What’s the thoughts on the .223 on all plains game with a match bullet trend?

[pilar]

I agree about the naivety, on both sides. Just because “people on the internet” say one way or the other doesn’t mean it’s hard truth. Like many things in life, there are a variety of factors.

Looking at the terminal ballistics results of the bear and moose, do you honestly think it’s inappropriate for an experienced hunter to use the proper 223 bullet to hunt those animals?

Looks like Alaska has a proposed statute #11 to fix this?

“
PROPOSAL 11
5 AAC 92.085. Unlawful methods of taking big game; exceptions.
Establish a minimum caliber rifle to be used to harvest moose in Unit 18 as follows:
Restrict the use of centerfire and rimfire rifles .224 caliber and smaller and require a minimum of
.243 or 6 mm caliber centerfire rifles for the harvest of moose in Unit 18.
What is the issue you would like the board to address and why? Many moose are killed every
year and not harvested as a result of a lack of regulation requiring a minimum caliber rifle to be
allowed for harvest of moose in Unit 18. Moose and the number of moose killed need to be
accurately communicated, especially in areas that close upon a predetermined quota.
Unfortunately, moose are shot with rifles and ammo that are inadequate to kill them.
Moose are one of the largest North American big game species. A common rifle to hunt moose in
Unit 18 is the .223 Remington. It is true that centerfire 22 caliber rifles like the .223 and even
smaller can effectively kill moose depending on shot placement. Unfortunately, with the high
number of variables, perfect shot placement is not a guarantee every time a trigger is pulled, and
often can end in a dead and unharvested moose. Because of this, the true number of moose killed
is higher than what is reported at harvest, thus negatively impacting the number of moose that can
be harvested for subsistence purposes. In addition, this is an ethical problem too. Many times, if a
moose is shot with a .223 or smaller rifle, the moose will not fall where it was shot, but rather run
off. It is not unusual to harvest moose that have been previously shot with .223 caliber rifles. These
moose often cannot be harvested, since large portions are infected and abscessed. Another common
situation is moose shot in the jaw by hunters attempting head shots with .223. Moose hit in the jaw
by smaller caliber centerfire rifles can appear unharmed leaving the hunter to think they simply
missed, when in reality, the moose travels a great distance shot in the jaw, left to starve, unable to
chew its food. Finally, one of the most common uses of the .223 and other centerfire 22 caliber
rifles and smaller in North America is predator/varmint hunting. As a result, a majority of the
ammo loaded commercially for .223 and sold in Unit 18 use hollow point or other fragmenting
ballistic tip bullets, none of which are made for the deep bone breaking penetration needed to
effectively kill moose. Rather, ballistic tip and hollow point bullets so commonly loaded for the
.223 are designed to penetrate and explode inside the body of the coyote, fox or other
predator/varmint targeted. Frequently, when these types of bullets are used for big game, especially
moose, the targeted animal is maimed by a bullet that comes apart before getting adequate
penetration to effectively kill the moose.””

I had avoided this RS tread because it was to silly and unethical and arrogant
Then some people opened a thread about shooting medium size African game
With a .224 cal and it incensed me enough to ask over here
It’s comical that the bashing I took as being “”a ignorant Fudd”” with zero knowledge of terminal bullet trauma

 

[Inline6]

While planning my eland hunt, several PH's sent me pics of bulls that allegedly (and apparently) weighed in at about 1 ton. We also talked about failure to cleanly kill them with several cartridges including a 308, a 6.5CM and others. While I am a fan of light rifles in general, this accumulated data prompted me to take a 300 Win Mag on my eland hunt, and to use a 200 grain Barnes at 2870fps. This load proved just right. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I remember two mule deer bucks that I shot with a 223 and 55 grain Win soft point. Both with poor results, and only one recovered. There was no excuse for such behavior on my part, and it will never happen again. Varmint bullets are for varmints. Plains game deserves better.....FWB

I'm not sure how the percentages play out XX% bullet placement XX% bullet construction XX% luck = dead animal.

I can say from personal experience speed kills. I know that is not a popular belief here and understand why.

My youngest son at 5 killed his first white with a 223. Killed several more on top of that. The last buck he shot in the neck at 163 yards. The buck dropped and you could tell it was not down. He managed to get to the woods and we knew we were going to have to track him. We talked for 2 minutes on our plan. We looked up and he was crawling on the ground moving away from us. I put another round in his neck at the same distance. He dropped and when limp. We headed out the door to collect him(we were in a blind). As we were walking out the door I looked back to watch him stand up and walk away like nothing had happened. We for a lot coagulated blood, no deer. We were using 55gr TAP. Can't tell you why he did not stay down. That night I switched the stocks between the 223 and the 6.5CM. G shot a buck the next day in the same spot. We haven't hunted with a 223 since.

G killed a lot of PG with a 6.5CM, if we were using a 223. The animals he took would not have been the same ones.

 

[Dirtdart]

If I were culling and/or meat hunting.. I dont think a 223 is inappropriate... hit any small to medium PG animal in the brain with a 70gr bonded 223 and its going down where it stands.. I might even consider an eland as long as I limited myself to a headshot..

but for a trophy hunt.. nope... not me...

I agree 100% that the practice is a completely different scenario than the typical trophy hunt.

 

[Josh P]

@poco, there’s a larger number of posters engaging from the tailgate with beer in hand over there. I’d like to think we could have the same discussion here without anyone being called an ignorant fudd.

 

[Flewis]

I will rather not comment.......

You don’t have to. We know you are grinding your teeth about now.

 

[TOBY458]

I’ve used a few different 22 caliber rounds on whitetail deer. 22 Hornet, 223, and 22/250. And my dad shot several truck loads with a 22/250. Shot placement is key, and a good bullet is just as important. You’d be absolutely surprised at the internal damage a fast moving 22 caliber bullet will do. However, I agree with most that it’s far from ideal under quite a few circumstances. Therefore I didn’t follow in my dad’s footsteps in regards to being a small bore fan. Especially on game larger than a whitetail deer.

 

[YancyW]

I’ve used a few different 22 caliber rounds on whitetail deer. 22 Hornet, 223, and 22/250. And my dad shot several truck loads with a 22/250. Shot placement is key, and a good bullet is just as important. You’d be absolutely surprised at the internal damage a fast moving 22 caliber bullet will do. However, I agree with most that it’s far from ideal under quite a few circumstances. Therefore I didn’t follow in my dad’s footsteps in regards to being a small bore fan. Especially on game larger than a whitetail deer.

The old 22 hornet always seemed to preform best from late evening until just before daybreak, at least where I grew up.

 

[Josh P]

The old 22 hornet always seemed to preform best from late evening until just before daybreak, at least where I grew up.

A customer was looking at a used bolt action 22mag once. I told him, “If you buy that AND a Maglight at the same time, I have to call the game warden.” The look on his face gave him away.

 

[mark-hunter]

I’m truly baffled with these guys post on rockslide that , a .223 , 22cm , 22-250 ,ect
Shooting a 77gr match bullet , is more than adequate for hunting kudos, eland , gembuck , waterbuck, ect ( large PG ) , shooting a unbonded 22cal explosive bullet through the ribs , seems like a disaster to me , yet there are multiple people saying explosive small caliber is more effective then say a 7x57 with a bonded bullet.
What’s your opinion? I’m sure you can see I disagree

223 and similar, are poachers caliber. Shot in the head.

This is not large plains game bullet.
Difference between hunter and poacher is that hunter pays for wounding or killing, a poacher does not pay for anything.

People saying otherwise: well, ask them how many safaris have they done so far, and how they paid for wounding if hunting with 223 and similar?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

223 for impala I think is no problem at all...

Ive been scarred for life by the two blesbok hunts Ive been on lol.. Im convinced those nasty bastards require a 416 or larger to get a clean, effective kill lol...

One the first one we hunted, my wife hit the blesbok with a 168gr TTSX from her 308... a typical "deer" shot.. slightly too far back.. but it should have killed the animal...

we tracked that thing for a couple of hours before finally catching up and bumping him.. I then hit him with my 375 H&H... in the boiler room.. he got up and ran again... it took us another couple of hundred yards to catch up with him.. and I had to put another 375 in him (he was done.. laying down, unable to move anymore.. but still hanging in there.. so I hit him again...)...

On the second blesbok hunt (mine).. I hit the animal with a 168gr TTSX.. he ran 300 yards.. we hit him with a second 168gr TTSX... and then he got up and ran another hundred yards or so and I had to hit him with a third TTSX...

those little googly eyed beasts are my nemesis lol..

Yep. Blesbuck are tougher than they look. I had to shoot my last one three times with 168 gr TSX 30-06. Knocked him down with a boiler room shot at about 150 yards. As we are walking up I see he's struggling. PH says "Give him time." I gave him quite a bit of time then decided to walk up and finish the poor bugger. At about fifteen yards he climbs to his feet and staggers off like a drunk sailor. "Wait. He's not going far." He went forty yards and that was enough for me. I put one into his ribs quartering away and knocked the ram down. PH: "He's done now. I'm going back for the truck." I walk up and damned if it wasn't still breathing. Spinal shot at base of neck finally finished him.

 

[Safari Dave]

My son is a big RS fan.
He and I are, constantly, having friendly arguments.


I've taken about 100 big game animals.
He has taken 7.

I would, in no way, dismiss the experience of "Formidilosis". He is, obviously, a very experienced hunter, and an excellent shooter. He probably has and does work for APHIS (United States Department of Agriculture, Animal Plant and Health Inspection Service). I have hired that organization on two occasions to do animal control work for local governments. They do excellent work and are VERY professional.

I have read many of his post, and have listened to several of his interviews, and have never found a flaw in his rational.

However, IMO, his vast experience in taking NA animals should not be taken as the final word on big-game hunting.

I agree, that bullet placement is more important than anything, a light recoiling rifle will give the most practical accuracy, and a bullet that does the most damage as possible is a close second to perfect bullet placement.

However, African hunting is, often, a short range affair. He is still correct, but sometimes, especially in Africa, you need a rifle that will penetrate deeply, break heavy bones, etc.

I have no doubt that a .223 will kill any animal on the planet with perfect placement and the proper bullet.

I would choose a .375 H&H or a .416 Rigby, if I could only have one rifle.


Sometimes, you just can't make a perfect shot...

 

[Doug3006]

The response to this topic in general is a pretty good way to gauge a person’s reading comprehension, open/closed mindedness, and willingness to observe and accept objective data-based information for making informed decisions on specific heavy-for-caliber choices. Nuance is a thing.

Really? You can tell all that from one response to one topic?

 

[RR 314]

I’ve used a few different 22 caliber rounds on whitetail deer. 22 Hornet, 223, and 22/250. And my dad shot several truck loads with a 22/250. Shot placement is key, and a good bullet is just as important. You’d be absolutely surprised at the internal damage a fast moving 22 caliber bullet will do. However, I agree with most that it’s far from ideal under quite a few circumstances. Therefore I didn’t follow in my dad’s footsteps in regards to being a small bore fan. Especially on game larger than a whitetail deer.

Yes sir. I shot around 30 whitetail over the course of a weekend with a .224 TTH. From memory, I don’t believe any of them took a step. Personally, I would feel confident with that gun in Africa, but I’m sure it would make the PH and tracker nervous initially.

 

[Josh P]

Really? You can tell all that from one response to one topic?

Yes. When someone hops into that thread and says something to the rhythm of “You’re all stupid for trying to kill a bear with a 55gr FMJ from Nam! Idiots!” it is very clear they did not read any of the objectively or subjectivity submitted reports and observations of specific bullet performance, and if they did they have no comprehension of what they read or its context. There are 411 pages to that thread, but it would probably only be half that if not for the clockwork like chiming in of people dismissing the caliber carte blanche because they lack the capacity to recognize that not every 223 fired at game is 55 bulk surplus from a 1/12 twist barrel. It’s tiresome, and I myself have been enjoying the feedback from knowledgeable African hunters here giving their accounts and their feedback as it relates the caliber, positive and negative both.

 

[Flewis]

So if the 22s are good up to eland then the 17s should at least be good for lion right?

 

[375er]

So if the 22s are good up to eland then the 17s should at least be good for lion right?

"HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS"!

 

[Safari Dave]

I have a friend who killed a tiger in "Nam" a .308!

 

[Mekaniks]

I have a friend who killed a tiger in "Nam" a .308!

Glad it worked out. I going to bet that there have been more than a few cats killed with a 30-06…
My son (age 13 at time) took a blue wildebeest with a 243 and one well placed shot to the shoulder. It all worked that time…
The only reason I let him do it was because I was next to him with my .338 and could have put the beest down if things went bad….
I would never recommend it to anyone that asks….

 

[Safari Dave]

I think I remember seeing a picture of Jack O'Conner's wife with a tiger taken with a .30/06.

(Which is probably, just fine)


Having to take a leopard with a .375 may be more problematic, in the opposite direction...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Looks like Alaska has a proposed statute #11 to fix this?

“
PROPOSAL 11
5 AAC 92.085. Unlawful methods of taking big game; exceptions.
Establish a minimum caliber rifle to be used to harvest moose in Unit 18 as follows:
Restrict the use of centerfire and rimfire rifles .224 caliber and smaller and require a minimum of
.243 or 6 mm caliber centerfire rifles for the harvest of moose in Unit 18.
What is the issue you would like the board to address and why? Many moose are killed every
year and not harvested as a result of a lack of regulation requiring a minimum caliber rifle to be
allowed for harvest of moose in Unit 18. Moose and the number of moose killed need to be
accurately communicated, especially in areas that close upon a predetermined quota.
Unfortunately, moose are shot with rifles and ammo that are inadequate to kill them.
Moose are one of the largest North American big game species. A common rifle to hunt moose in
Unit 18 is the .223 Remington. It is true that centerfire 22 caliber rifles like the .223 and even
smaller can effectively kill moose depending on shot placement. Unfortunately, with the high
number of variables, perfect shot placement is not a guarantee every time a trigger is pulled, and
often can end in a dead and unharvested moose. Because of this, the true number of moose killed
is higher than what is reported at harvest, thus negatively impacting the number of moose that can
be harvested for subsistence purposes. In addition, this is an ethical problem too. Many times, if a
moose is shot with a .223 or smaller rifle, the moose will not fall where it was shot, but rather run
off. It is not unusual to harvest moose that have been previously shot with .223 caliber rifles. These
moose often cannot be harvested, since large portions are infected and abscessed. Another common
situation is moose shot in the jaw by hunters attempting head shots with .223. Moose hit in the jaw
by smaller caliber centerfire rifles can appear unharmed leaving the hunter to think they simply
missed, when in reality, the moose travels a great distance shot in the jaw, left to starve, unable to
chew its food. Finally, one of the most common uses of the .223 and other centerfire 22 caliber
rifles and smaller in North America is predator/varmint hunting. As a result, a majority of the
ammo loaded commercially for .223 and sold in Unit 18 use hollow point or other fragmenting
ballistic tip bullets, none of which are made for the deep bone breaking penetration needed to
effectively kill moose. Rather, ballistic tip and hollow point bullets so commonly loaded for the
.223 are designed to penetrate and explode inside the body of the coyote, fox or other
predator/varmint targeted. Frequently, when these types of bullets are used for big game, especially
moose, the targeted animal is maimed by a bullet that comes apart before getting adequate
penetration to effectively kill the moose.””

I had avoided this RS tread because it was to silly and unethical and arrogant
Then some people opened a thread about shooting medium size African game
With a .224 cal and it incensed me enough to ask over here
It’s comical that the bashing I took as being “”a ignorant Fudd”” with zero knowledge of terminal bullet trauma

I think .243 for Ontario moose would be nuts. But Alaska/Yukon variety is an immense bugger. 308 should be the bare minimum for those in my opinion.