One of the worst "examples of hunting" I have seen

Sadly in today’s world the only option for a rhino is what ya’ll are calling “tame “rhino except for a tag in possibly Namibia. So any one that wants a rhino has to catch and release a fenced animal or shoot a fenced rhino. As of now there are other options for buff and lion and I would choose not to shoot a CBL but would hunt a buffalo in a BIG enclosure.
 
Sadly in today’s world the only option for a rhino is what ya’ll are calling “tame “rhino except for a tag in possibly Namibia. So any one that wants a rhino has to catch and release a fenced animal or shoot a fenced rhino. As of now there are other options for buff and lion and I would choose not to shoot a CBL but would hunt a buffalo in a BIG enclosure.
True. That is why I will never have the Big Five and stopping at 4.
 
I had watched parts of this video before, including the buffalo "shoot", but I guess I missed this eland fiasco. I find it DISGUSTING! And WTF rifle cartridge was this idiot using having to shoot it multiple times over many minutes of playing "rat patrol" chasing it down with a truck?
 
If we find hunting done in a way we disagree with, then we should reach out to those practitioners and explain our concerns directly to them. This should not be done online or in public. Beating our chests in an on-line forum is either a way to make ourselves appear more ethical or "better" hunters but it only serves to fragment our numbers and make us easier "targets" of the anti-hunters.

Our numbers as hunters could be easily fragmented into small pockets of "resistance" by the anti-hunters if we started segregating our selves but those that rifle hunt with scopes, rifle hunt with open sights, bow hunters, crossbow hunters, folks that hunt from a blind (or hide), those that hunt over a waterhole, those that hunt over bait, or those that hunt over agricultural fields, high fences, low fences, etc...

In a nutshell - we need to police ourselves without fragmenting ourselves or showing the anti-hunters a seam that says, "cut here".
 
If we find hunting done in a way we disagree with, then we should reach out to those practitioners and explain our concerns directly to them. This should not be done online or in public. Beating our chests in an on-line forum is either a way to make ourselves appear more ethical or "better" hunters but it only serves to fragment our numbers and make us easier "targets" of the anti-hunters.

Our numbers as hunters could be easily fragmented into small pockets of "resistance" by the anti-hunters if we started segregating our selves but those that rifle hunt with scopes, rifle hunt with open sights, bow hunters, crossbow hunters, folks that hunt from a blind (or hide), those that hunt over a waterhole, those that hunt over bait, or those that hunt over agricultural fields, high fences, low fences, etc...

In a nutshell - we need to police ourselves without fragmenting ourselves or showing the anti-hunters a seam that says, "cut here".
The thread got of topic maybe...
But the practices in the original video that was posted and the videos that followed do nothing good for hunting/hunters or the animals at this point in time. I would say they harm hunting and the lonegvty of hunting IMHO

Thats what this really is all about
 
But the practices in the original video that was posted and the videos that followed do nothing good for hunting/hunters or the animals at this point in time. I would say they harm hunting and the lonegvty of hunting

I agree 100% - my advocacy was to tell the poster of the video directly instead of giving the anti's 7 pages of fodder for their next Facebook campaign.
 
I agree 100% - my advocacy was to tell the poster of the video directly instead of giving the anti's 7 pages of fodder for their next Facebook campaign.
I'm pretty certain that this thread got back to whomever was responsible. Evidenced by its removal.

I'm also certain, if the Anti's wanted to use something for ammunition against hunting they could use that video as a poster session. It is simple to copy and save to your own hard drive. It is not alone on the web.

What is it that this thread started discussing?:E Confused:
 
As an aside. Many years ago I was loosely affiliated with a high fence operation in Suwanee FL. We would trap or catch hogs , sell them to the owner then on occasion bring our dogs out for clients to experience a bay n catch hog hunt. That evolved into the owner going to stock sales and buying goats and scrub cows for people to kill. Always a market for some unscrupulous blood thirsty humans to kill animals to brag about with no skill, exertion, or conscience involved, unfortunately.
 
You’ll notice these cases are always South Africa and not Namibia even though they are similar hunting situations. It’s because PHASA doesn’t police their members while Namibia actively does. They need to regulate their own industry, but if CBL lions are any example, it will not happen.
One of the worst videos of this ilk I ever saw came out of Tanzania!
 
Then the legitimate operators should do something about it because it reflects on them too. I am for sure not interested in SA after seeing this.
What is it you think should they do?
 
Unfortunately, it is not one bad apple but a whole barrel with a few that are not rotten intermingled amongst them.
Sadly, as a highly developed safari industry in RSA they have a greater statistical opportunity to encounter these scenarios. That does not equate with the MAJORITY (the whole barrel) being rotten.

You will not get a proper DG hunt in RSA. ............
It is quite feasible with some research.
 
What is it you think should they do?
By RSA law there is no such thing as a wild animal in RSA (with exception of National parks), all animals are raised and owned by individual game farms.

So, there is no way to enforce any rules in regards to methods of hunting etc.. However, raising lions for hunting purposes can be outlawed outright by the government. and in my view should be. The current regulations (released 72 hours prior to hunt) does not really have any teeth. Lions are still raised in very small enclosures and released into a bit larger area for hunting purposes.

According to a study of a Tanzanian lion range and movement patterns home ranges of prides were ranging from 52 Km2 to 616 Km2 with an average of 209 Km2. Movements were smallest in the dry season and largest in the wet season (following Zebra and Wildebeest migrations) . Obviously, it is not possible to have this in RSA and probably cost too much to farmers in their animal stock if even attempted.

In regards to PG and herbivore DG smaller outfits (< 20K acres) will still do put and take and have basically tamer animals due to contact with people. So, it is up to the hunter to do their due diligence based on the type of hunt they want.

Also, other than cull class PG animals, RSA trophy fees are not that much less than places like Namibia, Zambia, Botswana, Uganda etc.. So, that is an option for those hunters that are particular about the hunt itself rather than just shooting something (again there are RSA outfits that can be recommended based on some of the reviews here).

On the other hand, for a family of four vacationing while getting in a hunt, I think RSA does offer good value, and it is up to the hunter to pick what type of hunt they want to do.
 
By RSA law there is no such thing as a wild animal in RSA (with exception of National parks), all animals are raised and owned by individual game farms.
The laws of the various RSA provinces do allow for CAE's and thus privatization of some species. The ordinances DO address wildlife and those species which CAN NOT be private property. Therefore, there are wild animals as specified by the law. The ordinances also specify set hunting seasons and bag limits for game, very similarly to what we have in North America.
The ordinances certainly specify hunting methods which are legal and illegal and for various species, including limitations on caliber and bow hunting, etc. (This was all beaten into my head for ten days in PH School.)

So, there is no way to enforce any rules in regards to methods of hunting etc..
There are certainly ways to enforce the law, within CAE's and outside them. Someone has to report a concern to start an investigation.


I'll skip the whole CBL debate. It's been flogged to death.

In regards to PG and herbivore DG smaller outfits (< 20K acres) will still do put and take and have basically tamer animals due to contact with people. So, it is up to the hunter to do their due diligence based on the type of hunt they want.

Contrary to the general assumption about tame/tamer animals only coming off a truck after being handled. There are other ways for the animals to act "tame" without having just been let off the last lorry.
For example: KZN Ordinances specifically state that you may NOT shoot from a vehicle. In fact, it specifies a set distance from the vehicle.
Interestingly, you note behaviour of animals in relations to vehicles. On large reserves that NEVER allow shooting from vehicles, the animals will stand and watch the vehicle go by and even allow pictures to be taken at short distances. Once the predator gets of the vehicle though, that same animal acts just like any wild Elk I have ever hunted. They disappear. You had better be a good hunter to succeed. (I enjoyed hunting this kind of property)

I have noted the exact same tame behaviour in various countries I have hunted on variety of species.
If the Buffalo in Zim are being bothered by Lions they may be agitated and more alert. Otherwise, some communal areas with local people constantly in contact, they can be pretty "tame" wild animals through habituation to humans.

I have seen hunts offered on the net that were basically BOMA hunts. I can recall one that offered a 31 inch Nyala bull for a bow hunt on a property that was not much larger than a residential plot. I'll bet someone bought it. I did not.

I've watched a bow hunter stalking a Buffalo in the swamp in Moz. It looked like he was shooting a dairy cow. I'm not sure that Buffalo had ever seen a human. On being hit, the Buffalo flinched and slowly moved off. It was recovered shortly. The Buffalo knew something was there but was not afraid. It appeared tame, but there were certainly no fences within a hundred miles.

Hunting Elephants that are constantly harassed by humans/poachers is way different than a hunting where there is no poaching. You obviously know the difference between Tuskless and Bull hunts. Hunt Elephants in a Photo Safari area versus an isolated concession again, habituation plays a huge role. When you are standing on the ground, as I can attest, there are no small Elephants. :)

You are spot on about doing research and ensuring that you get the type of hunt you want.
Game Ranching is a huge business in Southern Africa, not just South Africa, and you can have PUT & TAKE on any size property.
If the Outfit pushes huge numbers of hunters through per year on 100,000 acres, they will still need to have trucks dropping game every week.

On to the sister video of the one the OP posted.
I watched a few seconds of the video where the Eland was running along a fence away from the vehicle that was pursuing it and was shot from behind. I then knew what would ensue and I closed the link. It was extremely disturbing. I am obviously not alone.
That is not how I'd like to conduct myself.

I have culled an Eland from the truck, but hunting them by tracking has always been the most exciting kind of Eland hunting I have done. The folks in that video missed out.

This thread can be a learning opportunity.

I hope everyone gets the kind of hunt they are looking for. Do your research.
 
As the OP to this thread- I had two concerns:
1) The content of the video didn't appear to be great publicity for the hunting community (I had no intent to say it wasn't legal, unethical etc other than it was in poor public taste thus my Worse Example of Hunting title)
2) This Outfitter's methods should be known to any potential hunters looking to book to ensure they were aware these were not the normal hunting methods, even in SA. That the outfitter appeared to do anything to get animals= money.
I'll add another tag to this outfitter and their methods. As quite apparent they are willing to use drones to locate, it appears mainly buffalo, in an effort to stack the odds in their favor. Again, nothing more than a heads up if someone is looking to book with them AND if you are or run into another similar outfit, it's your RIGHT as the paying customer to decline any of their hunting techniques! I also think it is just a matter of time before someone gets hurt or worse. They will walk up to animals to include buff that still obviously have some kick left in them while they stand around unloading rifles and patting themselves, literally, on the back even turning away from the still moving quarry.
 
buck wild: You are spot on. Unfortunately, this type of "hunting" adventure is very common throughout the US as well. When we lived in South Florida, I went to a place that advertised with all the top hunting magazines, SCI, and was on TV many times. More than one well known writer praised it. 3500+ acres of real, free range, Florida wiId boar hunting! Spot and stalk and/or dogs.

We arrive early one morning and when the guide saw me assembling my Merkel 9.3x74 double, he asked if that is the rifle I planned to use. I said yes, why? (Many think it is a .410 sxs at first glance.) He looked frustrated and asked me to leave it in the truck and come with him. I get in his truck and we drive into a patch of woods to a high fence pen. I can see numerous pigs milling around as well as several stands inside. He said this is where we hunt. I was like WTF?!? It looked to be about 2 acres penned in. He replied that 2 acres is about right and when I saw your rifle, I didn't think you would want to do it. I asked what happened to the 3500+ acres of real, free range, Florida wiId boar hunting? Spot and stalk and/or dogs? He said that had not existed in years. I asked what about the shows I saw and articles I read? He said it was all done right there in the pen and sometimes they bring in dogs to chase the pigs around. I gave him $20 for his time and since I had not paid a deposit, no financial harm done. I tried to call the outfitter/owner a few times and he never answered.

I think these quotes by Aldo Leopold are great compasses to guide us during our hunting adventures.

"A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct."

"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching – even when doing the wrong thing is legal."

Safe hunting.
 
I wish AH required outfitters to specifically identify if their offers are to hunt fenced areas, stocked game, and game that’s been habituated by feeding.
 
I wish AH required outfitters to specifically identify if their offers are to hunt fenced areas, stocked game, and game that’s been habituated by feeding.
All this requires is a bit of research.
 
I wish AH required outfitters to specifically identify if their offers are to hunt fenced areas, stocked game, and game that’s been habituated by feeding.
Stocked game and feeding will always be grey areas because there is stocking trophies and there is introducing new genetics into fenced areas. Stocking new genetics will be required time to time. Fencing prevents animals from ranging during a drought so feeding will be occasionally required most fenced properties too. You need to do your research.
 
Stocked game and feeding will always be grey areas because there is stocking trophies and there is introducing new genetics into fenced areas. Stocking new genetics will be required time to time. Fencing prevents animals from ranging during a drought so feeding will be occasionally required most fenced properties too. You need to do your research.

Eh…I mostly disagree. Genetics are not an issue if you have sufficient acreage and aren’t overshooting the population. Fencing is just unsportsmanlike and is for domesticated herd animals like cows. Feeding shouldn’t be required outside major droughts or fires.


Wildlife should be wild. That’s the whole point.


To each their own though.
 

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