R8 3 accidental discharges, human error or?

[mark-hunter]

Reading red leg posts, and one day posts, and tobys postsI am tempted to buy r8.
Now the only reason stopping me to this decision, I already have all the calibers that I need, so will need carefully to rethink about what next caliber will I need and for what purpose. Althoug I dont have anything in 6.5 mm class, nor in 300 mag class.

I have some experinece with merkel helix straight pull action, of classic look, and traditional type of magazine in front of trigger group. tellescopic type of straight pull bolt. That one I like, belongs to the friend of mine. But i am still not in immediate need to go for next rifle, and additional caliber. I try not to be "collector", i just keep it as practical rifle owner, just to have what is needed. I just told my friend with merkel if he puts merkel to sale, to offer me first, then I will reconsider. (topped up with swaro z8)

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I have never hunted in Africa with a Blaser R-8 (till now, anyway). Although I have hunted red stag, roe deer & wild boar with quite a few of them in Europe (mostly preferring the .30-06 Springfield or .300 Winchester Magnum chamberings if rental rifles in this caliber can be sourced).

No cases (so far, fortunately) of the rifles discharging on their own. But Rakhi (my son) did experience an accidental discharge with one (even though he's extremely well educated on firearms handling & safety procedures).

Most accidental discharges with this platform of rifle occurs while setting the cocking mechanism . It does take a little getting used to.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I have learned quite a lot about R8s from this thread. At the moment I am on my way from zim to RSA for medical reasons. If I have a chance I will swing by Safari Outdoors and handle a R8 and try and get a feel and go through the cocking and decocking of a R8.

AD or ND either one equal a FD

Sadly to say there are people in this world that care nothing about the hunt. They only care that they have more trophies than their friends, or adversaries.

Next there are people who have more money and power at home they are very use to having their own way.

Next you have the poor freelance PH who wants to make everybody happy.

I was very ill at the time and could not be involved in anyway. If I would have known certain facts the hunt would have never started. Would we have lost money yes, would we have been sued probably. Could I have held my head high knowing we did the correct thing, yes.

 

[BeeMaa]

@Tokoloshe Safaris - You sound like someone I would very much enjoy hunting with. Next time I’m able to make it to SCI or DSC, we will have to talk. Hope you are feeling better. Cheers.

 

[mark-hunter]

Next you have the poor freelance PH who wants to make everybody happy.

And we have a poor clients with life long dream to hunt Africa and African DG.
Many of my friends tell me, I would like to go, but I cannot afford.
This is not directly related to this particular topic, but we live in diverse and colorful world, which is not always just.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

A quick video of the Blaser R8 cocking device...

Good video, thanks for making it. It seems to me there's a pretty decent probability that if the handler of the firearm has his finger near the trigger and applies pressure in the split second following cocking of the rifle, it'll go bang. This again as stated in my mind is a violation of one of the primary rules of gun safety.

Having said that, I can see an opportunity for improvement of the design. The three position safety already has it. And that's an ability to open the bolt or slide as it may be called on the Blaser with the rifle still in a safe mode. Either because you open the bolt with the firing pin not cocked, or with it cocked but something to block the trigger.

Now before any R8 owners feel I've insulted your rifle, there's no intent on my part to do so. I'm only suggesting that there is possibly a way to make the rifle that much more idiot proof.

The reason I like my 3 position safety is for just this reason. In the mid position I can cycle the bolt to empty the rifle which I prefer. I hate opening the bottom plate and dumping the rounds.

Could the Blaser add a mechanical feature to unlock the bolt while maintaining the firing pin in an uncocked position?

 

[Bert the Turtle]

It already has that feature: when the rifle is uncocked, simply push the cocking piece/safety a little bit forward. That unlocks the bolt before putting any pressure on the spring.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

It already has that feature: when the rifle is uncocked, simply push the cocking piece/safety a little bit forward. That unlocks the bolt before putting any pressure on the spring.

My bad then. I did not get that from the video. So there's something of a "half-cocked" position then it seems.

 

[fourfive8]

Seems like a pattern??? I too will stay with Win 70 style 3 position safety and original style trigger for my hunting rifles. Also points to throwing money at a trendy product to have a trendy product while skipping the necessary time and hard work training, practice to develop the skill required. Also may demo one of the reasons I refuse to set my hunting triggers less that about 3-4 lbs. And reflects why I only carried a striker fired Glock… no cock and lock and no safety lever(s)

 

[BeeMaa]

My bad then. I did not get that from the video. So there's something of a "half-cocked" position then it seems.

No, not a half cocked position. Watch the video again and I show you at the 0:22 point how to slightly push the decocker forward enough to release the bolt.

It subtle, but it’s there. Makes a whole lot more sense when you have one in your hands.

 

[Red Leg]

Seems like a pattern??? I too will stay with Win 70 style 3 position safety and original style trigger for my hunting rifles. Also points to throwing money at a trendy product to have a trendy product while skipping the necessary time and hard work training, practice and skill required. Also may demo one of the reasons I refuse to set my hunting triggers less that about 3-4 lbs. And reflects why I only carried a striker fired Glock… no cock and lock and no safety lever(s)

Then again, I wouldn't make too many generalized assumptions about the firearms experience of Blaser owners.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

No, not a half cocked position. Watch the video again and I show you at the 0:22 point how to slightly push the decocker forward enough to release the bolt.

It subtle, but it’s there. Makes a whole lot more sense when you have one in your hands.

As does everything with an R8. Which is why the vast majority of criticisms of the rifle come from people who have never handled one.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Curious. Does the R8 snap over on rounds dropped in an empty chamber?

The two-position aftermarket Buhler style safety on my Springfield does not allow the bolt to be opened or closed with safety engaged. However, because it is controlled feed it's not necessary to close the bolt all the way to eject shells when unloading the rifle. Hence, the reason why late model 03A3 had stamped bottom metal with no hinged floorplate. A hinged floorplate is not necessary to safely unload the gun. Cost more to machine and required more time to produce, both undesirable during wartime production. Paul Mauser's hinged floorplate design is awkward to operate, more so than necessary, which leads me to conclude he wanted it to be an emergency option, not for use when routinely emptying the magazine. Dumping a magazine full rounds on the ground of a muddy WWI trench was definitely not desirable. Though we all think of Springfield and Mauser 98 design as cocking on opening, if you look closely you'll see that the cocking piece is not FULLY cocked until the bolt is closed. Striker is not released from lock until then. Even if someone could somehow have their finger on the trigger when loading a round, it is almost impossible to make the gun fire until after the bolt is closed. I can do it to release the firing pin for storage, but it's a bit of a trick.

I can't believe Remington got away with producing the defective Model 700 design for decades. Requiring a gun to be off safe and bolt fully closed just to unload the gun is a disaster waiting to happen. It's bad enough that it was necessary to get the unfired round out of the chamber, but then having to do it for the rest of the rounds in the magazine? A drop floorplate was little more than an optional band-aid solution. Again, most shooters will prefer to eject rounds into their hand rather than opening the floorplate and picking shells up from the mud or snow.

Paul Mauser was certainly a genius. Others have tried to fiddle with new fangled repeating rifle concepts (e.g. John Browning), but as confirmed in this thread, few if any have bested his design.

 

[Red Leg]

Curious. Does the R8 snap over on rounds dropped in an empty chamber?

The two-position aftermarket Buhler style safety on my Springfield does not allow the bolt to be opened or closed with safety engaged. However, because it is controlled feed it's not necessary to close the bolt all the way to eject shells when unloading the rifle. Hence, the reason why late model 03A3 had stamped bottom metal with no hinged floorplate. A hinged floorplate is not necessary to safely unload the gun. Cost more to machine and required more time to produce, both undesirable during wartime production. Paul Mauser's hinged floorplate design is awkward to operate, more so than necessary, which leads me to conclude he wanted it to be an emergency option, not for use when routinely emptying the magazine. Dumping a magazine full rounds on the ground of a muddy WWI trench was definitely not desirable. Though we all think of Springfield and Mauser 98 design as cocking on opening, if you look closely you'll see that the cocking piece is not FULLY cocked until the bolt is closed. Striker is not released from lock until then. Even if someone could somehow have their finger on the trigger when loading a round, it is almost impossible to make the gun fire until after the bolt is closed. I can do it to release the firing pin for storage, but it's a bit of a trick.

I can't believe Remington got away with producing the defective Model 700 design for decades. Requiring a gun to be off safe and bolt fully closed just to unload the gun is a disaster waiting to happen. It's bad enough that it was necessary to get the unfired round out of the chamber, but then having to do it for the rest of the rounds in the magazine? A drop floorplate was little more than an optional band-aid solution. Again, most shooters will prefer to eject rounds into their hand rather than opening the floorplate and picking shells up from the mud or snow.

Paul Mauser was certainly a genius. Others have tried to fiddle with new fangled repeating rifle concepts (e.g. John Browning), but as confirmed in this thread, few if any have bested his design.

The R8 can load or eject a round without being cocked at all. One simply applies light downward/forward pressure on the cocking slide and the bolt can be worked freely. Simply look at @BeeMaa and @Bert the Turtle 's posts above.

 

[bowjijohn]

It is a system

It is a very good system

It is a rather expensive system, but, once you have put that behind you, it is an engineering system different from, but of the quality of Paul Mauser’s bolt action

I’ve seen several NDs with every type of action

They are almost always down to inexperience, stress, pressure and over confidence

The Blaser is a brilliant unit

It treads a fine line between over engineering and reliability in the field

It passes muster in terms of reliability in spades

It cannot engineer out the occasional idiotic action, the fool and the egotistical tosser

The errors I’ve made were in the early days with the R8

No different to the students I get every single day on the range - including today - with the Cz 452 in .22LR

The mistakes they would have made without my intervention make my skin crawl

(I’d like a dime for every time I’ve said ‘finger off trigger)

I’d take the r8 into any scenario in any land against any target

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

For the below I am 99% certain the Blaser R8 trigger group is functionally the same as my S-2 double rifle.

I tried to replicate an negligent discharge in my Blaser S-2 and Kreighoff Classic doubles. Both have external cocking.

Both trigger groups functioned the same for this experiment. Whenever pressure was applied to a trigger, the corresponding sear would disengage allowing the hammer to strike the firing pin.

If I grabbed a trigger when starting to cock, that trigger would not engage the sear at all. No danger would result except having an unknown uncocked hammer. One really would not realize the hammer had not cocked!

If however a trigger were pulled during the cocking cycle, the sear would be released allowing the hammer to strike a firing pin.

Even touching a trigger halfway though cocking would release the sear. The triggers on both guns seemed as they should having lighter trigger pulls when the hammer was only partially cocked.

The safe procedure is to FIRMLY grasp the pistol grip with one's fingers as the thumb pushes the cocking slide.

 

[IvW]

Reminds me of an outfitter I hunted for ex. RLI who had the very unsafe manner of carrying his 505 GIBBS one up and then pulling the trigger while lowering the bolt on the chambered round......
When I explained to him one night around the camp fire how dangerous this was and that if he dropped the rifle or bumped it hard on the butt that the rifle would fire....he gave me a lot of lip and stormed off mumbling about inexperienced xy and z's to his bungalow returned with his 505 and a live round.....chambered it and lowered the firing pin on the round and as I tried to stop him he proceeded to bump the butt on the ground.....the un expected discharge of the cartridge recoil and noise and dust as he lost control off the rifle and it fell on the ground was priceless.....thankfully the 525 grains of copper and lead went skywards.....rifle was picked up and Mr. RLI departed to not return for dinner..... I was not spoken to for the next 3 days......

 

[IvW]

So 99.9% of the time it is operator error not equipment failure.....

 

[bowjijohn]

Eased spring on empty chamber

Bolt closed with left hand and finger of right hand on trigger to ease the spring

How many times has that been drilled into us ?

Mr RLI should hang his head in shame …

 

[Letzhunt]

I recall a time in a duck blind when a friend of my father's was "easing off the safety" and BOOM!
cause: human error. condition: top tang safety on a Mossberg shotgun that was stiff/frozen....need more push...the instinct is to use leverage by placing pressure in the opposite direction....in this case the trigger. I won't own a gun with a top tang safety just for that reason.....lesson learned by another's mistake. He was in his 60's and I was 14 at the time. I realize not a tang safety but on the R8 but the same motion nonetheless.