Politics

Life starts at conception. What about surrogacy? What about the buying and selling of eggs or sperm? I’m sorry but it’s not ethical or moral in the least. I know it’s worked well for some good people but what sounds amazing and compassionate in theory or at first glance is often not the right thing to do when you look at the bigger picture and the potential for abuse.
It is definitely ethical per medical practices, and as far as morality goes that is always relative to the person/society/culture. If you feel it is immoral then you do not have to partake in the practice.

Also, IVF has been around a long time now. Plenty of people have looked at the big picture and approve of it.

Heck, I'd submit more people in the country think it is unethical and immoral to shoot elephants than having kids by IVF. :unsure:
 
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It is definitely ethical per medical practices, and as far as morality goes that is always relative to the person/society/culture. If you feel it is immoral then you do not have to partake in the practice.

Heck, I'd submit more people in the country think it is unethical and immoral to shoot elephants than having kids by IVF. :unsure:
If you view an embryo as a human life then IVF can not be ethical as the discarding of them would violate the do no harm principle. I don’t have to participate in euthanasia either in order to condemn it.

I would imagine you’re right. They are wrong nonetheless.
 
If you view an embryo as a human life then IVF can not be ethical as the discarding of them would violate the do no harm principle. ...
Under what scientific premise would they be considered a human life? No heartbeat, no organ development, just bunch of cells in a petri dish.

Also, if you had read the post by @LivingTheDream carefully I think you'd realize that those discarded would have never come to term if implanted for reasons he outlined.
 
Just as Trump picked steady, Boring Pence to calm the traditionals.
Kamala will need a stable, boring white male to settle everyone.
Thanks for the heads up, I won’t be answering my phone for the next few days or weeks, unless I recognize the number.
 
It is definitely ethical per medical practices, and as far as morality goes that is always relative to the person/society/culture. If you feel it is immoral then you do not have to partake in the practice.

Also, IVF has been around a long time now. Plenty of people have looked at the big picture and approve of it.

Heck, I'd submit more people in the country think it is unethical and immoral to shoot elephants than having kids by IVF. :unsure:
With due respect, the scientific/medical community has considered a great many things ethical down through the years that just were abhorrent - forced sterilization, lobectomies, etc. Jonas Salk's first couple stabs at his polio vaccine ended up giving something like 50K people polio.

Medically/scientifically, almost nothing that came out of the early progressive era in the early 20th century is considered anywhere near ethical today, everything except abortion, that is. Curious that's still hanging around.

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy for a reason.
 
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Geez......some of you guys seem to have already handed Kamala the presidency.
It's hard for me to imagine that the whore - and let's not pretend she's anything other than that in the most literal sense - is going to turn out the votes, no matter what her message is. The dems who turn out to vote are for the most part just going to be votes against Trump.
 
So here is the nuance to this issue. There are viable embryos and there are non-viable embryos.

In basic terms nothing really matters till day 5. Day 1 they tell you how many eggs they got and many fertilizer, then Day 3 update on how many are growing. Day 5 is how many are an embryo. At this point they do genetic testing and freezing. Almost all IVF places prefer or almost exclusive doing Frozen so they can genetically test.

Genetically testing is essentially telling you whether the embryo is viable or not. If it doesn't have enough chromosomes it is not viable and will result in failed transfer or a miscarriage. Now if you have non-viable embryos you can either keep them frozen at a couple hundred dollars a year, or discard them, or donate them to science. Most embryos are 50/50 viable to non-viable. I hope we agree on the term Non-viable. The testing does provide some information regarding genetic diseases as well but you will know that mostly beforehand due to blood work. But essentially this is why IVF has to be able to discard embryos there is no way to guarantee you will get a viable one.

The doctors I talked to will not transfer more than 1 viable embryos at a time. The information is a bit dated with transferring 2 or more, as that was done with fresh transfers in older woman due to egg quality. Given the pain and suffering most go through to get the pregnancy stage, I cant imagine abortions being performed. I will caveat this, with I am sure it happens, people can be horrible.

I would also point out most IVFs are done because of a medical reason. Such as reoccurring miscarriages or ectopic pregrancies. To get to a egg retrieval a woman has to give herself anywhere between 30 and 60 shots in the stomach. Then the retrieval and then another 30 to 60 shots for transfer. Then you pray.

I have heard people say you should have to implant the non-viable embryos, which is the equivalent of wishing someone to have a miscarriage.

I have also had people say that it is up to God if you get pregnant and should have a baby. Which to means I guess we shouldn't see doctors for medical answers.

The only personal thing I will add is that we still have our non-viable embryos, I am not ready to let them go.

I dont want to this to be a case of what-aboutism. John/Kate plus8 didn't follow medical procedures and had sex after she got her final shot. I'm guessing octomom did something similar. But to point out a few bad actors (think poaching, gun murders, etc) amongst an otherwise ethical practice is a flawed argument.

And to answer the question no one asked, but life ends when the heart stops. Life starts at the heartbeat.

Anyways not sure if they helps or not, but at least it is another data point.

So what happens to the unused viable embryos? There have to be some right? You said they fertilize multiple eggs at one time and on day 5 report how many are embryos. A woman only wants 2 kids but produces 5 viable embryos. Do they just test one at a time and if viable implant it or do they test all at once?

Am I missing something here?
 
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I really thought the anti-IVF sentiment was constrained to Bible thumping Luddites in AL after the push back to the court decision there. Surprised to see that viewpoint here as well.

Also interesting to see anti-abortion timeline move out of a woman’s womb to a Petri dish. What’s next, proposing laws to criminalize ”sin of Onan” for preventing future life? :ROFLMAO:
 
Under what scientific premise would they be considered a human life? No heartbeat, no organ development, just bunch of cells in a petri dish.

Also, if you had read the post by @LivingTheDream carefully I think you'd realize that those discarded would have never come to term if implanted for reasons he outlined.
Dead cells don’t replicate. Ergo life. Also the heart doesn’t start beating until around week 5-6 so the heartbeat argument is flawed.

I did read it carefully and I did catch that. I also realize I may have come off as harsh towards @LivingTheDream and I’d like to apologize for that.

That is part of the problem. “Playing God” has been referenced in this thread and I think it’s appropriate in this case. It’s one thing to try and preserve life (even some of those procedures I would consider unethical or immoral). It’s quite another to fool around with bringing life into this world. Best to let things play out as naturally as possible when trying to procreate. Otherwise it’s a slippery slope as someone mentioned above.

Life starts at conception. Period.
 
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I really thought the anti-IVF sentiment was constrained to Bible thumping Luddites in AL after the push back to the court decision there. Surprised to see that viewpoint here as well.

Also interesting to see anti-abortion timeline move out of a woman’s womb to a Petri dish. What’s next, proposing laws to criminalize ”sin of Onan” for preventing future life? :ROFLMAO:
This is why you should stay in California with all the other like minded enlightened people :ROFLMAO: . You may be conservative in some ways but you fit right in there the rest of the time.

It’s worth debating the minutiae to defend the helpless and the innocent.
 
I’d submit a great majority of people support IVF, blood transfusions, organ transplants etc., etc.. A very few Christian sects (cults?) don’t to my knowledge.

There have been cases of people being prosecuted for child neglect when they ended up killing their child by praying over them instead of getting medical help. I guess they felt it would be playing God if they got medical help.
 
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I’d submit a great majority of people support IVF, blood transfusions, organ transplants etc., etc.. A very few Christian sects (cults?) don’t to my knowledge.
I realize that. I know I’m in the minority. Christians are in the minority. I’d also submit that most people don’t really spend any deep thought on the subject. They only see the good it can do and ignore or gloss over the bad.

I don’t have any problem at all with blood transfusions (not a Jehovah’s Witness and don’t believe what they believe about them) or organ transplants. Only discussing IVF at present.

Saw you edited further. They were prosecuted appropriately. Modern medicine is a wonderful thing. I take issue with very little of it.
 
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Neither was Obama, who spent a lot of money having his records sealed.

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Neither was Obama, who spent a lot of money having his records sealed.

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Why would this stop the Dems from picking her to run? Rules don't apply to them.

But it's also not true. She was born in the US, and all children born in the US qualify as US citizens, if I remember correctly.
 

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Everyone always thinks about the worst thing that can happen, maybe ask yourself what's the best outcome that could happen?
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