Who's Trophy is it anyway? Wounded Animals

[Hunter-Habib]

@Hunter-Habib

I guess it would come down to mind set and ethics.

Good PH/Guide, outfitter, outfitter/PH or Guide

An outfitter, outfitter/PH, PH has a client for X number of days. It's the client's last or second to last hunting day. The client wounds his animal. Time is spent looking for the animal to no avail in finding the animal.

The client as we are all aware pays for the wounded animal. Client has to depart, for personal or business whatever reason cannot extend his stay.

The outfitter, PH relay to the client that they will make every effort to recover the client's animal, notify them, etc, etc,.

A day or so later the outfitter notifies the client the animal was recovered. Outfitter doesn't see the need to provide details, unless client ask, on how the animal was recovered.

Since the previous client paid for the wounded animal; Shouldn't the previous client be given the trophy?
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Now allow me to ask community members opinions:

What if the wounded animal is a #1 record book animal.

Who should get credit in claiming the record?

A very good question, Ridge Runner.

Reminds me of the time when I shot both these Axis stags. The one to my right, was taken on my own personal license. The one to the left was wounded in the gut in the afternoon by Brigadier General Mahmudul Hassan but I followed him up & finished him off. The Beat Office officially listed the Shikari of the left side stag as the General since the General's bullet wound wound eventually have proven fatal (albeit after days of agony).

 

[Doug Hamilton]

In Africa & Asia, it goes to whoever drew first blood. I don't necessarily agree with this philosophy but it is what it is.

When another hunter wounds/cripples a game animal, I will kill it if I can to end its suffering and to relieve the other hunter of his anxiety. I do not want to claim it as my own. This is especially true if the other hunter is one of my group. Of course, individual circumstances could change things. Big game vs birds for instance, degree of injury from the first shot, etc.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Oddly enough, an incident in Northern California is what prompted my question. In 1989 I was hunting black tails in the Yolla Bollas. I had already killed my buck so I was along with my friend when a buck came sneaking by. He killed the buck and while we were gutting the buck another guy came along and said it was his as he had wounded it, we looked everywhere and found no wound and the deer was moving normally. A huge argument ensued and I finally found a crease on the buck hind leg just above the hoof where the other hunter hit . When the other hunter saw where he hit it, he relented and helped us get the buck to the horses. Everyone was happy but it could’ve ended so much worse.

I agree. When I talk about who hit the animal first, I'm talking about a serious wound.

 

[Hunt anything]

I agree. When I talk about who hit the animal first, I'm talking about a serious wound.

Agree, the first shooter said when he shot the buck it jumped and kicked making him think he made a good shot. But quickly realized what happened after he saw the evidence.

 

[Safari Dave]

IMO, the hunter who causes the first drop of blood, should tag it, and be responsible for everything that follows.


No good excuse for a bad first shot.


I've made them. I will ante up.

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

It’s all circumstance.

North America with a guide hunting deer. You draw blood, with conclusive evidence, you look until you are unable to find it. Then decide if your hunt is over. This is discretionary between the guide/outfitter and you. A lot of times, and I don’t agreed with this, the guide and hunter hunts another deer, and may successfully kill and tag a deer, and the first is never recovered. I’ve never done this.

Another scenario: 2 groups of separate hunters and guides/outfitters are aware of the same bull elk, one has a tag that allows archery, he arrows the bull and it runs off and the archer can’t get to it, then the second hunter with a muzzleloader is aware of the bulls location and takes the opportunity to kill it (unethical or not, regarding allowing the opportunity for the archery hunter to finish it) and the muzzle loader hunter claims the bull. That bull is now the muzzle loader hunters tagged bull. Recently happened to a guy I know…

Africa, in my experience, you draw blood, you own it and pay for it. Circumstances not withstanding… I’ve been fortunate to only have one experience where I wish I had a shot back that my gut instinct told me not to shoot. It was my first hunt with a young PH, where I shot an immature Kudu on my first trip to SA. I knew I was on the hook for it before I shot. I mentioned to the PH that it looked immature, I hesitated, and after assurances and urging from the PH, I shot and killed it. As soon as we got up to the Kudu I felt overwhelmed with regret and frustration. But, I owned it! I switched PH’s immediately after that incident.

After a lengthy negotiation with the owner and an agreed discount on the immature Kudu, I took another 55”. The immature Kudu is on my wall as a reminder…

I’ve been lucky to have never injured any animal and not recovered it.

 

[HankBuck]

In my experience deer hunting here in North America, it's whoever delivers the killing shot. Guided hunts may differ.

@skydiver386: in the crowded Deer woods of Pennsylvania and especially on Opening Day - these conflicts regularly occur. Game Wardens are sometimes called to resolve these disputes but there is NO Law to abide by and the Wardens hope to let the Hunters work it out. It is usually resolved through conversation, arguments, or a time honored “fist fight”. How heated the argument depends on how Big the Buck is? (It’s easy to give up a spike and keep on hunting….less so a 10 pointer)

 

[skydiver386]

@skydiver386: in the crowded Deer woods of Pennsylvania and especially on Opening Day - these conflicts regularly occur. Game Wardens are sometimes called to resolve these disputes but there is NO Law to abide by and the Wardens hope to let the Hunters work it out. It is usually resolved through conversation, arguments, or a time honored “fist fight”. How heated the argument depends on how Big the Buck is? (It’s easy to give up a spike and keep on hunting….less so a 10 pointer)

There is Private land, where things are usually between friends and family, and Public Land, where things can get nasty when shot rains down on another mans duck blind, or a wounded buck doesn't drop at the shot. I only hunt Public land during slower seasons, and refuse to hunt crowded areas for this exact reason.

 

[Ridge Runner]

@skydiver386: in the crowded Deer woods of Pennsylvania and especially on Opening Day - these conflicts regularly occur. Game Wardens are sometimes called to resolve these disputes but there is NO Law to abide by and the Wardens hope to let the Hunters work it out. It is usually resolved through conversation, arguments, or a time honored “fist fight”. How heated the argument depends on how Big the Buck is? (It’s easy to give up a spike and keep on hunting….less so a 10 pointer)

+1......Hunting public land.

[Earlier during the archery season in this same area I seen 2 nice bucks with no opportunity for a shot on either buck.]

I shot a spike during muzzle loading season. Slightly over a 1/2 mile or so from my vehicle.

Another hunter over the hill from where I shot, the hunter claimed he saw 2 deer coming toward him was sure they were both does and declared he shot a doe.

(Very short version) After passing by the deer 8 times and I started down the hill he suddenly "found" the deer; declared "why it's a buck" and went to gutting it.

His boat was about 15 yards away and being a spike I let him have yet.

Now, could I have made a fuss. Yes. Because he was shooting a 45 or 50 cal and I was shooting a 10 bore loaded with a 1 ounce, hollow base, 12 gauge slug, patched with the toe end of a thick cotton sock as a patch.

Later that day, after having given up the spike. I found outhird muzzle loading hunter killed both bucks that morning. One was a seven pointer and the other was a nine pointer.

 

[HankBuck]

+1......Hunting public land.

[Earlier during the archery season in this same area I seen 2 nice bucks with no opportunity for a shot on either buck.]

I shot a spike during muzzle loading season. Slightly over a 1/2 mile or so from my vehicle.

Another hunter over the hill from where I shot, the hunter claimed he saw 2 deer coming toward him was sure they were both does and declared he shot a doe.

(Very short version) After passing by the deer 8 times and I started down the hill he suddenly "found" the deer; declared "why it's a buck" and went to gutting it.

His boat was about 15 yards away and being a spike I let him have yet.

Now, could I have made a fuss. Yes. Because he was shooting a 45 or 50 cal and I was shooting a 10 bore loaded with a 1 ounce, hollow base, 12 gauge slug, patched with the toe end of a thick cotton sock as a patch.

Later that day, after having given up the spike. I found outhird muzzle loading hunter killed both bucks that morning. One was a seven pointer and the other was a nine pointer.

@Ridge Runner - we always hunted Deer on Public Land in PA during the 1970s-1980s. A couple of the “old” guys I hunted with told me that if I downed a deer to immediately “cut off the tail” and hold on to it. They thought that if another hunter tried to TAKE your deer or dragged-it-off when you went to get you friends or truck - the “tail” would later help you prove it was YOUR Deer to a Game Warden. I never tried it or saw an instance of that technique being used - but I thought it was interesting logic. A mature man with 1/2 a brain would say “it ain’t worth fighting over a Deer” but I remember how happy I was when I killed my 1st Buck - it was Opening Day in PA and I was 26 - got a Spike, still ranks as the most exciting moment of my hunting Life. Had anyone tried to take that Buck from me then - there would’ve been a real brawl.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I remember one protracted discussion with another hunter over who would take the goose home. They dropped one that glided to my end of the field and I missed seeing the second bird in a triple fall when I was dodging the third as it almost fell on me. My dog brought in their bird (banded) and I set it aside. After geese stopped flying I see one of the guys walking out in the field with his young Lab. I take the goose to him. But he insists he's looking for my goose which now must be in my hand. While we were debating, my Lab got snarky with his young dog being too close to her bird. The guy kicked her, grabbed the goose and stomped off swearing. I was embarrassed but not upset. We protect our dogs. After bagging my decoys I noticed my other Lab standing out in the field looking at something. "Pearl, go see what Opal is up to." She ran out and picked up the missing goose. Opal was waiting for Pearl to come take care of "her" bird. Curiously, when in Montana hunting pheasants their roles reversed. I should add after that guy gave Pearl the boot she never again snapped at the dogs over geese. It really shocked her that a stranger would do that. Me giving her shit about it never had the desired effect.

 

[Hunt anything]

Good story @Ontario Hunter , on a lighter note. If a stranger would have kicked my first chessie they would have come back with half a leg. He was one surly old SOB.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Good story @Ontario Hunter , on a lighter note. If a stranger would have kicked my first chessie they would have come back with half a leg. He was one surly old SOB.

I'm just thankful he only kicked her. It could have been much worse ... and with justification. I will say only one dog ever bit me. Not mine. And it paid for it in blood. I once had a Lab tear up a drunk neighbor who walked into the house uninvited at 3:00 a.m. But Sophie was always a bit too protective for my liking. Took some work to get her sorted out.

 

[Hunt anything]

I'm just thankful he only kicked her. It could have been much worse ... and with justification. I will say only one dog ever bit me. Not mine. And it paid for it in blood. I once had a Lab tear up a drunk neighbor who walked into the house uninvited at 3:00 a.m. But Sophie was always a bit too protective for my liking. Took some work to get her sorted out.

Understand, Tug was a big baby UNTIL a stranger got too close to his bird, his truck or his boat. Around family and friends he was a totally different dog.

 

[HankBuck]

Good story @Ontario Hunter , on a lighter note. If a stranger would have kicked my first chessie they would have come back with half a leg. He was one surly old SOB.

@Hunt anything - I’ve Never seen a Hunter “kick or hit” another Hunter’s dog…that would be a risky move and I wouldn’t be surprised if an incident like that ended up in a fist fight.

 

[Hunt anything]

@Hunt anything - I’ve Never seen a Hunter “kick or hit” another Hunter’s dog…that would be a risky move and I wouldn’t be surprised if an incident like that ended up in a fist fight.

I believe you are right, I haven’t seen it either. I did have another hunter catch and tie up my second chessie Brandt. I didn’t realize another group had set up on a pot hole in some woods behind me and I sent him to get a duck that sailed on us. He never came back and I kept blowing my whistle and after about 20 minutes I hear a guy yelling to stop blowing that f$@&ng whistle. I went to see what was going on and there sat Brandt tied to a tree with a drake mallard in his mouth. I asked what the hell he was doing and that if my dog wasn’t tied to a tree I never would’ve had to blow the f$@&ng whistle. It was pretty tense but worked out okay.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Hunt anything - I’ve Never seen a Hunter “kick or hit” another Hunter’s dog…that would be a risky move and I wouldn’t be surprised if an incident like that ended up in a fist fight.

Yeah, when that guy's dog tears into yours you will just stand there and say "Oh please, poochy, stop that." Some strange dog rips into my dog/kid, he would be lucky to only get the boot, especially if I'm standing there with a gun in my hands. I considered myself lucky that she just got kicked. Not sure I wouldn't have done worse. We don't have time to think in those situations. Thankful his reactions were what they were. Only a fool would have attempted to escalate the situation. But hey HankBuck, if the shoe fits ...

A few years back I got roped into filling a vacancy on my brother's boss's outfitted goose hunt to SK. I brought my two Labs and Fr Britt as we were already in Montana bird hunting. The other guy in the party showed up with a useless two year-old Chesapeak that had a very unpredictable disposition. I knew something was wrong when it jumped out of the truck tied to a logging chain. I had to leave my dogs in the vehicle almost the entire trip. A couple of times I needed to get Opal out to make water retrieves (his dog was less than spotty retreiver). I told him, "You better tie that dog up." He said it would be okay. "Well, if it turns out not 'okay' you will have a dead dog to take home." He put it back in his truck. Then that night he ties the damn thing up right outside the apartment door so my dogs can't get out to do their business. Hell, I was nervous walking past that grumpy mutt. "Get your head out of your ass or get down the road with that gawdam dog." Fortunately, our useless outfitter finally stepped in. I learned the following year the dog disappeared one night chasing deer and never returned. One of the neighbors doubtless fixed the problem.

 

[Hunt anything]

One thing about my chessies was they worked extremely well with other dogs. Back in those days I probably hunted 50-60 days a year maybe half the time with other dogs and we never had a problem. Case in point would be a 1995 article in Ducks Unlimited magazine, “A Bayou Reunion” by Doug Lee.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

One thing about my chessies was they worked extremely well with other dogs. Back in those days I probably hunted 50-60 days a year maybe half the time with other dogs and we never had a problem. Case in point would be a 1995 article in Ducks Unlimited magazine, “A Bayou Reunion” by Doug Lee.

Pearl was a sweet dog but she could get grumpy with other dogs around her dead geese. Even with her "sisters" Opal and Coral. But only snap and snarl. She didn't "tear into" that guy's dog, but he didn't know what to expect. Caught us both by surprise. I should have known better and left her at the fence line. Curious thing is Pearl would let my other Lab Opal assist with field retrieves. Opal could hang onto the head or a wing while Pearl brought the big honker in. But if Opal found the honker first, she would stand over or catch it till Pearl arrived. Then she turned it over to the older dog. Somewhere I have a photo of the tandem retrieve. But when the goose went in the pile, then Pearl guarded them. Other dogs better stay away. Uplands she didn't care. That was Opal's game. Unless ... a rooster fell on water. They would both have at those. After Pearl died, Opal stepped up automatically to retrieve geese. Dogs can be funny.

 

[HankBuck]

I believe you are right, I haven’t seen it either. I did have another hunter catch and tie up my second chessie Brandt. I didn’t realize another group had set up on a pot hole in some woods behind me and I sent him to get a duck that sailed on us. He never came back and I kept blowing my whistle and after about 20 minutes I hear a guy yelling to stop blowing that f$@&ng whistle. I went to see what was going on and there sat Brandt tied to a tree with a drake mallard in his mouth. I asked what the hell he was doing and that if my dog wasn’t tied to a tree I never would’ve had to blow the f$@&ng whistle. It was pretty tense but worked out okay.

@Hunt anything - you must have some very good Self Control and handled that situation well. I can’t think of any reason for someone to tie up your retriever as you described and especially when they could hear you “whistling” for your dog.