45-70 for dangerous game?

[spike.t]

@spike.t ... I have not really done much with the LEVER ammo in .45-70 but I have used it extensively in my .338 Marlin Express. It is the same bullet, just a hair smaller in diameter and a hair faster when it leaves the barrel.

When I bought my .338 ME it was the only commercial ammo I could get. I had reservations about how it would hold up, and some on here have had mixed results. For me? It has been a very solid performer. Even now, with a lifetime of brass and everything I need to reload, I still use factory ammo because it's the most accurate load in my rifle. I have ten bull moose in the dozen years I have used it, and after the first few I gave up worrying about the bullet. All ten have been one shot kills, and while moose aren't terribly difficult to kill, they are quite large.

Additionally I used my .338 ME and the LEVER ammo in Africa in 2021. I shot two bull kudu, a blue wildebeest, blesbok, warthog, 2 impala, and a springbok. Distances were out to 240 yards. Except for the wildebeest (which was a bad first shot by me at an extreme angle), all were dead in very short order without tracking required. My PH was very impressed and very happy - as was I.

Based on that, my opinion is the same bullet in the .45-70 would be fine on PG to 150, and maybe 200 under the right conditions.

Thanks for that info..

 

[michael458]

This thread, like most on 45/70 has been up and down, across the board in opinions, beliefs, judgements, and notions..... some educated, some not so much.........

Lets see if we can come to some reasonable and agreeable conclusions..........

To start, we have to go back to the very beginning and the exact question asked..............

45/70 For Dangerous Game?

This could cover a lot of area, and "Dangerous Game" has to be defined............. We normally consider, in Africa, Dangerous Game being perhaps these, leopard, lion, buffalo, hippo, rhino, elephant maybe crocodile.... this about covers it? Probably so........
However, back in 2000 I was literally charged by an insane Blesbok. Yes, I swear it. My soon to be wife and I were out on one of the Farms in South Africa, we were in the process of attempting a stalk on a nice Warthog. Now we are in wide open area, no trees nothing but grass, and occasionally a small tiny bush to hide behind, nothing more............ So there is this herd of Blesbok at least 200+ yards off to the left. This big warthog was way down to the right, 150+ yards out still. Well, now 150 yards was not that far, but guess what I had in hand....... A Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70. I am trying to recall right now, but I believe I was shooting a standard old 405 Remington at 1800-1850 fps. So we were hands and knees making our way to the warthog, when all the sudden this insane Blesbok made a straight line charge to the warthog, he ran for the entire distance and ran the warthog off........... Then he stood there, looking around for something else to tangle with, and spotted us!!!!! And here he came, he was not running full out, but he was getting along at a good pace, and he kept coming straight for us, did not deviate an inch one way or the other........ I look at my gal, look at the guy we are hunting with from the Farm, and we are just bewildered at this point....... WTF is this about? I get up on one knee and get the rifle up, and he has to see me plain out now, and here he comes.......... When he gets to about 10 steps out, and makes no effort to stop, turn or veer off course I turn a 405 Remington loose straight into frontal chest area, and of course that puts an end to the ordeal. We are just taken completely aback by this behavior. Maybe he wanted to Mate? I don't know, but I was not much into that idea if that is what he had in mind.................. HEH.........

So, was the Blesbok dangerous game? He was that day, and the 45/70 did a jam up job on him. HEH..........But I would consider this the "Exception" and certainly not the rule.

45/70 For Dangerous Game?

And now the qualifying statement;

"My sad and I where discussing DG rifles the other day. He has a newer model marlin lever action in 45-70. Could you make up a dangerous game load for it?"

I am sure he meant his "Dad", typo........ and now we have qualified it to the Marlin Lever Gun, which is an important point.

I think I mentioned this in an earlier post on this thread, but it has been so long and up and down I forget.... but in 2002 I used a Marlin 45/70 Lever gun for buffalo, and at that time, with the bullets available in those days, I really think I was way under gunned for that mission. No, I did not go on that trip with a Marlin in 45/70 to shoot buffalo, that was not the mission, the mission was elephant and that was with a 458 Lott.......... But the PH at the time was so taken with the little guide gun, he wanted to shoot a buffalo with it, I just did the trigger work. Shooting a 420 gr Cast Performance at or around 1850 fps, was just not a suitable bullet for buffalo, especially when heavy bone was contacted. It all turned out well in the end, I solved the issue myself, no help required, but I did not have a decent bullet for that mission. So at that time, the Marlin 45/70 was not suitable for Buffalo, no doubt about it, but it was a lack of really good bullets in 2002.

45/70 and Marlin Lever gun is limited a lot by the platform, and limited pressure. Shooters truly in the know, realize that this platform should not exceed 45000 PSI. I read a lot of guys out there pushing what I know is way beyond that, and I can tell you for a fact, not all lever guns are created equal, some will indeed allow you to shoot heavier loads, and that same load most likely will lock up the next gun tight making it not usable, do not try to repeat the BS you read about, it most likely will do damage to your gun, Marlins operate across the board at 45000 PSI and les..... Winchester 1886s will run a little hotter but would keep them at 50000 PSI. I keep my M71s in 50 B&M Alaskan at 50000 PSI and the Marlins in 50 B&M AK at 45000 PSI as well.

Other platforms, such as a Ruger #1 you can really get a 45/70 going, not quite 458 Winchester, but not too far under that. You can use todays modern bullets and take full advantage of 45/70 case in a Ruger #1. But Dangerous Game Rifle/Cartridge? You got one shot, while experienced shooters can indeed make one work in that capacity, its not for the common hunter to take on. I am a shooter, but I am not good enough with a single shot to personally declare that myself. Although I dearly love a Ruger #1 in bigger calibers and have several.

As Americans, we grew up with the Lever Guns, it is part of our heritage and our history. Many of us have a great affection for lever guns, I do myself. In my development of the B&M Cartridges, there was no way I was not going to have a .500 caliber lever gun. My 50 B&M Alaskan lever guns are a big step above 45/70 simply because of caliber, and of course I incorporated the very best of Bullet Tech from CEB and North Fork. They are big hammers. And in addition, lever guns are fast. But, still with a traditional lever gun, you have those pressure limitations to deal with. Because of this, you just cannot make a lever gun do what a bolt gun can do.

Hunters/Shooters have taken all the Dangerous Game in Africa with a Handgun in years gone by, successfully at that. No normal Handgun, lets say revolver, can really exceed what a 45/70 can do, if you use Bullet Tech that is available. Now yes, there are those big break open POS Contender things chambered in all sorts of cartridges and called handguns, but to me that is not a handgun in the traditional sense. The handgun shooters that take to the field are serious shooters, and well practiced, and it is not their first Rodeo. And, fact is, the handgun hunters were decades ahead of us ignorant ass rifle shooters in bullet tech, they had to be, they had to take advantage of their situation, and did it with bullet tech.... How? Handgun shooters were the first to recognize those big flat nose meplats so commonly used for the last 25+ years. It took our dumb ass a long time to catch on to these advantages with our new modern day Flat Nose Solids.... but finally we got there, thank you Handgun Shooters.

Point being, 45/70 in a lever gun can be enhanced by using and taking advantage of modern day bullet tech. For me, I would now only use CEB Or equal SOLIDS of Brass or Copper, for any Dangerous Game Mission that one might embark upon with a 45/70 Lever gun. Penetration is everything, and a big flat nose solid hits hard enough, and penetrates deep enough to do the job. Now you need to be a shooter, and you need to know your limitations, take your shot carefully and calculated and don't stop shooting until the problem is solved.

Is 45/70 and Marlin Lever guns good enough across the board to consider as a Dangerous Game Rifle/Cartridge? No, not for common hunters and inexperienced shooters. But in a shooters hands, bullet tech enhanced loads, and careful planning you can accomplish the mission without coming up short. Stopping rifle/cartridge? No........ So you better shoot straight, use the correct bullets for the mission at hand............

I was very successful with my lever gun in .500 caliber. But after that hunt, or shoot, I decided that because of the limitations of the lever gun and pressures, I would never go to the field again with anything but big flat nose solids, brass or copper with a lever gun for buffalo or what have you. I was shooting a 405 Lever Solid in .500 caliber at 2125 fps, and getting around 5 ft of penetration in buffalo and hippo, and it knocked the crap out of them when it hit.......good stuff.

In 45/70 I would favor the 400 CEB Lever Solids at 1850 fps, about all you can get and stay under 45000 PSI...... I had a guy once use that for buffalo with success.

I don't know, do we know anymore than we did?

 

[pamtnman]

This thread, like most on 45/70 has been up and down, across the board in opinions, beliefs, judgements, and notions..... some educated, some not so much.........

Lets see if we can come to some reasonable and agreeable conclusions..........

To start, we have to go back to the very beginning and the exact question asked..............

45/70 For Dangerous Game?

This could cover a lot of area, and "Dangerous Game" has to be defined............. We normally consider, in Africa, Dangerous Game being perhaps these, leopard, lion, buffalo, hippo, rhino, elephant maybe crocodile.... this about covers it? Probably so........
However, back in 2000 I was literally charged by an insane Blesbok. Yes, I swear it. My soon to be wife and I were out on one of the Farms in South Africa, we were in the process of attempting a stalk on a nice Warthog. Now we are in wide open area, no trees nothing but grass, and occasionally a small tiny bush to hide behind, nothing more............ So there is this herd of Blesbok at least 200+ yards off to the left. This big warthog was way down to the right, 150+ yards out still. Well, now 150 yards was not that far, but guess what I had in hand....... A Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70. I am trying to recall right now, but I believe I was shooting a standard old 405 Remington at 1800-1850 fps. So we were hands and knees making our way to the warthog, when all the sudden this insane Blesbok made a straight line charge to the warthog, he ran for the entire distance and ran the warthog off........... Then he stood there, looking around for something else to tangle with, and spotted us!!!!! And here he came, he was not running full out, but he was getting along at a good pace, and he kept coming straight for us, did not deviate an inch one way or the other........ I look at my gal, look at the guy we are hunting with from the Farm, and we are just bewildered at this point....... WTF is this about? I get up on one knee and get the rifle up, and he has to see me plain out now, and here he comes.......... When he gets to about 10 steps out, and makes no effort to stop, turn or veer off course I turn a 405 Remington loose straight into frontal chest area, and of course that puts an end to the ordeal. We are just taken completely aback by this behavior. Maybe he wanted to Mate? I don't know, but I was not much into that idea if that is what he had in mind.................. HEH.........

View attachment 579245

So, was the Blesbok dangerous game? He was that day, and the 45/70 did a jam up job on him. HEH..........But I would consider this the "Exception" and certainly not the rule.

45/70 For Dangerous Game?

And now the qualifying statement;

"My sad and I where discussing DG rifles the other day. He has a newer model marlin lever action in 45-70. Could you make up a dangerous game load for it?"

I am sure he meant his "Dad", typo........ and now we have qualified it to the Marlin Lever Gun, which is an important point.

I think I mentioned this in an earlier post on this thread, but it has been so long and up and down I forget.... but in 2002 I used a Marlin 45/70 Lever gun for buffalo, and at that time, with the bullets available in those days, I really think I was way under gunned for that mission. No, I did not go on that trip with a Marlin in 45/70 to shoot buffalo, that was not the mission, the mission was elephant and that was with a 458 Lott.......... But the PH at the time was so taken with the little guide gun, he wanted to shoot a buffalo with it, I just did the trigger work. Shooting a 420 gr Cast Performance at or around 1850 fps, was just not a suitable bullet for buffalo, especially when heavy bone was contacted. It all turned out well in the end, I solved the issue myself, no help required, but I did not have a decent bullet for that mission. So at that time, the Marlin 45/70 was not suitable for Buffalo, no doubt about it, but it was a lack of really good bullets in 2002.

View attachment 579244

45/70 and Marlin Lever gun is limited a lot by the platform, and limited pressure. Shooters truly in the know, realize that this platform should not exceed 45000 PSI. I read a lot of guys out there pushing what I know is way beyond that, and I can tell you for a fact, not all lever guns are created equal, some will indeed allow you to shoot heavier loads, and that same load most likely will lock up the next gun tight making it not usable, do not try to repeat the BS you read about, it most likely will do damage to your gun, Marlins operate across the board at 45000 PSI and les..... Winchester 1886s will run a little hotter but would keep them at 50000 PSI. I keep my M71s in 50 B&M Alaskan at 50000 PSI and the Marlins in 50 B&M AK at 45000 PSI as well.

Other platforms, such as a Ruger #1 you can really get a 45/70 going, not quite 458 Winchester, but not too far under that. You can use todays modern bullets and take full advantage of 45/70 case in a Ruger #1. But Dangerous Game Rifle/Cartridge? You got one shot, while experienced shooters can indeed make one work in that capacity, its not for the common hunter to take on. I am a shooter, but I am not good enough with a single shot to personally declare that myself. Although I dearly love a Ruger #1 in bigger calibers and have several.

As Americans, we grew up with the Lever Guns, it is part of our heritage and our history. Many of us have a great affection for lever guns, I do myself. In my development of the B&M Cartridges, there was no way I was not going to have a .500 caliber lever gun. My 50 B&M Alaskan lever guns are a big step above 45/70 simply because of caliber, and of course I incorporated the very best of Bullet Tech from CEB and North Fork. They are big hammers. And in addition, lever guns are fast. But, still with a traditional lever gun, you have those pressure limitations to deal with. Because of this, you just cannot make a lever gun do what a bolt gun can do.

Hunters/Shooters have taken all the Dangerous Game in Africa with a Handgun in years gone by, successfully at that. No normal Handgun, lets say revolver, can really exceed what a 45/70 can do, if you use Bullet Tech that is available. Now yes, there are those big break open POS Contender things chambered in all sorts of cartridges and called handguns, but to me that is not a handgun in the traditional sense. The handgun shooters that take to the field are serious shooters, and well practiced, and it is not their first Rodeo. And, fact is, the handgun hunters were decades ahead of us ignorant ass rifle shooters in bullet tech, they had to be, they had to take advantage of their situation, and did it with bullet tech.... How? Handgun shooters were the first to recognize those big flat nose meplats so commonly used for the last 25+ years. It took our dumb ass a long time to catch on to these advantages with our new modern day Flat Nose Solids.... but finally we got there, thank you Handgun Shooters.

Point being, 45/70 in a lever gun can be enhanced by using and taking advantage of modern day bullet tech. For me, I would now only use CEB Or equal SOLIDS of Brass or Copper, for any Dangerous Game Mission that one might embark upon with a 45/70 Lever gun. Penetration is everything, and a big flat nose solid hits hard enough, and penetrates deep enough to do the job. Now you need to be a shooter, and you need to know your limitations, take your shot carefully and calculated and don't stop shooting until the problem is solved.

Is 45/70 and Marlin Lever guns good enough across the board to consider as a Dangerous Game Rifle/Cartridge? No, not for common hunters and inexperienced shooters. But in a shooters hands, bullet tech enhanced loads, and careful planning you can accomplish the mission without coming up short. Stopping rifle/cartridge? No........ So you better shoot straight, use the correct bullets for the mission at hand............

I was very successful with my lever gun in .500 caliber. But after that hunt, or shoot, I decided that because of the limitations of the lever gun and pressures, I would never go to the field again with anything but big flat nose solids, brass or copper with a lever gun for buffalo or what have you. I was shooting a 405 Lever Solid in .500 caliber at 2125 fps, and getting around 5 ft of penetration in buffalo and hippo, and it knocked the crap out of them when it hit.......good stuff.

In 45/70 I would favor the 400 CEB Lever Solids at 1850 fps, about all you can get and stay under 45000 PSI...... I had a guy once use that for buffalo with success.

I don't know, do we know anymore than we did?

Fabulous, Michael. Very helpful. In fact when I looked up the Model 71 and dangerous game subjects combined, I got a glimpse of your engraved Model 71 in one of the published articles. This post of yours here needs to be an article in American Hunter Magazine (NRA), minus the "ass" stuff, of course.

 

[BeeMaa]

@michael458 - I love that picture of you and your (soon to be) bride. The look she is giving you is just awesome. She knows who "the man" is. Well done my friend.

 

[OxfordTheCat]

One would think African game are Kevlar skinned and ceramic plated by the tone of some of these responses.

45-70, even in the 405gr trapdoor loads and without getting into any of the special snowflake hot loads, would be more than adequate for any African game short of elephant in the right circumstances. And even then with a cast bullet would likely do just fine if you want to go all Karamojo Bell about it - given the choice between the 45-70 and my 6.5x54 or 7x57 for those type of shenanigans I'd happily choose the 45-70.

The legality of it, or whether it's the ideal cartridge is obviously another matter entirely, and we're firmly into the hypotheticals section of things...

... But the notion that a cartridge that contributed to the very near extinction of tens of millions of 2000lb bison would somehow be incapable of knocking the shit out of 150lb leopards or 400lb lions is nonsense. And would do just fine against buffalo under normal circumstances as well.

I'd wager more lion, leopard, and buffalo have been taken with .303 British than any other caliber (and you could very likely sneak elephant in there). And if you were to combine 303 and 8mm Mauser I'd bet you'd come in ahead of every other caliber combined.

45-70 isn't a stopping rifle. It's not the ideal cartridge.

But the idea that wildlife in Africa are bulletproof and impervious, especially when it comes to something with such a proven pedigree of killing larger game is farcical.

It's a 405gr, .458 bullet, not a stone from a sling shot.

See also - discussions where .375 is a great utility rifle and can reliably take anything you might care to point it at, but 9.3x62/74r is somehow dangerously unsafe and people are irresponsible for even suggesting it be loaded into the bakkie. Bob could probably chime in when it comes to the 35 as well.

Full disclosure: In general, slow moving, heavy for caliber bullets with good SD and penetration is the hill I choose to die on

 

[IvW]

Comparing bison to Cape buffalo well is no comparison.....
405gr .458 bullet has a real bad sd. May be fine for pg....

Has it been sure....is it recommended certainly not.....

 

[PerH]

.45-70 infantry load that also was big game load was the 500 grain one

 

[IvW]

Infantry an dg aint the same thing.....

 

[Certus]

DANGEROUS GAME 45-70 GVT MAGNUM - Mono-Metal

DANGEROUS GAME 45-70 GVT MAGNUM - Mono-Metal. Lead-Free. Field Proven rifle and gun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for rifles and guns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business. BUFFALO-BARNES

www.buffalobore.com

Probably get about 2100fps out of my marlin. Would be comfortable using that on any buffalo.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I like the .45-70, it’s a great ctg. It can be loaded up & down from fun to pain. There was mention of the #1 in .45-70, that’s a different beast altogether, I have loaded the 500gr Hornaday to a chronograph 1800fps, those were not fun & actually broke the reticule in a Redfield scope. I had the 400gr Speer at 2198fps boy did that flatten deer. I won’t go there again, that’s too much for me now, but it can be done safely in a #1.

 

[Woodcarver]

I like the .45-70, it’s a great ctg. It can be loaded up & down from fun to pain. There was mention of the #1 in .45-70, that’s a different beast altogether, I have loaded the 500gr Hornaday to a chronograph 1800fps, those were not fun & actually broke the reticule in a Redfield scope. I had the 400gr Speer at 2198fps boy did that flatten deer. I won’t go there again, that’s too much for me now, but it can be done safely in a #1.

45-70 is one of my favorite cartridges also. Your comment of "from fun to pain" brought back an ugly memory. I have a 45-70 Super 16 barrel for my T/C Contender. With the carbine stock on and a 1-4 Nikon scope, it weighs about 5 1/2lbs. I ran the load I use in my Marlin, 405gr at 1700fps. Calling it "lively" would be an understatement. Drew blood on all 3 rounds I put downrange. Not bad for accuracy, but not worth the beating. Can't imagine shooting it with that load configured as a pistol, lol. Apparently, more than one wrist has been fractured with the trapdoor load at ~1300fps. I plan on trying some 300gr cast around 1400-1500 to see if that is more manageable.

 

[CoElkHunter]

45-70 is one of my favorite cartridges also. Your comment of "from fun to pain" brought back an ugly memory. I have a 45-70 Super 16 barrel for my T/C Contender. With the carbine stock on and a 1-4 Nikon scope, it weighs about 5 1/2lbs. I ran the load I use in my Marlin, 405gr at 1700fps. Calling it "lively" would be an understatement. Drew blood on all 3 rounds I put downrange. Not bad for accuracy, but not worth the beating. Can't imagine shooting it with that load configured as a pistol, lol. Apparently, more than one wrist has been fractured with the trapdoor load at ~1300fps. I plan on trying some 300gr cast around 1400-1500 to see if that is more manageable.

And I thought my .454 Casull Ruger Super Redhawk with a 9" barrel was "snappy"? Doesn't hold a candle to that brutal recoil. LOL

 

[Certus]

45-70 is one of my favorite cartridges also. Your comment of "from fun to pain" brought back an ugly memory. I have a 45-70 Super 16 barrel for my T/C Contender. With the carbine stock on and a 1-4 Nikon scope, it weighs about 5 1/2lbs. I ran the load I use in my Marlin, 405gr at 1700fps. Calling it "lively" would be an understatement. Drew blood on all 3 rounds I put downrange. Not bad for accuracy, but not worth the beating. Can't imagine shooting it with that load configured as a pistol, lol. Apparently, more than one wrist has been fractured with the trapdoor load at ~1300fps. I plan on trying some 300gr cast around 1400-1500 to see if that is more manageable.

My 1895CB arrived at the dealers today, woo!

I’ve got around 1000 of these 350gr bullets (coated cast) that it’ll be digesting with mild loads. Biggest thing around here is a pig so they don’t need to be hot loaded. Certainly gong to be using them since loaded ammo locally is only the Remington 405gr 1300fps stuff and it’s $94/20. Yes I bought a box yesterday to give me something to shoot when I get it.

 

[1:66 twiste@d]

Well, I have two 45/70’s. One custom bolt action and the newest one a CVA Scout (blued version) that I will pick up in a couple of weeks. One of those will be going with me in August to Limpopo.

It’s interesting to watch the YouTube shows from SA outfitters. I actually watched one yesterday that said the big bores were better for PG.

I won’t be hunting Cape Buffalo on this trip. Zebra, Gemsbok, Blue Wildebeest, Warthog and Impala. But for my future Cape Buffalo and Lion it will be a 404 Jeffrey.

 

[Certus]

Well, I have two 45/70’s. One custom bolt action and the newest one a CVA Scout (blued version) that I will pick up in a couple of weeks. One of those will be going with me in August to Limpopo.

It’s interesting to watch the YouTube shows from SA outfitters. I actually watched one yesterday that said the big bores were better for PG.

I won’t be hunting Cape Buffalo on this trip. Zebra, Gemsbok, Blue Wildebeest, Warthog and Impala. But for my future Cape Buffalo and Lion it will be a 404 Jeffrey.

A fellow on another forum was getting something like 2000fps with 500gr bullets out of a custom bolt .45-70. Loading longer than factory specs as the rifle allowed it.

 

[Huntsmans Bane]

The .45-70 can kill, and kill cleanly--if all goes well. What's said by those here who have hunted extensively in Africa for such as the Cape Buffalo is that if the world turns to garbage, the .45-70 is not enough to stop a charge. Losing an argument with Nyati is a one-time event.

The thing about dangerous game is not whether or not some particular cartridge will kill. The deal is about how long it takes, and what the critter does in its final moments.

 

[mauserhunter]

A fellow on another forum was getting something like 2000fps with 500gr bullets out of a custom bolt .45-70. Loading longer than factory specs as the rifle allowed it.

I was in the 2300s with 400 grain A frames In my Siamese mauser loaded super hot and long, mine was throated to load the 400 A frame most chambers won't at least not long enough. Did shoot some 510gr copper solids one time warm but don't remember there speed. I think a 500 in a 458 is over the .300 sd most seem to recommend for dg.

 

[RayAtkinson]

the 9,3x62 is the equal of 375 H&H, no one can tell the differnnce..The 45-70 is not a African caliber I would even consider, the 45-90 is borderline and not my choice. Of corse a 22 LR will kill about anything, but Id hold my fire and run..

 

[BeeMaa]

the 9,3x62 is the equal of 375 H&H, no one can tell the differnnce..The 45-70 is not a African caliber I would even consider, the 45-90 is borderline and not my choice. Of corse a 22 LR will kill about anything, but Id hold my fire and run..

Anyone have a frozen herring?

RIP Bruce.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

@BeeMaa ... Well played sir. Anyone have any idea what the cost of herring is, versus the cost of factory ammunition?

For some who respond on these threads, I get that it might not be your particular jam, but the facts are it can and will work (and work well) - if the hunter who wants to do it has the support and input of his/her PH, puts in the preparation, and adheres to the limitations that come with it.