45-70 for dangerous game?

[michael458]

Michael458: at least you got a Cat - and with a classic rifle/caliber….that makes that Cat a great story

Thanks Hank...... Hmmm.... I must now be a poet... LOL........ Thank you...... Yeah, there is a little more to that story as well....... I really hated carrying a long gun for Cougar, the others were done with Handguns, easy carry in and out of rough places right...? Well, I loved this gun, nice looking, and the cartridge is classic, although rat caliber..... it is a fun to shoot cartridge no doubt about it..... I was shooting a cast bullet 265 gr Cast Performance with 25/RL 7 for 1571 fps. At 25 yards all wadded in a hole........ Cats, no need to even test further, most likely going to be a matter of feet and not yards...Right? Well I had to climb a damn near cliff to get to this thing, and I am "Sh$T" scarred of heights, I don't like being on the side of anything looking WAYYYYYY Down....... no, not me. Anyway, get up top, and the cat is DOWN on a ledge not 5-6 feet wide about 15 yards or so below us, looking out and up at............

You can't tell it really from this photo, but that is a big big drop over the side, this is that cat looking up at us............

Had I done any sort of traditional shot, the cat would have or probably would have jumped over the edge and would have been a damn mess to find and recover, and not to mention damage. So a Head Shot was decided, and I had at that moment the right tool for it. Honestly, I might have pulled it off with a Handgun, but I would have been far less confident of doing so. I put the bead dead between the eyes, maybe just a tad to the right of the cats head and turned the 265 Lead loose, cat down, end of story, except getting the cat back up to us. Oh No, not me, I ain't climbing down on that, no thanks, no days Like that........ Cat was retrieved by my guide, and down above the cat stuck in the side of the cliff was an incredible old Pot..... complete, no damage, not broken, nothing, quite a treasure find for the boys I was with.......Could have been there hundreds of years, who knows?

So it was a fit and proper cat hunt and for the Legendary Frontiersman........ And just happened to turn out the very best thing I could have had, for that moment in time...........

 

[HankBuck]

Thanks Hank...... Hmmm.... I must now be a poet... LOL........ Thank you...... Yeah, there is a little more to that story as well....... I really hated carrying a long gun for Cougar, the others were done with Handguns, easy carry in and out of rough places right...? Well, I loved this gun, nice looking, and the cartridge is classic, although rat caliber..... it is a fun to shoot cartridge no doubt about it..... I was shooting a cast bullet 265 gr Cast Performance with 25/RL 7 for 1571 fps. At 25 yards all wadded in a hole........ Cats, no need to even test further, most likely going to be a matter of feet and not yards...Right? Well I had to climb a damn near cliff to get to this thing, and I am "Sh$T" scarred of heights, I don't like being on the side of anything looking WAYYYYYY Down....... no, not me. Anyway, get up top, and the cat is DOWN on a ledge not 5-6 feet wide about 15 yards or so below us, looking out and up at............

You can't tell it really from this photo, but that is a big big drop over the side, this is that cat looking up at us............

Had I done any sort of traditional shot, the cat would have or probably would have jumped over the edge and would have been a damn mess to find and recover, and not to mention damage. So a Head Shot was decided, and I had at that moment the right tool for it. Honestly, I might have pulled it off with a Handgun, but I would have been far less confident of doing so. I put the bead dead between the eyes, maybe just a tad to the right of the cats head and turned the 265 Lead loose, cat down, end of story, except getting the cat back up to us. Oh No, not me, I ain't climbing down on that, no thanks, no days Like that........ Cat was retrieved by my guide, and down above the cat stuck in the side of the cliff was an incredible old Pot..... complete, no damage, not broken, nothing, quite a treasure find for the boys I was with.......Could have been there hundreds of years, who knows?

So it was a fit and proper cat hunt and for the Legendary Frontiersman........ And just happened to turn out the very best thing I could have had, for that moment in time...........

Michael458: Great photos and shows some of the circumstances of your hunt. The Cat also looks larger then I thought and guessing 120-130 lbs and young male or large Female? That you took it with open sights and a classic Lever = Trophy. Most get shot out of a tree at 40 feet. I’ve made 3 Cougar Hunts over hounds - 2 in Idaho and one in BC. I passed one a very good Tom so my friend could take it - treed just off the road and my friend (who was so over weight & Out-of-shape) it would be his only chance to ever reach a treed Cat. My other two hunts failed to tree a Cat and I even though we cut fresh tracks daily - they were small or Female with young so I didn’t even want to run the tracks and “be tempted”. My hunts were all in Snow, never tried “dry ground” and concern would be chasing a small cat that we couldn’t judge the track first.

 

[michael458]

@HankBuck not sure how much the cat weighed, but plenty, big pumpkin headed male..........as they used to say.... LOL Females are far more refined, smaller heads.......

That you took it with open sights and a classic Lever

Yep...... I could not have been more pleased with the way it turned out, first outing, and the last as well for the gun....... I keep saying I need to load a few and plink with it a bit, just never get to it..... too many other projects in the works....And I could see a lot better back then as well........

Most get shot out of a tree at 40 feet

or less ......... correct........my other two with handguns were pretty close, in tree.......... All mine were with the Robb boys in Utah.......... Have not seen them in many years now.......

 

[Warbeast]

If you`d lounch it from a 14inch contender barrel

Still buff medicine or better pick the 375 jdj?

 

[yamoon]

I have always had a desire for a 450/400, but no reason to own one as at 80 years I will never hunt Africa. I took a rifle as part of a trade several years ago, it is a 1932 vintage nitro proofed German falling block that has been re-barreled to 6mm Krag wildcat, I have no use for That caliber. The barrel shank is too small to build a 450/400 but it could be re-bored and chambered for 405 Winchester with out any extractor modifications or extractor fitting. I am thinking long throat 1 in 14 twist, 400gr bullet, being a single shot the bullet can be seated out to gain case capacity. Muzzle energy of 4000 would be possible. After I got tired of the recoil, I could hunt Kansas white tail with factory loads, maybe some Oklahoma hogs also. What do you think?
Mike

 

[black tail]

The .45-70 can kill, and kill cleanly--if all goes well. What's said by those here who have hunted extensively in Africa for such as the Cape Buffalo is that if the world turns to garbage, the .45-70 is not enough to stop a charge. Losing an argument with Nyati is a one-time event.

The thing about dangerous game is not whether or not some particular cartridge will kill. The deal is about how long it takes, and what the critter does in its final moments.

 

[HankBuck]

The .45-70 can kill, and kill cleanly--if all goes well. What's said by those here who have hunted extensively in Africa for such as the Cape Buffalo is that if the world turns to garbage, the .45-70 is not enough to stop a charge. Losing an argument with Nyati is a one-time event.

The thing about dangerous game is not whether or not some particular cartridge will kill. The deal is about how long it takes, and what the critter does in its final moments.

Black tail: Well said and although I’ve never faced or even seen a “Charge” (in person) gonna guess that Bullet Placement still trumps all.

 

[Rafiki]

Black tail: Well said and although I’ve never faced or even seen a “Charge” (in person) gonna guess that Bullet Placement still trumps all.

Uh-Huh, IF you make that perfect shot, big "if" there.

 

[HankBuck]

Uh-Huh, IF you make that perfect shot, big "if" there.

Rafiki: I don’t know about “perfect” but certainly GOOD is required. All else being equal - agree Bigger always Better but even a Bazooka - thru the Guts - isn’t gonna be enough….shot Placement will always be the Most important factor

 

[Rafiki]

Rafiki: I don’t know about “perfect” but certainly GOOD is required. All else being equal - agree Bigger always Better but even a Bazooka - thru the Guts - isn’t gonna be enough….shot Placement will always be the Most important factor

Who said it's not, not me; that's not the point. If you read any of these pages everyone has a one shot kill on a cape buffalo. You would think the things were Herefords in a pasture.

 

[HankBuck]

Who said it's not, not me; that's not the point. If you read any of these pages everyone has a one shot kill on a cape buffalo. You would think the things were Herefords in a pasture.

Rafiki: I know that I Never made a one shot kill on a Buffalo and I used a .470 NE (poor shot placement) but my Son used the same gun and did kill his with one shot

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

Who said it's not, not me; that's not the point. If you read any of these pages everyone has a one shot kill on a cape buffalo. You would think the things were Herefords in a pasture.

If that was the takeaway someone had from this thread then I would suggest they hadn’t actually read it all.

My takeaway is that if someone were to take the time to carefully develop a special load with correct bullets and also develop exceptional accuracy with the firearm then, in that particular case, the 45-70 would be an adequate rifle for Cape buffalo.

What is absolutely not supported is someone picking up a marlin at Walmart and a box of core lokts and marching off into the bush.

I would not use a 45-70 and I would not recommend it to others. But that is based on my own lack of skill with the rifle and lack of expertise with precision hand loading. Beyond that I see no reason others shouldn’t pursue it within the bounds of the game laws of the various African nations and the permission/approval of their professional hunters.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

The .45-70 can kill, and kill cleanly--if all goes well. What's said by those here who have hunted extensively in Africa for such as the Cape Buffalo is that if the world turns to garbage, the .45-70 is not enough to stop a charge. Losing an argument with Nyati is a one-time event.

The thing about dangerous game is not whether or not some particular cartridge will kill. The deal is about how long it takes, and what the critter does in its final moments.

No argument with that at all. But...

1. That is why the PH is there, with a stopping sized caliber. And if the PH is good with your choice of a .45-70 prior to the hunt, please do not fall back on how it's putting his life in danger.

2. The world can turn to garbage with any caliber, with a poor shot or a hunter with a situationally addled mind due to the pressure of the situation.

My two buffalo - since you mention how long and final moments - both took about ten(ish) seconds, ran forward another 20ish yards, fell over, and died. I have read stories about buffalo that were hit (possibly poorly) with many shots from larger calibers, and the world did indeed turn pear-shaped for just a bit. It's not the caliber.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

@Rocked and Loaded ... First, thanks man - that was a great response. Second, "What is absolutely not supported is someone picking up a marlin at Walmart and a box of core lokts and marching off into the bush." --> I just about spit out my coffee. Thanks for the morning laugh.

 

[michael458]

Regardless of caliber, cartridge or bullet, always always strive to make that first shot count and do everything in your power to put it where it needs to go. That goes without saying really. But NEVER EVER EVER just sit back and wait for the first shot to do its job? There will always be circumstances that can and will cause that first shot to go astray or not provide the results you need. While you sit back and watch, you might watch your hard earned animal run, walk or get away. Never take that first shot as absolute. Shoot again, then again and again, and if you need to load up again, do so and shoot some more. Shoot until you cannot shoot any longer, animal no longer presents a shot, out of ammo, or the problem is solved, and even if the problem is solved, pay the insurance. Never stand by and watch what happens after the first shot, you opened the dance, now finish it with everything you have. Things are very rarely perfect in the field, expect and prepare for difficulties. Ammo is cheap, and who wants to carry that crap back home anyway, shoot it up.

Also remember, the closer you are, the more you have control, and the better you can get second, third or more shots in....... At 25 yards and in, I own you. At 50 and further, my percentages start to drop at that point, its easier to get behind a tree, bush, or out of sight the further you are..........

Regardless of everything, shoot until you cannot shoot any longer, or your problem is solved, then shoot again............

 

[DB404]

Rick

Please look at the data again.
"45-70 is a 325gr bullet @ 2050 fps and 3032 lbs of energy"
.416 ruger. with a 400 gr bullet @ (2400 fps 5000 ft lbs of energy)

You can look at this through what ever color glasses you chose, however,This is not even close...

Of course it will kill dangerous game. My walking around load in my 1886 45-70 SRC (Browning) when the salmon were running on the Kenai or PWS was a 400 gr bonded core Kodiak over 50.0 gr of Re #7, for 2,050 fps. No pressure signs, accurate enough and held 9 rounds. Another grain of powder put velocity over 2100 fps. Anybody recall the .404 Jeffery British load ballistics??

Many people make the mistake of shooting at dangerous game using the same holds they’ve used for years on deer: behind the shoulder. Wrong! Aim at the shoulder where it joins the spine, or any other piece of skeletal anatomy presenting itself for crippling shot placement.