What’s the thoughts on the .223 on all plains game with a match bullet trend?

[375Ruger416]

No, just no.

Match the cartridge to the game.

I’m sure a 223 77 gr in the vitals would kill large plains game, but what about less than ideal angles? Bullet blowup if it strikes a rib or the shoulder and doesn’t penetrate to the vitals? Need for a followup shot at a quartering animal?

On the other hand, I do think reasonable hunting calibers in the medium bore range are more similar than we appreciate. Since they all kill by tissue destruction and blood loss, it takes a large change to result in a significant change in on game performance. Is a 130 gr 6.5 monometal really that much worse than a 165 gr 30 cal? I’m skeptical. However, a 143 gr lead core vs a 220 gr? That’s enough of a difference to matter. And 6.5 130 gr monometal vs a 300 gr 375? That is suitable for different classes of game imo.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I’m truly baffled with these guys post on rockslide that , a .223 , 22cm , 22-250 ,ect
Shooting a 77gr match bullet , is more than adequate for hunting kudos, eland , gembuck , waterbuck, ect ( large PG ) , shooting a unbonded 22cal explosive bullet through the ribs , seems like a disaster to me , yet there are multiple people saying explosive small caliber is more effective then say a 7x57 with a bonded bullet.
What’s your opinion? I’m sure you can see I disagree

One response
“”
Put a 2-3 or 4" hole in the lungs of the toughest oryx, blue wildebeest, zebra or whatever with one of the little guys, and all the theories about the African animals being magically tougher that the rest of the world´s will fall to pieces.
Someone mentioned he had killed 10 oryx, and being that a great experience, let me say I have shot 20, this year, just to put things in perspective.
And no, you should not take a PH judgement on these things as the word of God, at least not any PH´s, since many of them are simply not interested and pay no attention to these things at least at the level some of us do.
Just my 2 cents.””

Yeah. Right.
And then he killed a cape buffalo bull with a .22 Hornet.

 

[Inline6]

No, just no.

Match the cartridge to the game.

I’m sure a 223 77 gr in the vitals would kill large plains game, but what about less than ideal angles? Bullet blowup if it strikes a rib or the shoulder and doesn’t penetrate to the vitals? Need for a followup shot at a quartering animal?

On the other hand, I do think reasonable hunting calibers in the medium bore range are more similar than we appreciate. Since they all kill by tissue destruction and blood loss, it takes a large change to result in a significant change in on game performance. Is a 130 gr 6.5 monometal really that much worse than a 165 gr 30 cal? I’m skeptical. However, a 143 gr lead core vs a 220 gr? That’s enough of a difference to matter. And 6.5 130 gr monometal vs a 300 gr 375? That is suitable for different classes of game imo.

I'm not saying one should. I'm only giving perspective. We killed 3 giraffe this past trip. My wife used a 375h&h with a mono 300gr bullet. My middle son used a 375Ruger with 300 DGX. My youngest used a 6.5CM with a 129SST.

375h&h 1 shot zipped through it, bull was down in about 2-3 minutes. (120-yards)

375Ruger took 4 shots and was down in 3-4 minutes. (90- yards)

6.5CM 1 shot, Bull was on the ground in 45 seconds. (127-yards)

All 3 were shot in the shoulder, so bullet placement were all close to the same area.

 

[Jeff505]

223s have there place, when we lose that perspective and believe that the cartridge has supernatural powers then the line between fact and fiction can be blurred. Actually I find humor in this thread as I do in many areas of life. Obviously this thread is meant for entertainment as is my reply.

 

[TERMINATOR]

What are you doing on Rockslide? That forum is a shithole. Ugh!

Any PH that lets a client hunt plains game with .223 should lose his license. I remember when they handed me an M16 at the range during basic training 1972. "Are you kidding me? Our guys in Vietnam are trying to kill people with these pea shooters?" Drill sergeant explained Pentagon logic: six Vietcong needed to take care of every wounded. That's seven Cong removed from combat. Someone should have told them wounded enemy is still capable of returning fire and killing our soldiers. Dead ones not so much.

Our guys in Vietnam had a love/hate relationship with the M16. The early models fouled and jammed horribly and were hated. They got some of that sorted out and learned to clean them more often then the real ADVANTAGE of the M16 became clear. Many of our guys would go on patrol with a magazine in the rifle and as many as 36 fully loaded magazines on their person in their combat vest. That is 1080 rounds on top of the 30 in the gun. When you are on patrol and get in a firefight, there is no such thing as having too much ammo.

They could carry that much ammo because the cartridges were physically smaller and relatively light compared to say a .308 cartridge (7.62x51) for the previous battle rifle the M14 or compared to the 7.62 x 39 that the NVA/Viet Cong carried for their AK47s and SKS rifles

No way you can carry around 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 or 7.62x51 for an extended patrol.

Also, the FMJ rounds from the 5.56x45 were so light and traveling so fast that when it hit a person in the body it would start tumbling and make a nasty wound channel through the body. It was actually way more deadly than a person would think.

All that said....you would have to be a moron to shoot plains game bigger than a duiker with a 22 centerfire of any kind using even the best bullets.

I would not even use my beloved .257 Wby on things the size of an Gemsbok/Wildebeest/Kudu even though with a great 120 grain bullet it would get the job done in most circumstances if you are selective with your shot angles.

A 6.5 with a great 140 grain bullet is about as small as I would go for anything bigger than a Impala and honestly I would rather have a .270 with a great 150 gr bullet or a 7mm Something with a 160 gr bullet.

In the end, I think a 30 caliber, preferably one of the mags (H&H, WSM, Win Mag or Wby Mag) is the ideal plains game gun. And I have settled on the .300 Wby because it can kill anything that doesn't want to kill me and I can shoot it well

 

[Neophyte]

Having used the .223/5.56 for work I’ve come to agree with the late Col. Cooper that it’s good for shooting poodles.

Game animals are not humans and the bone and muscle structure is vastly different. While the .223/5.56 might work well on bipedal targets I favor heavier/bigger cartridges for anything bigger than a coyote and I’m not all that impressed with the cartridge on bipedal targets either.

I used a 22-250, borrowed, in Australia on kangaroo. Would much rather have used a .308 Winchester. I only own three suitable hunting cartridges in my collection although I have the 5.56 I prefer to use my 45-70 on coyotes. I haven’t tried the 6.5 Creedmoor yet on game and I may not. I have a .338 Win Mag that works on anything I care to hunt in North America. I’m thinking of pairing the .375 Ruger with the 6.5 Creedmoor for a worldwide two gun battery.

The smaller one goes in cartridge the more critical shot placement and bullet selection becomes in my opinion.

 

[1911Fan]

Unless commies are considered plains game, I don't think I'd take a .223 on safari!

 

[hoytcanon]

I think the practice is unacceptably stupid. The problem is not if it "could" work... of course it can... the problem is in the LARGE MARGIN for it not to work. As hunters we should choose equipment that increases the margin for success, which means a clean and efficient harvest. I consider small bore and ultra long range shooting to be simply EGO STUNTING. I think very little of those utilizing such practices.

 

[TERMINATOR]

I think the practice is unacceptably stupid. The problem is not if it "could" work... of course it can... the problem is in the LARGE MARGIN for it not to work. As hunters we should choose equipment that increases the margin for success, which means a clean and efficient harvest. I consider small bore and ultra long range shooting to be simply EGO STUNTING. I think very little of those utilizing such practices.

100%

I can’t believe any PH would allow it beyond the Tiny 10. And consider marginal on the biggest of the Tiny 10

 

[Josh P]

100%

I can’t believe any PH would allow it beyond the Tiny 10. And consider marginal on the biggest of the Tiny 10

You’re right. It would waste too much meat.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Our guys in Vietnam had a love/hate relationship with the M16. The early models fouled and jammed horribly and were hated. They got some of that sorted out and learned to clean them more often then the real ADVANTAGE of the M16 became clear. Many of our guys would go on patrol with a magazine in the rifle and as many as 36 fully loaded magazines on their person in their combat vest. That is 1080 rounds on top of the 30 in the gun. When you are on patrol and get in a firefight, there is no such thing as having too much ammo.

They could carry that much ammo because the cartridges were physically smaller and relatively light compared to say a .308 cartridge (7.62x51) for the previous battle rifle the M14 or compared to the 7.62 x 39 that the NVA/Viet Cong carried for their AK47s and SKS rifles

No way you can carry around 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 or 7.62x51 for an extended patrol.

Also, the FMJ rounds from the 5.56x45 were so light and traveling so fast that when it hit a person in the body it would start tumbling and make a nasty wound channel through the body. It was actually way more deadly than a person would think.

All that said....you would have to be a moron to shoot plains game bigger than a duiker with a 22 centerfire of any kind using even the best bullets.

I would not even use my beloved .257 Wby on things the size of an Gemsbok/Wildebeest/Kudu even though with a great 120 grain bullet it would get the job done in most circumstances if you are selective with your shot angles.

A 6.5 with a great 140 grain bullet is about as small as I would go for anything bigger than a Impala and honestly I would rather have a .270 with a great 150 gr bullet or a 7mm Something with a 160 gr bullet.

In the end, I think a 30 caliber, preferably one of the mags (H&H, WSM, Win Mag or Wby Mag) is the ideal plains game gun. And I have settled on the .300 Wby because it can kill anything that doesn't want to kill me and I can shoot it well

I was never on patrol in Vietnam but I question whether having more ammo outweighed having better ammo. The Vietcong were definitely better equipped to shoot through jungle with 7.62x39. I remember my dad pointing to a WWII Browning BAR at a gun show and explaining that it required a two or three man crew to operate. Guys were needed to carry ammo and extra barrel(s). I thought that probably didn't work well. He laughed. "There was never any shortage of volunteers for BAR crew. The Japs were fearless but that gun got their respect." Belching out 30-06 full auto had an impact. I can imagine a Vietcong in a jungle firefight listening to M16s pop, pop, pop and the leaves rustling overhead. Then a marine weighs in with .308 M14. Boom, boom, boom. And trees start falling over. Yeah, I'm out here.

 

[mdwest]

I question whether having more ammo outweighed having better ammo.

Thats a question that still hasnt been definitively answered...

The military is now moving to a 6.8x51 round... still trying to find a balance between 556 and 762 NATO I believe..

There is also the issue that the US military in particular (as well as NATO) has to be prepared for any/all foreseeable conflicts in any/all foreseeable locations.. under any/all foreseeable conditions.. so what they need is a "jack of all trades" which unfortunately means it will very likely also be a "master of none"..

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Back to the original post and question.....this thread is similar to others that have appeared on AH over the years. And I put it in the same category of there is a difference in what CAN be done versus what SHOULD be done?

For example, there have been innumerable elephants killed by poachers with an AK-47 shooting of course the 7.62x39 caliber and using God only knows what for ammunition. If anyone invited me to be along on a hunt of an elephant using this combination, I'm headed in the opposite direction. But there's no doubt that it CAN be done. But it most certainly SHOULD NOT be done for the sake of the animal at the very least.

Furthermore, I just don't get it. What are these smaller bores guys trying to achieve? Are they actually afraid of the huge recoil of a 7x57 or .308 Win? Two much better calibers for medium to larger PG in comparison.

For goodness sakes I STARTED my sons when they were young on those calibers. And I now have my wife up to shooting my .375HH off of sticks. I don't know that I'll ever sit her at a bench to shoot it. But now that she has, I'm quite confident she'll find her .30-06 to be quite easy to shoot, including off of the bench.

 

[TERMINATOR]

Back to the original post and question.....this thread is similar to others that have appeared on AH over the years. And I put it in the same category of there is a difference in what CAN be done versus what SHOULD be done?

For example, there have been innumerable elephants killed by poachers with an AK-47 shooting of course the 7.62x39 caliber and using God only knows what for ammunition. If anyone invited me to be along on a hunt of an elephant using this combination, I'm headed in the opposite direction. But there's no doubt that it CAN be done. But it most certainly SHOULD NOT be done for the sake of the animal at the very least.

Furthermore, I just don't get it. What are these smaller bores guys trying to achieve? Are they actually afraid of the huge recoil of a 7x57 or .308 Win? Two much better calibers for medium to larger PG in comparison.

For goodness sakes I STARTED my sons when they were young on those calibers. And I now have my wife up to shooting my .375HH off of sticks. I don't know that I'll ever sit her at a bench to shoot it. But now that she has, I'm quite confident she'll find her .30-06 to be quite easy to shoot, including off of the bench.

One thing I figured out about the keyboard hunters and YouTube idiots that advocate hunting big animals with small guns or “long range shooting”

They LOVE to talk about the one they got but NEVER talk about the 3 they hit that got away

 

[Inline6]

One thing I figured out about the keyboard hunters and YouTube idiots that advocate hunting big animals with small guns or “long range shooting”

They LOVE to talk about the one they got but NEVER talk about the 3 they hit that got away

A good many animals get away when shot with larger rifles too. Several ranches we have hunted at (in Texas) ask you not being 300WM and larger. People flinch and wound animals.

No matter what you use, you as a hunter must be proficient with said tool. Most everyone that has posted here has wounded an animal at some point. It is hunting, it happens. It sucks when it happens! From personal experience, I would rather see someone under gunned and shoot 1/2moa than someone over gunned and can hit a pie plate.

YMMV

 

[rookhawk]

While planning my eland hunt, several PH's sent me pics of bulls that allegedly (and apparently) weighed in at about 1 ton. We also talked about failure to cleanly kill them with several cartridges including a 308, a 6.5CM and others. While I am a fan of light rifles in general, this accumulated data prompted me to take a 300 Win Mag on my eland hunt, and to use a 200 grain Barnes at 2870fps. This load proved just right. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I remember two mule deer bucks that I shot with a 223 and 55 grain Win soft point. Both with poor results, and only one recovered. There was no excuse for such behavior on my part, and it will never happen again. Varmint bullets are for varmints. Plains game deserves better.....FWB

My son shot an eland with a 7x64 brenneke (basically Euro version of a 280rem) at close range with a 140gr barnes TTSX. No blood. A very long recovery from the confusion of the trackers following the herd rather than the shot animal that peeled off. After 2-3 hours, we found the Eland 200 yards or so from the shot in the tall grass. The bullet/shot was perfect, the bullet had made it to the heart and no further.

This is with a 7x64 and a great bullet! People think a .223 is going to have enough gas to get through an animal? I think not. Heck, I've failed to have pass-throughs on Kudu/Sable/Zebra with a 375HH.

 

[TERMINATOR]

A good many animals get away when shot with larger rifles too. Several ranches we have hunted at (in Texas) ask you not being 300WM and larger. People flinch and wound animals.

No matter what you use, you as a hunter must be proficient with said tool. Most everyone that has posted here has wounded an animal at some point. It is hunting, it happens. It sucks when it happens! From personal experience, I would rather see someone under gunned and shoot 1/2moa than someone over gunned and can hit a pie plate.

YMMV

Personally I prefer being overgunned and shoot MOA or less vs either of your options ‍

Not everyone who is dumb enough to shoot tiny guns at big animals can shoot 1/2 MOA and not everyone that shoots 300 mags struggle to keep it on a pie plate. You are using extremes on both directions.

 

[375Ruger416]

I'm not saying one should. I'm only giving perspective. We killed 3 giraffe this past trip. My wife used a 375h&h with a mono 300gr bullet. My middle son used a 375Ruger with 300 DGX. My youngest used a 6.5CM with a 129SST.

375h&h 1 shot zipped through it, bull was down in about 2-3 minutes. (120-yards)

375Ruger took 4 shots and was down in 3-4 minutes. (90- yards)

6.5CM 1 shot, Bull was on the ground in 45 seconds. (127-yards)

All 3 were shot in the shoulder, so bullet placement were all close to the same area.

IMO, good, versatile small bore cartridges start with the 6.5 caliber and go up. Nothing magical about the 6.5, but the 6.5 CM works as well as it does because of modest velocity, adequate sectional density, reasonable energy, and decent frontal diameter. This combination of features leads to rare failures due to inadequate penetration, bullet blowup, inadequate tissue damage, etc. Other cartridges with these characteristics will do so as well. I think this is the a reason the 220 gr 30/06 load has such a good reputation despite its range limitations due to modest velocity.

I’m not surprised an SST in the vitals killed faster than a DGX or monometal despite the caliber difference. I wonder what the on game performance would be like with the same bullet construction in those three cartridges - say a partition or swift A frame since I’m not aware of a 375 caliber SST. Obviously, it worked well in your case and given a potentially recoil sensitive shooter was the reason it was chosen. I suspect that if you shot a thousand giraffe comparing those three loads more would be lost (not recovered) due to inadequate penetration/bullet blowup of the SST. On the other hand, the dgx/monometal would, as you saw, have slightly slower killing and slightly further tracking distances but would more reliably kill all animals hit with a shot that would penetrate through the vitals.

Shot placement is the most important, but I like having more margin for failure in the other features which affect terminal performance. I wouldn’t choose to shoot a giraffe with a 6.5 CM myself, but I would allow my son to do so (assuming he was shooting well as yours was) in a situation where he was backed up by a PH and an experienced hunter.

Anyway, those are my rambling thoughts this morning - thanks for you hunt report by the way!

 

[375Ruger416]

Personally I prefer being overgunned and shoot MOA or less vs either of your options ‍

And not everyone who shoots tiny guns at big animals can shoot 1/2 MOA and not everyone that shoots 300 mags struggles to keep it on a pie plate

To quote Boddington, ‘I find the concept of being over gunned a great deal more nebulous than being under gunned.’ Pick a ‘reasonable’ caliber that you can shoot well and go for it! We all know that shooting a whitetail for in the ass with a 338 WM isn’t going to result in a clean kill. I see no reason to be at the extremes of things myself.

 

[TERMINATOR]

To quote Boddington, ‘I find the concept of being over gunned a great deal more nebulous than being under gunned.’ Pick a ‘reasonable’ caliber that you can shoot well and go for it! We all know that shooting a whitetail for in the ass with a 338 WM isn’t going to result in a clean kill. I see no reason to be at the extremes of things myself.

I never advocated shooting anything up the ass

I just like having enough gun to blow through both shoulders of everything I shoot after I wait for them to turn.

Makes tracking really easy when they are DRT