What’s the thoughts on the .223 on all plains game with a match bullet trend?

[375Ruger416]

I never advocated shooting anything up the ass

I just like having enough gun to blow through both shoulders of everything I shoot after I wait for them to turn.

Makes tracking really easy when they are DRT

I agree with you. Use a large enough cartridge that you can shoot well. If it’s not a reasonable cartridge for the game you’re hunting, practice until you’re proficient with one that is.

I think the reason small cartridges kill better than expected is that they are placed accurately. No question a bigger cartridge has the potential to kill more cleanly given the same shot placement. The problem is that they often aren’t. People discount the importance of adequate cartridge performance on game (see 6.5 CM for the elk) as well as the adverse effect of recoil on shot placement (see Kevin Robertson’s comments on Wby cartridges for big game hunting in his books).

In other words, it’s an optimization problem for each individual hunter, not an absolute answer that bigger is better or that shot placement is the only thing that matters. Which goes back to my contention that there is less difference between cartridges than we suppose. I’m narrowing my hunting cartridges down to 223 (coyote, varmints), 6.5 Prc (deer, pronghorn, small plains game), 300 PRC(elk, moose, large plains game), and 375 H&H (large plains game, DG). With the possible addition of a 6.5 CM L hand for my boys to use as a first game rifle. Limited overlap between cartridges, and each one ideal for a certain class of game.

I contend there is little difference in effectiveness on deer sized game between the 6.5 PRC and 300 PRC. But for elk, there clearly is. LOL I think at this point I’m just rambling, but I do want to agree with you about having enough gun.

 

[TERMINATOR]

I agree with you. Use a large enough cartridge that you can shoot well. If it’s not a reasonable cartridge for the game you’re hunting, practice until you’re proficient with one that is.

I think the reason small cartridges kill better than expected is that they are placed accurately. No question a bigger cartridge has the potential to kill more cleanly given the same shot placement. The problem is that they often aren’t. People discount the importance of adequate cartridge performance on game (see 6.5 CM for the elk) as well as the adverse effect of recoil on shot placement (see Kevin Robertson’s comments on Wby cartridges for big game hunting in his books).

In other words, it’s an optimization problem for each individual hunter, not an absolute answer that bigger is better or that shot placement is the only thing that matters. Which goes back to my contention that there is less difference between cartridges than we suppose. I’m narrowing my hunting cartridges down to 223 (coyote, varmints), 6.5 Prc (deer, pronghorn, small plains game), 300 PRC(elk, moose, large plains game), and 375 H&H (large plains game, DG). With the possible addition of a 6.5 CM L hand for my boys to use as a first game rifle. Limited overlap between cartridges, and each one ideal for a certain class of game.

I contend there is little difference in effectiveness on deer sized game between the 6.5 PRC and 300 PRC. But for elk, there clearly is. LOL I think at this point I’m just rambling, but I do want to agree with you about having enough gun.

Well I also don’t disagree that shot placement is paramount

I just want the trifecta of 1) Good Shooting Angle 2) Accurate Shot 3) Enough cartridge with a Premium Bullet to punch though the animal’s far shoulder after I am patient enough to wait for the good angle snd skilled enough to make an accurate shot

Shame on anyone who isn’t patient, can’t shoot or fails to use an adequate cartridge/bullet

Fortunately for me, after 50 years of hunting and shooting I have learned to shoot powerful guns accurately.

Case in point…this pic is me checking my Zero upon arrival at camp for my 2023 Cape Buffalo hunt. I put 3 shots in a 2 1/2 in bullseye at 100 yards.

With my .416 Rem Mag Win 70 Safari Express
I have no issues shooting it off the bench

Same with my .300 Wby Mark V Accumark

Shoot the biggest gun you can shoot accurately…bottom line.

For me that is a 416 Rem Mag for DG and a .300 Wby for PG.
For someone else that might be bigger or smaller

But to use LESS THAN an adequate cartridge is stupidity and showboating and disrespectful to the animals being shot.

If you can’t shoot a .375 accurately…you’re gonna have to stick to plains game.
If a 7mm-08 is too much gun for you to shoot accurately…you should stick to hunting coyotes in the US. Jus sayin

I can tell you that the PH and trackers had a lot of confidence that nobody was gonna die after watching me check my zero at 100 yards

 

[KCSafari]

It’ll work. I’ve shot over a hundred plains game with a 223. Typically head and neck shots. Everything ranging from impala, kudu, bwb, and gemsbok. If you don’t see the animals every day I would say a 243 should be minimum. Everything should be done to minimize risk of wounding an animal and that goes for caliber choice.

 

[dogcat1]

Yes, it will kill. No, very very poor choice of caliber. Stupid stupid stupid choice for too many reasons

 

[John Wasmuth]

….

 

[hoytcanon]

View attachment 628037

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That is a trophy head there!

The buffalo is nice too...

 

[mark-hunter]

I have no idea why guys use match bullets for hunting. I

Some misconception. Some people think that because of hole on the tip, match bullet is hollow point and will expand on impact.

 

[skydiver386]

Some misconception. Some people think that because of hole on the tip, match bullet is hollow point and will expand on impact.

Exactly.

This is from Sierra Bullets own website:
No, it’s not recommended. The MatchKing bullets are designed for pinpoint accuracy; with no consideration given to what might happen after impact. If the bullet has arrived on target accurately, its job is done at that point. Hunting bullets must perform in a certain manner after impact. Penetrating ability, expansion characteristics and even profile must be considered when designing a hunting bullet. Use MatchKings for matches, and game bullets for hunting.

Can I use a MatchKing bullet for deer hunting? They shoot just great in my rifle, so they should be just super for hunting use, right? - Sierra Bullets

www.sierrabullets.com

 

[Spongebob]

It really depends on your level of comfort as a hunter. A few members mentioned above, with the right combination, velocities and shot placement anything will drop.

Is it recommended, most probably not from an ethical standpoint. Each hunter must know their limits and select appropriate weapons for animals being harvested.

That being said, have seen a blesbok drop on its back with a 620m shot with a 308 using a 170gn ELDM.

 

[375Fox]

Exactly.

This is from Sierra Bullets own website:
No, it’s not recommended. The MatchKing bullets are designed for pinpoint accuracy; with no consideration given to what might happen after impact. If the bullet has arrived on target accurately, its job is done at that point. Hunting bullets must perform in a certain manner after impact. Penetrating ability, expansion characteristics and even profile must be considered when designing a hunting bullet. Use MatchKings for matches, and game bullets for hunting.

Can I use a MatchKing bullet for deer hunting? They shoot just great in my rifle, so they should be just super for hunting use, right? - Sierra Bullets

www.sierrabullets.com

I wish you had posted first. When common knowledge says not a good idea then the bullet manufacturer itself puts in writing not recommended, I think that’s the final answer.

 

[TERMINATOR]

Exactly.

This is from Sierra Bullets own website:
No, it’s not recommended. The MatchKing bullets are designed for pinpoint accuracy; with no consideration given to what might happen after impact. If the bullet has arrived on target accurately, its job is done at that point. Hunting bullets must perform in a certain manner after impact. Penetrating ability, expansion characteristics and even profile must be considered when designing a hunting bullet. Use MatchKings for matches, and game bullets for hunting.

Can I use a MatchKing bullet for deer hunting? They shoot just great in my rifle, so they should be just super for hunting use, right? - Sierra Bullets

www.sierrabullets.com

Hence why they make the Gameking
Which are probably just as accurate

 

[Josh P]

Hence why they make the Gameking
Which are probably just as accurate

There is an argument for the MK over the GK based, not on product description, but real world results. They have similar external ballistics, but the terminal ballistics are different. I’m not asking you to believe me, just to check out the thread if you want to see real world results of what some of those rounds are capable of.

 

[375Fox]

Hence why they make the Gameking
Which are probably just as accurate

Neither should be used on large game in 223 though

 

[skydiver386]

The problem of using the MK type bullet for hunting is they are totally inconsistent in their expansion. One may expand wildly, and produce a large wound channel. Another from the same lot may collapse it's nose in on itself and not expand at all. In the latter case, the wound is similar to the icepick type produced by an FMJ bullet.

If a lung is hit, the animal now has a painful sucking chest wound that may not be immediately fatal. As a matter of fact it may recover completely, except for the damage done to the lung. This is no way to treat the animals we hunt.

In my first post on this subject I hinted at this problem. You may see spectacular success, but you will also see spectacular failures, which one is a roll of the dice.

 

[TERMINATOR]

Neither should be used on large game in 223 though

100%

I have had devastating results on deer size game w .30 cal 180 Gamekings though

But it was not unusual to have complete separation of the core from the jacket

Which is Why don’t use them anymore and run the Nosler Accubond or Swift Scirocco 180s now

My M70 30-06 loves the factory 175 gr Ferderal Terminal Ascent factory rounds true deadly on Blue WB, Common Reedbuck and Duiker last summer

 

[hoytcanon]

There is an argument for the MK over the GK based, not on product description, but real world results. They have similar external ballistics, but the terminal ballistics are different. I’m not asking you to believe me, just to check out the thread if you want to see real world results of what some of those rounds are capable of.

I have also seem them fail miserably on big bears, so don't get to high on them.

 

[TERMINATOR]

I have also seem them fail miserably on big bears, so don't get to high on them.

The other thing I always remember is that nobody can show you pictures of the ones that didn’t die right away and staggered off to die somewhere never to be found…

 

[mdwest]

I’ve heard of several hunters moving from Hornadys ELD-X pro hunter factory ammo to their ELD-M Match/Precision ammo for hunting… supposedly the bullets are very similar in terms of jacket thickness, make up, etc.. but the match bullet goes through an additional process or two to make it slightly more consistent/accurate…

Not my cup of tea.. I’ll stick to ttsx in pretty much everything I shoot.. with the one exception being hornady CX in my 300 prc… but that’s only because that particular rifle doesn’t seem to like Barnes..

A buddy in Montana that is a very successful deer and elk hunter swears by the ELD-M though…

 

[Josh P]

I have also seem them fail miserably on big bears, so don't get to high on them.

I’m not high on them. I just find there to be a compelling amount of evidence that suggests 223 isn’t entirely rubbish for anything bigger than a rabbit.

Additionally, I would be interested in seeing failed terminal ballistics (if the animal had to have a follow up from another weapons, etc.) for comparison. I don’t sell the things so I have no skin in the game, but I like seeing the data and examples from both sides. Unfortunately, as has been stated in multiple settings, most people don’t post pictures of their failures.

 

[Inline6]

Unfortunately, as has been stated in multiple settings, most people don’t post pictures of their failures.

That goes for both small and large bullets. The mono my wife used on her giraffe did not open up. The giraffe died, the bullet did fail to open.

This is one of those subjects that not everyone will every agree on. It is definitely up to an individual to do their due diligence and press on.

I'm personally not a fan of mono bullets, they do not kill as quickly from my experience. I'm not going to say they don't work. I'm just saying until I do not have a choice, I have no plans for using them on game.