Would you hunt with a operator hunting illegaly?

[Safari Dave]

No way!

 

[sestoppelman]

Odd thread. Read it thru, but see no stories from the OP yet. I think a better question would be, would you hunt illegally knowingly.
To which I am certain would be a hard no from all here.

 

[Hunt anything]

Something like shooting an animal which should have a permit, but there is no permit, and the hunter is not aware of that ?

I know firsthand of a couple of cases, plus a few stories I cannot certify.

The 2 times I hunted TOPS animals I think that my PH’s got tired of me pestering them about the permits. They finally showed them to me.

 

[Doug3006]

No, I would not knowingly hunt with any outfitter who hunts illegally. Reason number one…I try to behave ethically in general. Secondly…I look terrible in orange. Thirdly…I’m allergic to 3rd world prisons.

 

[Sauer404XT]

Never hunted with this particular outfitter , but he did lot of illegal hunts in kyrgyzstan, of buying bogus lisences that are only good for a rabbit to not paying the local outfitters who are still holding people's ibex and marco polo's. He also got caught poaching in Canada on sheep.

There is another forum that has all the stories there from Multiple Multiple hunters who got done.

No hunters knew he was like this.

 

[baxterb]

You are known by the company you keep.

No.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

A p

What is a bakkie?

A pick up truck

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Ok here is a story took places quite few years ago pardon my tying on a cell phone is not very nice.

One day I was contacted by someone I knew and asked if I could assist a friend of his? I met with man with the problem.

Now for the story.

It seems that SAM booked a hunt. I will
not mention at what event the purchase took place. SAM arrived in a southern african country. Hunted with a PH from that country. I will mention the outfitter was very well known and very controversial. SAM legally shot just about everything he saw.
Now SAM had that “is that all there is?” moment. Ah, now things start to change. The kind and clever operator asks “have you ever been to “Zimbabwe”?

Now the foreign PH, SAM and a smuggled PH rifle are in Zim. They are on the way to the Gwaii. Where the operator has illegal hunts going on. SAM did some hunting in the Gwaii and killed several animals. How do the they get away with doing this a tame Zim. PH.
Now the PH, SAM and the smuggled rifle are touring Zim. kind of a pair of serial killers. Eventually SAM got bored and went home his bill from his outfitter waiting. Which he paid.
Time goes by his trophies arrive from the first country, but not Zimbabwe? The outfitter was not taking his calls and he had no idea who had his substantial amount amount of trophies.

Time passes, I am asked to look for his trophies, which I find. At that time there was a somewhat very shaky taxidermist operating and this is where I found the remains of the trophies. I talked to the owner, he had never been paid the trophy fees. This was the operator responsibility. The taxidermy in fact was about ready to ship these illegal trophies. He had already contacted USFW to expect the crate. I asked the taxidermist to hold off until SAM contacted him. Which I guess took place, I wanted no part.

Now SAM tells me in the not so distant past. He transported several deer trophies from Canada, poor SAM was caught and tried under the Lacey act. He received a fine and suspended sentence.

If SAM would have received that crate the next 5yrs or so might have been quite different.

As the years went by I got to know him and his family quite well. He did several legal hunts with us.

The operator is still going today, he has shown that no one can touch him at least in his home country. The operator is now banned from SCI. The X taxidermist still operates in his home country. SAM is very careful when he books hunts.

Now this is just one story, express your thoughts please.

 

[mark-hunter]

That kind of hunt I wouldn't do. Especially evolving smuggled rifle.

However, I have nothing against hunting with local people, presumably legal way (I keep benefit of doubt) without bothering to bring trophies home. Meat hunt, or PAC hunt. No issue for me.

As I said earlier, I cannot imagine that paying high trophy fees, and day rates, and whatnot is the only way of possible legal hunt in African various countries.

Also, premium African hunting destinations do not necessary mean, that they are the only hunting destinations in Africa.

There must be also less known, legal way, that local hunters do.
Joining them, I wouldn't mind

 

[375Fox]

There’s a lot of detail missing, but It’s pretty simple to me. If you want to hunt South Africa book and hunt with a reputable South African PH. If you want to hunt Zimbabwe book and hunt with a reputable Zimbabwe PH. No one would book a Wyoming elk hunt with a Texas whitetail outfitter so I’m not sure why this situation is so common in Southern Africa.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Not intentionally, no. However, as traveling hunters we have to rely on the PH to know and adhere to all local laws.

Before this thread gets too detailed, I think it best to remind everyone that this is an open forum on the internet. Not everyone reading these posts will have our best interests at heart. I suggest you exercise good judgement in what you post.

Hi Wab, i agree with you I do not want to do anything that will harm our way of life. I just hope that visiting hunters will use there common sense when selecting there PH.
One good indicator that something is not as it seems your PH has removed his number plates!

 

[Dewald]

Ok here is a story took places quite few years ago pardon my tying on a cell phone is not very nice.

One day I was contacted by someone I knew and asked if I could assist a friend of his? I met with man with the problem.

Now for the story.

It seems that SAM booked a hunt. I will
not mention at what event the purchase took place. SAM arrived in a southern african country. Hunted with a PH from that country. I will mention the outfitter was very well known and very controversial. SAM legally shot just about everything he saw.
Now SAM had that “is that all there is?” moment. Ah, now things start to change. The kind and clever operator asks “have you ever been to “Zimbabwe”?

Now the foreign PH, SAM and a smuggled PH rifle are in Zim. They are on the way to the Gwaii. Where the operator has illegal hunts going on. SAM did some hunting in the Gwaii and killed several animals. How do the they get away with doing this a tame Zim. PH.
Now the PH, SAM and the smuggled rifle are touring Zim. kind of a pair of serial killers. Eventually SAM got bored and went home his bill from his outfitter waiting. Which he paid.
Time goes by his trophies arrive from the first country, but not Zimbabwe? The outfitter was not taking his calls and he had no idea who had his substantial amount amount of trophies.

Time passes, I am asked to look for his trophies, which I find. At that time there was a somewhat very shaky taxidermist operating this is where I found the remains of the trophies. I talked to the owner, he had never been paid the trophy fees. This was the operator responsibility. The taxidermy in fact about ready to ship these illegal trophies. He had already contacted USFW to expect thr crate. I asked the taxidermist to hold off until SAM contacted him. Which I guess took place, I wanted no part.

Now SAM tells me in the not so distant past. He transported several deer trophies from Canada, poor SAM was caught and tried under the Lacey act. He received a fine and suspended sentence,

If SAM would have received that crate the next 5yrs or so might have been quite different.

As the years went by I got to know him and his family quite well. He did several legal hunts with us.

The operator is still going today, he has shown that no one can touch him at least in his home country. The operator is now banned from SCI. The X taxidermist still operates in his home country. SAM is very careful when he books hunts.

Now this is just one story, express your thoughts please.

Is the operator stil going in Zim Lon,or only in RSA. That woud be a big thing for me if ZPGA at least made sure he can not operate Zim anymore.

Could you also please clarify something for me. I was always under the impression that you have to be born and bred in Zimbabwe to hunt there as a PH. Obviously yourself as an American (and I think you mentioned that your wife is from RSA), run a legit PH operations there. Did you have to get citizenship first or how does it work?

Regards,

Dewald van der Walt

 

[grand veneur]

I may not have understood everything correctly, but even a foreign hunter should know that there are countries in Africa that have different laws and that if you hunt legally in one country, this permit cannot be transferred to the neighboring country, no matter what the operator or the PH says. Even if both, operator and PH, have the right to hunt in the neighboring country, a client would have to know that his permits are only valid for one country. Again, I don't understand some things of this story.

 

[375Fox]

I talked to the owner, he had never been paid the trophy fees. This was the operator responsibility. The taxidermy in fact about ready to ship these illegal trophies. He had already contacted USFW to expect the crate. I asked the taxidermist to hold off until SAM contacted him. Which I guess took place, I wanted no part.

Now SAM tells me in the not so distant past. He transported several deer trophies from Canada, poor SAM was caught and tried under the Lacey act. He received a fine and suspended sentence,

If SAM would have received that crate the next 5yrs or so might have been quite different.

This part does not make sense to me. If it was an illegal hunt and trophy fees not paid how were the export permits issued? If it was ready to be shipped it was made legal on paper and the only parties that would know it wasn’t were the outfitter and PH. Most questionable African hunts I’d never expect the hunter to see his trophies again, more in issue of ethics and wasted money than a Lacey act violation.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Matetsi in Zim? Seems like a lot of stuff going on there

Is the operator stil going in Zim Lon,or only in RSA. That woud be a big thing for me if ZPGA at least made sure he can not operate Zim anymore.

Could you also please clarify something for me. I was always under the impression that you have to be born and bred in Zimbabwe to hunt there as a PH. Obviously yourself as an American (and I think you mentioned that your wife is from RSA), run a legit PH operations there. Did you have to get citizenship first or how does it work?

Regards,

Dewald van der Waltlo

Longtime permanent resident

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Is the operator stil going in Zim Lon,or only in RSA. That woud be a big thing for me if ZPGA at least made sure he can not operate Zim anymore.

Could you also please clarify something for me. I was always under the impression that you have to be born and bred in Zimbabwe to hunt there as a PH. Obviously yourself as an American (and I think you mentioned that your wife is from RSA), run a legit PH operations there. Did you have to get citizenship first or how does it work?

Regards,

Dewald van der Walt

My wife was born in zim. Has never lived outside the Zim.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I may not have understood everything correctly, but even a foreign hunter should know that there are countries in Africa that have different laws and that if you hunt legally in one country, this permit cannot be transferred to the neighboring country, no matter what the operator or the PH says. Even if both, operator and PH, have the right to hunt in the neighboring country, a client would have to know that his permits are only valid for one country. Again, I don't understand some things of this story.

What is it you do not understand? The point of the story is the client hunted illegal hunt and paid the price. Keep in mind I had nothing to do with SAM everyone knew or knew of him.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Is the operator stil going in Zim Lon,or only in RSA. That woud be a big thing for me if ZPGA at least made sure he can not operate Zim anymore.

Could you also please clarify something for me. I was always under the impression that you have to be born and bred in Zimbabwe to hunt there as a PH. Obviously yourself as an American (and I think you mentioned that your wife is from RSA), run a legit PH operations there. Did you have to get citizenship first or how does it work?

Regards,

Dewald van der Walt

Dewald, I speak under correction, but think one of Zim's most famous PH's, John Sharp is a South African. Born in Cape Town if I have it correct.

 

[grand veneur]

What is it you do not understand? The point of the story is the client hunted illegal hunt and paid the price. Keep in mind I had nothing to do with SAM everyone knew or knew of him.

If it was not intentional, I cannot understand how one can be so unsuspecting and believe that, if one have various permits from one country, you can hunt in the neighboring country without any problems. Such people don't know what countries and borders are. The times of colonial empires in Africa are long gone. There are now sovereign countries in Africa that also try to maintain a legal order.

The question was Would you hunt with an operator hunting illegally ?

Sure, the majority answers No, but in this story one did it and, due to the circumstances, I cannot see him as a victim of a fraud.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I guess you miss the point. It not about the client, but who was doing a illegal hunt in a country he was not licensed for. Sorry you can not see that.