One of the worst "examples of hunting" I have seen

[Tundra Tiger]

I'll stick up for RSA on this. I choose to believe that an operation like this is the exception, even if it is much more endemic to RSA as @375Fox says. The outfitter I selected was very transparent about the properties he owns and has access to, as far as hunting. The fences were perhaps (IMO) a little more noticeable than I would have thought (driving in and out) just because they were EVERYWHERE along major roads (not just those of my particular outfitter) and tall. But I found his description of his properties and sizes to be accurate and the hunting was absolutely, in my mind, fair chase. We did not hunt from a vehicle (attempt to shoot from or follow animals), though we used one to access properties. We hiked (sometimes many miles) along rough trails and through the brush trailing animals or accessing places where we could glass. I suspect a great many (most) outfitters from RSA that are a part of this site run similar, above board operations, and - as I said - I choose to believe this operator is an exception. My two cents on a blustery Alaskan morning.

 

[Tanks]

I would be outraged if I was a South African operator who led a great hunting outfit. We all know there are many. Videos like these are all too common and sadly have turned me away from South Africa as a whole. I am now almost exclusively taking to Namibian operators for my first time over in 2023. Much more honest about land size and truthful l about fencing. I hate beating around the bush on that topic.

I remember overnighting at the Afton house on my way to Zim some years ago. There were several Americans so excited about their CBL hunt in Limpopo. I did not say anything as I felt it was too late at that point. So, refrained from raining on their parade.

 

[dchum]

I'll stick up for RSA on this. I choose to believe that an operation like this is the exception, even if it is much more endemic to RSA as @375Fox says. The outfitter I selected was very transparent about the properties he owns and has access to, as far as hunting. The fences were perhaps (IMO) a little more noticeable than I would have thought (driving in and out) just because they were EVERYWHERE along major roads (not just those of my particular outfitter) and tall. But I found his description of his properties and sizes to be accurate and the hunting was absolutely, in my mind, fair chase. We did not hunt from a vehicle (attempt to shoot from or follow animals), though we used one to access properties. We hiked (sometimes many miles) along rough trails and through the brush trailing animals or accessing places where we could glass. I suspect a great many (most) outfitters from RSA that are a part of this site run similar, above board operations, and - as I said - I choose to believe this operator is an exception. My two cents on a blustery Alaskan morning.

Ive seen many great SA hunts online, and the SA sponsor here seem to be awesome.
Just sad how it can be One bad apple... ect ect

 

[375er]

Ive seen many great SA hunts online, and the SA sponsor here seem to be awesome.
Just sad how it can be One bad apple... ect ect

Then the legitimate operators should do something about it because it reflects on them too. I am for sure not interested in SA after seeing this.

 

[Hunt anything]

The properties that I have hunted on in RSA (3) were high fenced but none smaller than 15000 acres, a couple more were just cow fenced, 4 strand barbed wire. We did no shooting from the truck except for a baboon which was more of a predation thing than a hunt. One of the outfitters did say he had no problem shooting from the truck but I told them no and they actually seemed relieved. I feel some of this problem can be put on the client as most outfitters want the client to be satisfied. But then again I may be wrong.

 

[Tanks]

Ive seen many great SA hunts online, and the SA sponsor here seem to be awesome.
Just sad how it can be One bad apple... ect ect

Unfortunately, it is not one bad apple but a whole barrel with a few that are not rotten intermingled amongst them.

You will not get a proper DG hunt in RSA. You might get a decent PG hunt if the property is large enough so the animals are not on top of each other and are self sustaining (no feed lots etc.)

I realize they are a business and they cater to certain clientele that are looking for inexpensive hunts. I would not hesitate to recommend RSA to people looking for an inexpensive introduction to African PG hunting with the caveat to go with the larger self-sustaining properties. Once one catches the bug then it is time to move on from RSA.

 

[Paul G]

I find it more of a problem that these hunts exist and hunters support these outfitters than the hunt being posted to YouTube.

Have you ever been to a slaughterhouse for chickens of cows? Killing is killing, just not near as rewarding as it could have been for the hunter. It's all food and animals we all eat every day are killed in a lot worse ways. Just not a very good hunt for sure.

 

[375Fox]

I'll stick up for RSA on this. I choose to believe that an operation like this is the exception, even if it is much more endemic to RSA as @375Fox says. The outfitter I selected was very transparent about the properties he owns and has access to, as far as hunting. The fences were perhaps (IMO) a little more noticeable than I would have thought (driving in and out) just because they were EVERYWHERE along major roads (not just those of my particular outfitter) and tall. But I found his description of his properties and sizes to be accurate and the hunting was absolutely, in my mind, fair chase. We did not hunt from a vehicle (attempt to shoot from or follow animals), though we used one to access properties. We hiked (sometimes many miles) along rough trails and through the brush trailing animals or accessing places where we could glass. I suspect a great many (most) outfitters from RSA that are a part of this site run similar, above board operations, and - as I said - I choose to believe this operator is an exception. My two cents on a blustery Alaskan morning.

I’m probably overly critical but the visibility of intense game farming and fencing in Limpopo is shocking to me. The amount of outfitters (including on this site) that advertise croc hunts stocked into small dams, CBL lion shoots, farm sable hunts, and other hunts that are a farming byproduct reinforce my beliefs how generally accepted these things are. I know there is a lot of good hunting in South Africa but I really think it needs searched out and defined with outfitter, particularly in Limpopo, because this is so normal now.

 

[375Fox]

Unfortunately, it is not one bad apple but a whole barrel with a few that are not rotten intermingled amongst them.

You will not get a proper DG hunt in RSA. You might get a decent PG hunt if the property is large enough so the animals are not on top of each other and are self sustaining (no feed lots etc.)

I realize they are a business and they cater to certain clientele that are looking for inexpensive hunts. I would not hesitate to recommend RSA to people looking for an inexpensive introduction to African PG hunting with the caveat to go with the larger self-sustaining properties. Once one catches the bug then it is time to move on from RSA.

I usually agree with the point you are trying to make but I have to disagree on moving on from South Africa to hunt plains game. A person needs to really educate themselves what they want and ask the right questions, but South Africa has lots of different regions and landscapes with unique hunting. My hunt in eastern cape in 2020 was really equal to any of my best and I will return for a Vaal rhebok in future.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

We were terrified when we booked our first trip to hunt in South Africa. We had hunted Namibia prior. I over think everything, so we did our research and went for it. We enjoyed an excellent hunt on a large ranch (10K+ acres), all spot and stalk. We are going back to South Africa this May for 6 weeks of hunting and visiting friends.

Legal and unethical is often a thin line that can be easily crossed. We all have our own hunting ethics. I think the line between legal and unethical is clearly crossed when videos such as the ones in this thread are publicized, thus causing issues and harm for others.

Safe hunting

 

[Safari Dave]

The video had been taken down by the time I tried to look at it, but, based on the comments, I have a good idea of what it entailed.

I absolutely abhor "canned hunts".


But with that being said, I think the majority of hunters need to hold our noses and at least be tolerate of other people doing them.

I don't like high fences, but there are many places in SA and in Texas (in the US) where these hunts can be done under almost completely "fair chase" conditions. There are private ranches in the US where the animals can run 500 miles away from a hunter, if they choose, but they simply won't because of the habitat provided by the private ranches.

In the US, we have "continental pheasant hunts", "tower hunts" and hunts for big game animals, where (IMO) the animals are far from being wild, free range animals.


It's certainly not my thing, but there are many folks who need that type of "instant gratification" to continue with the sport.

Hopefully, the rest of us can instill a sense of better sportsmanship to these folks, in time.

I do think there need to be a distinction between "record book" animals taken under any type of condition where the animal is restricted to any extent by it's ability to COMPLETELY get away.


Just my 2 cents...

 

[Tanks]

...
But with that being said, I think the majority of hunters need to hold our noses and at least be tolerate of other people doing them.

...
It's certainly not my thing, but there are many folks who need that type of "instant gratification" to continue with the sport.

...

You missed the video that was posted on page 3 and post #51. What they are doing is NOT sport, but you called it on "instant gratification". Personally, I'd rather people that need this kind of "instant gratification" stayed home and outfitters that offered it went out of business.

And trust me, I do hold my nose whenever an outfitter advertises here for "a true stalk" 4 day CBL lion hunt or a zillion inch cape buffalo hunt and stay away from their advertising thread.

In RSA one is on a frigging game ranch, the "PHs" know where all the game are for the most part and there is no reason to chase and kill game with a truck. It is done to maximize number of trophies taken in the shortest amount of time for $$$$. Not to mention, utilizing the smallest amount of acreage.

Heck, on the video I mentioned the truck drives by grazing cape buffalo, they don't even lift their heads up and look. This "hunting" is no different that driving through a petting zoo and shooting the animals one sees.

 

[Safari Dave]

OK

I didn't see the video.



If this is disgusting, I'll take your word for it.

 

[buck wild]

OK

I didn't see the video.



If this is disgusting, I'll take your word for it.

Yeah it was much worse than a typical, high fence, well stocked farm hunt Dave. They were literately 1) chasing buff with a truck, 2) in a pen, 3) while the guy was pop shooting at them 4) while running, 5) with his bow from the 6) back of the truck. There were lots of other pretty crass things happening also but that was the cherry to me. AGAIN, if that's your thing, I guess go for it, BUT the Outfitter posts the video with no apparent thought that this might not be the best look. Heck, I think the Outfitter rather enjoyed it himself. And although not to this same magnitude, other videos by the outfit are still out there with almost as equal abhorrent practices.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I guess in my mind it's maybe some of the size but much more of the, um, "tactics" they used? At some point, there can be fenced areas that are too small. Some folks on here - by reports that I have read - have had very good, very positive hunts on properties that were smaller than I would want... but they did hunt the animals, and the populations were self-sustaining. Only WE can decide what's large enough to me with that threshold for us.

And not all free range stuff plays out like free range. I'm thinking specifically about places I hunt in Alaska. Without fences, can the animals go wherever they want? Yes. Do they? In some cases, very much no. I have one honey hole for moose from which I've taken a bunch of bulls. I seriously doubt most of the moose in there ever travel more than a few miles from there, and I've killed 5 bulls within maybe 10 yards of the same spot (my position when I took the shot). Glassing and calling are what I do and in that spot it works. Also, I'm planning to get flown into an alpine lake on Kodiak Island for goats this fall. I have buddies who have done the same and have photos of their hunt areas. There is potentially a lot of climbing, yes, but the actual hunt area is a very small place indeed. Conversely, in Africa I hunted several 20,000 acre and larger properties. I did FAR more hiking there, and covered a great deal more ground than I do hunting moose in the fall here. The animals acted like wild animals should act. It definitely felt fair chase to me.

Your mileage may vary. I usually try to reserve judgement, but the folks in that video were not hunters, and that video was a very bad look. I am glad it is gone. Also, maybe that lodge owner has larger properties at his disposal, but those areas depicted on video looked more like holding pens. Your average cow pasture from my childhood KS looks far larger, and I don't think it's the lack of trees. I would note that operation in question, they show as a member on here but have never posted anything at all? To me that screams that he can't defend it - or doesn't want to - because there is nothing to defend, that it IS exactly as it looks.

Another two cents on an even more blustery morning in Alaska.

 

[Hunt anything]

I agree with TundraTiger, when I was in Mozambique we bumped a sable bull 3 times within yards and within minutes of the same time and place 3 days in a row before we were able to get a good shot at him. Even here at home whitetail bucks seem to be home bodies until the rut kicks in, but I do want them to have the option of leaving the country if they feel like it. some animals may never see a perimeter fence if the property is large enough which I would prefer.

 

[Doug3006]

There are bad ”hunters” for the same reason there are bad golfers, politicians, square dancers, plumbers and on and on. The reason? ‘Cause there is a never-ending supply of bad people. I use quotation marks because these guys aren’t hunters. Unfortunately, most people not being hunters will think they are. And that’s a problem for us. The only thing we can do is to behave ourselves like the gentlemen and ladies we are, hunt ethically and make sure everyone knows we are hunters. Then when our non-hunting acquaintances, friends and family see this crap or hear other people talking about it like it’s normal, they can say “hey, I know a hunter and he or she is not like that. “

 

[spike.t]

They still have other videos up, but they have decided to turn the comments off.

Check out this eland “hunt”. What’s bad is I don’t think the clients realize they have been cheated.

Fk......

 

[revturbo9967]

 

[C.W. Richter]

The video had been taken down by the time I tried to look at it, but, based on the comments, I have a good idea of what it entailed.

I absolutely abhor "canned hunts".


But with that being said, I think the majority of hunters need to hold our noses and at least be tolerate of other people doing them.

I don't like high fences, but there are many places in SA and in Texas (in the US) where these hunts can be done under almost completely "fair chase" conditions. There are private ranches in the US where the animals can run 500 miles away from a hunter, if they choose, but they simply won't because of the habitat provided by the private ranches.

In the US, we have "continental pheasant hunts", "tower hunts" and hunts for big game animals, where (IMO) the animals are far from being wild, free range animals.


It's certainly not my thing, but there are many folks who need that type of "instant gratification" to continue with the sport.

Hopefully, the rest of us can instill a sense of better sportsmanship to these folks, in time.

I do think there need to be a distinction between "record book" animals taken under any type of condition where the animal is restricted to any extent by it's ability to COMPLETELY get away.


Just my 2 cents...

And, with hunters that choose those approaches, they still spend considerable monies on our passion, internationally, so they score points on that front for supporting conservation, the local economies, (and most don't post videos of such idiocy, even if practiced by them.)