable, 2 Non Viable, 1 Successful Transfer, 1 Fail Transfer
Round 3 - 8 eggs, 7 Fertilized, 0 Embryos

Another couple I know
Round 1 - 17 eggs, 11 Fertilized, 1 Embryo , Tested Non Viable
Round 2 - 16 eggs, 11 Fertilized, 3 Embryos, 1 Non-Viable, 1 Successful Transfer, 1 Viable still frozen.

I can run off more of these, but wanted to show how the numbers drop and drop fast. The other couples I know have no viable embryos left. You pretty much keep doing it until you have no available viable embryos left.

Not sure this helps at all, but hope it provides a little bit more information.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I also realize I may have come off as harsh towards @LivingTheDream and I’d like to apologize for that.

No worries man, we all have our opinions. I do appreciate the apology as I was trying to explain from a good place.

 

[Tanks]

Neither was Obama, who spent a lot of money having his records sealed.

View attachment 621499

Not this crap again, Kamala is a natural born citizen. Her parents’ status does not matter.

 

[spike.t]

Kamala Harris slams Trump over 'fear and hate' at first rally

The Democratic White House candidate promises "freedom, compassion and rule of law" to a cheering crowd in Wisconsin.

www.bbc.com

 

[spike.t]

Has Kamala Harris got what it takes to beat Donald Trump?

Becoming the Democratic nominee may be the easy part. The hard part will be taking on the Republican in November.

www.bbc.com

 

[spike.t]

Bit of info for the people wondering about what is causing the rioting etc in Bangladesh......

Bangladesh student protests: Why is the government facing public anger?

More than 100 people are dead in spreading unrest after a policy on government jobs sparked mass protests.

www.bbc.com

 

[spike.t]

Drenched in blood - how Bangladesh protests turned deadly

At least 150 people have been killed - some of those caught up in the bloodshed describe what happened.

www.bbc.com

 

[spike.t]

Why tech bros are backing Trump

The Republican presidential candidate is forging new alliances as his campaign gains momentum.

www.bbc.com

 

[Scott CWO]

If you view an embryo as a human life then IVF can not be ethical as the discarding of them would violate the do no harm principle. I don’t have to participate in euthanasia either in order to condemn it.

I would imagine you’re right. They are wrong nonetheless.

All people doing IVF are not the same or going about it the same way. Many of your assumptions are incorrect and don’t apply to everyone doing IVF.

I met my wife after she applied for a job and was hired by my boss at a company where I was also a manager. She was a recently divorced mother of two great kids. She left an abusive marriage, which took a lot of strength, considering she had a 3.5 year-old daughter and a 1.5 year-old son. We started dating and I developed a love for her and her kids. Unfortunately, she had a tubal ligation after her son was born. Later, we decided to get married and she agreed beforehand to try IVF with me. I wanted kids of my own. I am the oldest son of my parents and my dad and my grandfather were also the oldest sons of their parents. I wanted to carryon the family name with a son of my own. Adoption wasn’t desired by me as I already had two stepchildren from her that I raised as if they were/are my own and we also wanted children together.

Being Christians, we spoke with our Pastor about IVF and came up with a plan that the doctors were very happy to comply with. My wife took the hormone shots and produced several eggs. Four eggs were fertilized with my sperm. Three became viable embryos while one was said to be unviable. According to the plan, all four were implanted and we accepted the risks of a multiple birth. We left that up to God. Later, we learned that two of the embryos successfully implanted. Our twins (boy and girl) were born six weeks early but made it home safely a couple weeks later. Both of them are entirely healthy, happy, successful adults now and all four of our kids are very close to us and each other.

As with anything, there is more than one way to do things and I don’t believe IVF should be outlawed or looked down upon just because some people might not do it the way we did. We feel we did it right, according to our beliefs, and couples with our beliefs shouldn’t be prevented from doing IVF the same way we did it.

As for the other unfertilized eggs, we kept them frozen for several years in case something happened to the twins and in case we wanted more kids. Fortunately the twins were healthy so we had the eggs discarded and did not donate them to other women who could have used them. All of these choices were offered to us but we did everything our own way. We didn’t discard any embryos. Eggs are not embryos and obviously, a woman naturally discards at least one egg each month anyway. As for sperm, I’ve naturally discarded lots of sperm and I’m going to guess that you have done the same! Lol.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Thanks for sharing that Scott. I don’t really want to get into the abortion debate on the internet with strangers. But here it goes anyway

I do not like abortion. IVF should not be in the same conversation as abortion. That is where conservatives go off the deep end.


I also do not believe in the government carrying out the death penalty. ( the government and justice system is not competent enough for that role)

I certainly believe some deserve to die for certain deeds.

But too many biased government entities taint the process. I would personally carry out a death sentence for those that deserve it. But I do not believe the government system has been 100% fair or competent.

So I believe the government should stay out of playing god.

 

[skydiver386]

Bit of info for the people wondering about what is causing the rioting etc in Bangladesh......

Bangladesh student protests: Why is the government facing public anger?

More than 100 people are dead in spreading unrest after a policy on government jobs sparked mass protests.

www.bbc.com

Hmmmm. They are demanding hiring and promotions based on merit, not quotas? Perhaps a conversation with a Democrat might show them the error of their ways. Diversity and inclusion based on sexual preference, etc., is far more important.

 

[sgt_zim]

Not this crap again, Kamala is a natural born citizen. Her parents’ status does not matter.

It should. In most of the world, jus sanguinis is the rule where at least 1 parent had to be a citizen of the country where the child is born. A great many of them require both parents to be citizens. For the US, at least, this would put a halt to much of our illegal immigration, I think.

I'm not sure why, but almost all the countries that grant jus soli (birthright) citizenship are in the western hemisphere. Maybe a throwback to the days of colonialism?

 

[WAB]

Aren’t all citizens equals?

Absolutely not. A naturalized citizen is ineligible to be president or vice president.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

All people doing IVF are not the same or going about it the same way. Many of your assumptions are incorrect and don’t apply to everyone doing IVF.

I met my wife after she applied for a job and was hired by my boss at a company where I was also a manager. She was a recently divorced mother of two great kids. She left an abusive marriage, which took a lot of strength, considering she had a 3.5 year-old daughter and a 1.5 year-old son. We started dating and I developed a love for her and her kids. Unfortunately, she had a tubal ligation after her son was born. Later, we decided to get married and she agreed beforehand to try IVF with me. I wanted kids of my own. I am the oldest son of my parents and my dad and my grandfather were also the oldest sons of their parents. I wanted to carryon the family name with a son of my own. Adoption wasn’t desired by me as I already had two stepchildren from her that I raised as if they were/are my own and we also wanted children together.

Being Christians, we spoke with our Pastor about IVF and came up with a plan that the doctors were very happy to comply with. My wife took the hormone shots and produced several eggs. Four eggs were fertilized with my sperm. Three became viable embryos while one was said to be unviable. According to the plan, all four were implanted and we accepted the risks of a multiple birth. We left that up to God. Later, we learned that two of the embryos successfully implanted. Our twins (boy and girl) were born six weeks early but made it home safely a couple weeks later. Both of them are entirely healthy, happy, successful adults now and all four of our kids are very close to us and each other.

As with anything, there is more than one way to do things and I don’t believe IVF should be outlawed or looked down upon just because some people might not do it the way we did. We feel we did it right, according to our beliefs, and couples with our beliefs shouldn’t be prevented from doing IVF the same way we did it.

As for the other unfertilized eggs, we kept them frozen for several years in case something happened to the twins and in case we wanted more kids. Fortunately the twins were healthy so we had the eggs discarded and did not donate them to other women who could have used them. All of these choices were offered to us but we did everything our own way. We didn’t discard any embryos. Eggs are not embryos and obviously, a woman naturally discards at least one egg each month anyway. As for sperm, I’ve naturally discarded lots of sperm and I’m going to guess that you have done the same! Lol.

I’m genuinely happy for you and your wife. I mean that sincerely.

For me, the trade offs (the potential misuses and abuses both real and imagined along with other aforementioned issues) do not justify it and therefore I can’t condone it.

 

[CJW]

So they test all at once. So if she had 5 get to day 5 and they all came back viable, then they select one and do a transfer. If she both transfers were successful, and she would have 3 others, they could be frozen indefinitely, donated to another couple or discarded.

So to your point, I'm sure it does happen. But statistically speaking it would be extremely rare. For example transfers with a viable embryo have about a 60% success rate.

As an example:
Round 1 - 10 eggs, 9 Fertilized, 1 Embryo, Tested Non Viable
Round 2 - 4 eggs, 4 Fertilized, 4 Embryo, 2 Viable, 2 Non Viable, 1 Successful Transfer, 1 Fail Transfer
Round 3 - 8 eggs, 7 Fertilized, 0 Embryos

Another couple I know
Round 1 - 17 eggs, 11 Fertilized, 1 Embryo , Tested Non Viable
Round 2 - 16 eggs, 11 Fertilized, 3 Embryos, 1 Non-Viable, 1 Successful Transfer, 1 Viable still frozen.

I can run off more of these, but wanted to show how the numbers drop and drop fast. The other couples I know have no viable embryos left. You pretty much keep doing it until you have no available viable embryos left.

Not sure this helps at all, but hope it provides a little bit more information.

Thank you for the truthful, informative explanations. I hope I didn't come off as harsh in the previous post. I really did read your post a dozen times looking for the outcome of the possibly viable embryos, and pinning down rock solid information on the internet isn't always easy. Aggravating really.

IVF is not an easy, stress free or cheap process that's for sure.

I'll say this for the last time and I'll probably sound like a dismissive jerk for it but it gets back to my original point. With the information laid out here and regardless of how few times something may happen, it does happen and some have a problem with it. Some fear for present and future abuses. Best case scenario IMO is @Scott CWO and his wife.

Personally I cannot dismiss an embryo as not a human life. It just doesn't make logical sense to me. It may be a life that doesn't meet the best final outcome, but a stage of the miraculous thing called life, no matter how brief or seemingly insignificant, it definitely is.

That said, regardless of some people's assumptions, I am not at this point in my life totally against IVF if done responsibly.

Thank you for being civil and honest.