45-70 for dangerous game?

[Tundra Tiger]

Furthermore, you are making assumptions and statements about things for which you have no actual direct experience. You are most certainly entitled to your opinions, but please have the decency to present them as that.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

It's fine for the American/Asian bears (all species) and African/Asian leopards. For other African/Asian dangerous game, it would make for an extremely poor choice.

Yes, it has seen a few cases of success against African dangerous game via picked shots. A hotly loaded .45-70 Government can kill a cow elephant with a side brain shot using a Cutting Edge 325Gr monolithic brass flat nosed Safari Solid provided that the bullet passes above the zygomatic arch. But picked shots at opportune angles cannot dictate the suitability of a caliber for dangerous game.

American bison and African Cape buffalo share nothing in common, barring the fact that they’re both bovines. And the American buffalo hunters of the late 1900s used to employ a very specific technique called “Ringing” for taking down entire herds of bison with their .45-70 Government caliber rifles. They would wound one member of the herd (preferably a cow) with a lung shot which would cause them to cough out copious amounts of blood. The other bison in the herd would get maddened at the sight and smell of blood and start attacking the wounded member of the herd. The hunters would continue to place lung shots on all of the herd members during the commotion… causing them all to start goring each other to death. The last ones standing were then taken down with extra shots (by now being far too weakened from their gunshot and goring wounds to actually present much of a threat). This technique could hardly be classified as sporting today, even in the eyes of the most morally lax hunter. This was done in the days of commercial hunting, in order to harvest bison tongues.

 

[BeeMaa]

BeeMaa,
Not sure why you are upset over this. Ask any PH - do you support using a 45-70 on buffalo or dangerous game? 100% will say not no but heck no. Why persist in using a tool not suited.
The 45-70 is antiquated and under powered.

Further, most African countries will not allow this one as it does not have the power needed.

I'm not upset at all. In fact I have no real dog in the fight because I neither hunt with or own a lever action rifle. Hell, I only own three rifle calibers and only one (the rat caliber...375H&H) is legal for DG.

What is concerning is that a hunter would take it upon themselves to assert their values/ethics/beliefs on other hunters who are acting in a perfectly legal manner. Archery tackle has less energy than a 45-70. .50 caliber air rifles have less energy than a 45-70. Yet all of these hunting techniques are legal (in certain areas).

If a hunter is taking part in a legal DG hunt with the consent and understanding of the PH, why would you be so upset?

 

[BeeMaa]

I will concede that following a wounded DG animal into the thick jess or tall grass is ill-advised with a lever action cartridge, archery tackle or an air rifle. But we are talking about a visiting client hunter, not a PH who's responsible for the safety of the entire hunting party.

We all know that none of the lever gun cartridges have "stopping" capacity. But hunting they have in spades.

 

[John Wasmuth]

…

 

[TOBY458]

BTW, don't get too fixated on the math. I witnessed a guy that put 12 LeverEvolution bullets in a bison, made me sick to watch (I was holding the horses). The guide finally polished it off, way too late in my opinion.

I'd say that was more of a bullet problem than anything. LeverEvolution bullets aren't known for penetration. They probably barely penetrated through the rib cage before blowing apart. I bet a good brass solid would've been another story. That said, I still wouldn't personally use a 45/70 on a Cape Buffalo. Not that I think it wouldn't work. I just have way better choices.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I mostly agree with that @TOBY458 . I will say that with my .338 Marlin that was the ONLY bullet choice available to me at the time. I was skeptical at first. But now? I've killed 10 bull moose with that bullet (as well as other big game) and all were very quick kills that did not go far, and penetration has always been fine. So maybe as much a bullet placement issue too?

 

[TOBY458]

I mostly agree with that @TOBY458 . I will say that with my .338 Marlin that was the ONLY bullet choice available to me at the time. I was skeptical at first. But now? I've killed 10 bull moose with that bullet (as well as other big game) and all were very quick kills that did not go far, and penetration has always been fine. So maybe as much a bullet placement issue too?

Interesting. Wonder if they started bonding them? I've read where they weren't even all that impressive on deer sized game. Just mostly a normal cup and core bullet.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I have no idea. And I have read the same thing, as far as them not being a good bullet. I shot my first bull moose with one in 2011, and have taken 9 bulls since. I have also killed 11 caribou - bulls and cows - and 8 species of PG, to include blue wildebeest and kudu at the upper size end. Zero issues. Maybe I'm just really, really lucky? But I quit worrying a while ago.

 

[BeeMaa]

Interesting. Wonder if they started bonding them? I've read where they weren't even all that impressive on deer sized game. Just mostly a normal cup and core bullet.

According to Hornady, the LEVERevolution bullet is bonded from 25-35WIN to 450MARLIN. At least for current production.

We all know that Hornady could have changed it at nearly anytime along the way.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Maybe some of my early bulls were just a bit soft from easy living.

 

[Woodcarver]

BTW, don't get too fixated on the math. I witnessed a guy that put 12 LeverEvolution bullets in a bison, made me sick to watch (I was holding the horses). The guide finally polished it off, way too late in my opinion.

After the results of using the 325FTX in a 458Socom to whack a coyote, I will not use one for any big game. At 65 yards and only 1650fps, it obviously blew up on impact, much like a varmint bullet. Hit just behind the right shoulder on a slightly angling to shot, it took out the other side, completely. Not what I want for a large game animal. A bit gory, but this was the result (yeah, this was a really mangy coyote)

On the other hand, using a 405gr Rem SP at 1750fps, I had end to end penetration on a moose at a shade over 100 yards. Hit him 3 times, 1st was broadside, 2nd slightly quartering away as he started to turn, and the 3rd hit his left ham. All 3 were found in the wreckage of that huge right shoulder ball. Only one "failed", in that I did have core/jacket separation. I believe it was the first as that one took out the left shoulder on it's way through the heart to impact the right shoulder. The other 2 weighed over 390gr.

I decided I would rather have more punch on a buffalo whenever I get that opportunity, so I now have a 458 Lott for that purpose. But with a hard cast or heavy jacketed or solid 400gr bullet, the 45-70 has proven it can, and has, killed cape buffalo. And I do really like lever guns; it is tempting.

 

[TOBY458]

I have an unfired Marlin/Ruger Trapper in 45/70 that I acquired recently in a trade. Maybe I should take it for my 2025 Elephant hunt??? LOL!!!

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Ok I am wrong. I looked up the post again and it was a 300 gr bullet at 2500 fps. That is about 4200 ft lbs. So can you actually put a 500 grain bullet into a 45-70 and make it go 2200+ fps? I am thinking no way?

With a max load I get 2160 for a 500 gr. bullet from my .458 WM with a 24" barrel. There is no .45-70 load / rifle combo that was would get anywhere near that.

The .45-70 has been used successfully to take DG up to and the including cape buffalo. I do not know if it has been used for anything bigger. Whether or not it would be legal would depend on the country. It would also depend on how your PH feels about it.

Personally, I would use a more powerful round for buffalo if that is your goal. I haven't killed an elephant or hippo, but if I ever do, I certainly won't have a .45-70 in my hands.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I have an unfired Marlin/Ruger Trapper in 45/70 that I acquired recently in a trade. Maybe I should take it for my 2025 Elephant hunt??? LOL!!!

You should and we want to see a video of the hunt. LOL

 

[TOBY458]

You should and we want to see a video of the hunt. LOL

I'll be too busy running to film it. Lol!

 

[HankBuck]

BeeMaa,
Not sure why you are upset over this. Ask any PH - do you support using a 45-70 on buffalo or dangerous game? 100% will say not no but heck no. Why persist in using a tool not suited.
The 45-70 is antiquated and under powered.

Further, most African countries will not allow this one as it does not have the power needed.

Dogcat1: where did you get your information? It is incorrect in so many areas that you really should share your “source” and let us all chastise her/her/them. Let’s start with your ballistics assumptions - from 1880 black powder loads?? 1). More then enough power from modern .45-70 loads = 350 gr hard cast 2150 fps and generating 3600 ft pounds of energy or 405 gr load at 2000 fps and 3590 ft pounds. 2). Many PH are fine with .45-70 for Buffalo after seeing clients fail to handle the recoil of larger magnums (.500; .460 Weatherby etc.). 3). a .45-70 was Legal in Tanzania on my Safari and my PH said “many clients take buffalo with .45-70”. His assistant carried a .45-70 for a back up gun while we hunted. Some African Countries require a .375 H&H for Leopard (a 120 to 180 pound cat)…when a .30-06 or .300 win mag has proven very effective. Grab a .45-70 and fire a box of Buffalo Bore ammo — see if you can get off 20 rounds without a bruise.…these ain’t Great Great Granpa’s .45-70 loads.

 

[HankBuck]

No. The 45-70 or 45-90 or 50-110 are not dangerous game calibers. The bullets, the energy are all lacking. Can you kill a buff with one? Yes. But you are putting yourself and others are risk as this is not powerful enough to get the penetration and impact you need to kill dangerous game.

I get it that many do this. I have seen the videos. The latest I saw was a guy in Uganda shooting a buff at about 75 yards. After 6 shots, he used a bolt gun to finish the job.

Leave this caliber at home....

No. The 45-70 or 45-90 or 50-110 are not dangerous game calibers. The bullets, the energy are all lacking. Can you kill a buff with one? Yes. But you are putting yourself and others are risk as this is not powerful enough to get the penetration and impact you need to kill dangerous game.

I get it that many do this. I have seen the videos. The latest I saw was a guy in Uganda shooting a buff at about 75 yards. After 6 shots, he used a bolt gun to finish the job.

Leave this caliber at home....

"Ask any PH - do you support using a 45-70 on buffalo or dangerous game? 100% will say not no but heck no."

100%? Really? I did ask mine (he is also the owner). He gave me his blessing, as I discussed loads with him. On my second trip, I hunted with a different PH; he also gave it his blessing. I have had conversations on here with other sponsor PHs, who have told me they are good with it on some species of DG. Sooo... not sure where you are getting that 100% from?

TUNDRA - it is “100%” but it’s 100% WRONG

It's fine for the American/Asian bears (all species) and African/Asian leopards. For other African/Asian dangerous game, it would make for an extremely poor choice.

Yes, it has seen a few cases of success against African dangerous game via picked shots. A hotly loaded .45-70 Government can kill a cow elephant with a side brain shot using a Cutting Edge 325Gr monolithic brass flat nosed Safari Solid provided that the bullet passes above the zygomatic arch. But picked shots at opportune angles cannot dictate the suitability of a caliber for dangerous game.

American bison and African Cape buffalo share nothing in common, barring the fact that they’re both bovines. And the American buffalo hunters of the late 1900s used to employ a very specific technique called “Ringing” for taking down entire herds of bison with their .45-70 Government caliber rifles. They would wound one member of the herd (preferably a cow) with a lung shot which would cause them to cough out copious amounts of blood. The other bison in the herd would get maddened at the sight and smell of blood and start attacking the wounded member of the herd. The hunters would continue to place lung shots on all of the herd members during the commotion… causing them all to start goring each other to death. The last ones standing were then taken down with extra shots (by now being far too weakened from their gunshot and goring wounds to actually present much of a threat). This technique could hardly be classified as sporting today, even in the eyes of the most morally lax hunter. This was done in the days of commercial hunting, in order to harvest bison tongues.

Hunter Habib, I respect your knowledge and vast experience — it certainly exceeds my own. You should test fire some modern .45-70 loads: Buffalo Bore with 350 and 405 gr hard cast bullets - both deliver about 3600 foot pounds of energy - deep penetration, and of course a .45 caliber HOLE…lots of frontal energy and certainly comparable killing power compared to a .375 H&H —-PLUS they leave a bigger hole. It doesn’t shoot as flat and it’s a 150 yrd or closer round but thats where most buff are shot. Also, many leer guns hold 5 rounds and are fast to cycle and rarely jam.

 

[HankBuck]

With a max load I get 2160 for a 500 gr. bullet from my .458 WM with a 24" barrel. There is no .45-70 load / rifle combo that was would get anywhere near that.

The .45-70 has been used successfully to take DG up to and the including cape buffalo. I do not know if it has been used for anything bigger. Whether or not it would be legal would depend on the country. It would also depend on how your PH feels about it.

Personally, I would use a more powerful round for buffalo if that is your goal. I haven't killed an elephant or hippo, but if I ever do, I certainly won't have a .45-70 in my hands.

Doug, I think there is a misconception that big bores need “velocity” for effective killing power. The modern .45-70 loads generate 3500-3600 foot pounds of energy and hard cast 350 gr & 405 gr bullets deliver deep penetration…and they leave a BIG hole. Inside of 150 yrds they should be as good or better then a .375 H&H, they also give 5 shots quickly from a leer action and UNlikely to jam. What’s Not to like?
These aren’t from the Wild Wild West anymore

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Should be as good as a .375 H&H? Maybe, but I have no intention of testing your theory.