R8 3 accidental discharges, human error or?

[mark-hunter]

he clients were from Eastern Europe and not the best with gun safety from what he told me.

Eastern Europe... We had a case recently when a client in eastern European country had no chance to test and zero the rental rifle.

I made few comments afterwards in that thread that in my country is not common to test the rifle before the hunt (also east europe), so most probably in some countries, this problem is existing, hunters not been sufficiently skilled.
I cannot speak for all countries in general, but I am mentioning as a serious possibility. This issue exists here and there for certain.

Eastern European countries do not have gun culture comparable to united states, and many citizens dont have option to train or test rifles periodically, some time no access to the range in vicinity.

Western European countries neither have similar gun culture comparable to US, but generally speaking, with Austrians, Germans, Norwegians, Swedes etc .. that I have seen hunting as a visiting guests in my area, there is no issue. With their system of certification of hunters, tradition etc... they have achieved high level of safety.
Checz citizens, are very special positive case in eastern europe. Very much technically oriented, having numerous gun ranges, and they implemented in their constitution an article, that comes as close to 2/a as can be within EU legislative, for the right to self defense, and easy issuing of ccw.
Czechs are usually well trained.

At my place on municipal gun range, I rarely see hunters training or zeroing the rifle. The gun culture and safety is mostly kept and grown within sport shooting (non hunting) community, and it is engraved in the genes of IPSC shooters. As I belong to both communities of hunters and sport shooters, I can see the difference between the two groups.
Also, as I have written elsewhere on the forum we have statistically zero gun accidents in sport shooting community, and number of accident per year, in hunting community. Another indication.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

All of my M70's have a three position safety. One reason I prefer them is it basically forces me to use my right hand to operate them and in so doing I naturally move that hand away from the trigger. I guess I could train myself to use my left hand, but then what's the point?

Whatever the case, having your finger on the trigger when not ready to shoot is violating one of the cardinal rules of gun safety.

To operate the Model 70 style safety with left hand while keeping my right hand on the trigger would require holding the fore end with my foot. That requires opposing big toes. If I was an ape I'd probably be too busy running for president to be doing any hunting.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

To operate the Model 70 style safety with left hand while keeping my right hand on the trigger would require holding the fore end with my foot.

Or have the fore end resting on shooting sticks.

 

[Red Leg]

I suppose I am old school, but I really would encourage the critics who have wrapped up their analysis of the "problems" with the R8 really should - you know - actually use and fire one a bit before drawing too many conclusions?

Some things I have observed by owning and firing the Blaser R8.

The trigger pull is superb. If it is too light for someone, don't buy it. All of my other rifles except doubles are tuned to similar 2-3 lb pulls. This one came perfect from the factory.

The cocking slide can be easily engaged and released without touching the trigger or having a finger inside the trigger guard. If for some physical reason one can't, then one should not own a R8 or he or she should have a TTP like @SFRanger7GP and his spouse.

The cocking mechanism is inherently far safer than any other safing mechanism. Drop it, drag it, throw it, snag it - The rifle simply can not fire when decocked (duh). Additionally, the red ready tab is very visible to both the shooter and his PH or guide when the rifle is cocked.

The rifle feeds perfectly, returns to zero whenever a scope is reattached or a barrel and scope are fitted to the stock.

The only rifle that is equally transportable is a double or very expensive purpose built takedown like my Westley Richards .318. None of them will have the utility of a R8.

I would again note my view is based purely on extensive experience with both the Blaser R8 and a host of other rifles with different actions and safeties. And none of this means I despise other actions - my last safari was conducted with a Highland Stalker in .275. My last whitetail was taken with my Baily Bradshaw 7x65R. But my most perfectly designed rifle is the Blaser R8.

 

[BeeMaa]

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I suppose I am old school, but I really would encourage the critics who have wrapped up their analysis of the "problems" with the R8 really should - you know - actually use and fire one a bit before drawing too many conclusions?

Some things I have observed by owning and firing Blaser R8.

The trigger pull is superb. If it is too light for someone, don't buy it. All of my other rifles except doubles are tuned to similar 2-3 lb pulls. This one came perfect from the factory.

The cocking slide can be easily engaged and released without touching the trigger or having a finger inside the trigger guard. If for some physical reason one can't, then one should not own a R8 or he or she should have a TTP like @SFRanger7GP and his spouse.

The cocking mechanism is inherently far safer than any other safing mechanism. Drop it, drag it, throw it, snag it - The rifle simply can not fire when decocked (duh). Additionally, the red ready tab is very visible to both the shooter and his PH or guide when the rifle is cocked.

The rifle feeds perfectly, returns to zero whenever a scope is reattached or a barrel and scope are fitted to the stock.

The only rifle that is equally transportable is a double or very expensive purpose built takedown like my Westley Richards .318. None of them will have the utility of a R8.

I would again note my view is based purely on extensive experience with both the Blaser R8 and a host of other rifles with different actions and safeties.

My Springfield and Mauser are just as super safe ... when carried with an empty chamber. Dragged, kicked, snagged, whatever ... they cannot fire. To make them shoot does require cocking and loading which is a two handed affair. No chance of accidental discharge due to errant trigger finger. For final stalk, my gun MAY be carried with a round in the chamber. A quick glance from PH can determine if 3-position safety is engaged or not (Springfield not so much as it presently has 2-position Mauser style wing safety hidden on left side of the receiver behind the scope).

I would be much more comfortable guiding someone I didn't know who was shooting a 3-position Winchester or Mauser style safety than the R8 or Remington 700 configuration. No matter the configuration, clients should carry the guns unloaded till the PH puts them on the sticks. Then cock/load up with two hands.

I'm sure the R8 design has a lot going for it re portability, etc but this is a safety issue that is obviously a very real threat. A safety that is not real easy to disengage is not necessarily a bad thing. Ask me how I know!

 

[Jfet]

Jfet, What you wrote sounds makes a lot of sense. I doubt his rifle will see a gunsmith. If he perceives his unintentional discharges are costing him trophies. He will just buy another.

My issue was not fixed by a gunsmith. I had to practice proper thumb placement for cocking and decocking. Every time the rifle comes out I go through 10 reps of practicing cocking and decocking before any rounds are loading and any shots are taken. Remember, I am an old Texas high school football coach and success on the game field is in the number of proper reps on the practice field.

 

[BeeMaa]

Just got home and grabbed the Blaser R8, slid in a 375H&H snap cap and closed the chamber. I put my finger on the trigger and pushed the cocking device forward...no surprise, the firing pin hit the snap cap. If it were a live cartridge, I'm positive it would have shot it. The geometry and mechanics of my hand being able to do this is awkward, but it is possible.

So it must be a design flaw on the part of Blaser right? IMO no, not even close. When my wife gets home I'll ask her to make a video of me doing this to show (those that don't own a R8) what exactly is going on to make this happen.

But it did get me thinking. What about other rifle and shotguns? Would they go bang?

I looked into my safe and saw three different shotguns to test it out on. Blaser F3, Beretta 1301 and Benelli SBE3. I tried the same procedure, loaded a snap cap, applied trigger pressure and then shut the safety off. All would have gone bang. Still not a surprise.

I don't (currently) own another rifle system other than the Blaser R8. I've also never tested this on ANYTHING prior to today, because why the hell would I? I'd expect that if pressure is applied to a trigger and the safety is shut off...it would go bang...regardless of the firing system being used.

I encourage anyone who would like to try this (with snap caps of course) on their handguns, shotguns, pistols and maybe even a crossbow...to do so and report back. I'd be interested in finding a firing system that didn't go bang in these conditions.

 

[Daggaboy375]

This is what happens with my R8.

1. Rifle on safe.

2. Index finger on trigger applying constant pressure.

3. Reach up with thumb to cock and take safety off.

4. Gun will not fire. The gun is not cocked and to reset the trigger you have to recock.

It appears that any slight pressure on the trigger does not allow the R8 to cock.
It takes a little more thumb ummph to get the safety on while you have any pressure on the trigger. It seems that any trigger pressure disconnects the cocking mechanism. I'm using the term cock because my understanding is that the "safety" is used to cock and decock, that IS the safety.

My theory is that if you cock/off safe an R8 and pull the trigger the gun fires. This is the only way my rifles will fire.

I tried this on two Professionals loaded with primed brass.

I call Operator Error. Keep your booger picker off the switch.

DB

 

[mark-hunter]

Interesting subject.
Being a legal gun owner for years, it would never come to my mind to try dry firing (or testing) by disengaging the safety and pressing the trigger with dummy round, simultaneously.
I will try this soon with few different rifle platforms on hand, will let you know of any surprising results, however I expect "bang".

 

[Sideshow]

Some very interesting reading here.
My 2 cents (I don't own or have shot an R8)
My observation of the video that Toby made, I noticed, that as he pushes the safety forward you can see his finger on the far-side near the trigger, through the trigger guard.
Also it in a sled. So not really a field test as such.
Please don't take this the wrong way it just an observation and not a criticism.
The rifle is very popular here. If I wasn't such a traditionalist I'd defiantly look at buying one imo.

 

[WAB]

I suppose I am old school, but I really would encourage the critics who have wrapped up their analysis of the "problems" with the R8 really should - you know - actually use and fire one a bit before drawing too many conclusions?

Some things I have observed by owning and firing the Blaser R8.

The trigger pull is superb. If it is too light for someone, don't buy it. All of my other rifles except doubles are tuned to similar 2-3 lb pulls. This one came perfect from the factory.

The cocking slide can be easily engaged and released without touching the trigger or having a finger inside the trigger guard. If for some physical reason one can't, then one should not own a R8 or he or she should have a TTP like @SFRanger7GP and his spouse.

The cocking mechanism is inherently far safer than any other safing mechanism. Drop it, drag it, throw it, snag it - The rifle simply can not fire when decocked (duh). Additionally, the red ready tab is very visible to both the shooter and his PH or guide when the rifle is cocked.

The rifle feeds perfectly, returns to zero whenever a scope is reattached or a barrel and scope are fitted to the stock.

The only rifle that is equally transportable is a double or very expensive purpose built takedown like my Westley Richards .318. None of them will have the utility of a R8.

I would again note my view is based purely on extensive experience with both the Blaser R8 and a host of other rifles with different actions and safeties. And none of this means I despise other actions - my last safari was conducted with a Highland Stalker in .275. My last whitetail was taken with my Baily Bradshaw 7x65R. But my most perfectly designed rifle is the Blaser R8.

I am a good example in support of your point. On my recent trip to Romania I used an R8 for the first time. In familiarizing myself with the weapon it took a bit to master the safety due to wrist issues. I recognized the tendency to reach for the trigger guard for leverage and ensured that I had a technique that avoided this. Once I had it mastered, I had no issues. It is reassuring to know that the spring is not under compression until the weapon is off safe. As an engineer, I appreciate the added safety this provides over other bolt action designs.

The trigger is excellent, the engineering superb. As with any weapon, if you are unwilling or I unable
To understand it’s safe operation, you should not touch it. The R8 is inherently safer than my pet M-70’s and ‘98’s. I think I ‘need’ one!

 

[Daggaboy375]

Just got home and grabbed the Blaser R8, slid in a 375H&H snap cap and closed the chamber. I put my finger on the trigger and pushed the cocking device forward...no surprise, the firing pin hit the snap cap. If it were a live cartridge, I'm positive it would have shot it. The geometry and mechanics of my hand being able to do this is awkward, but it is possible.

So it must be a design flaw on the part of Blaser right? IMO no, not even close. When my wife gets home I'll ask her to make a video of me doing this to show (those that don't own a R8) what exactly is going on to make this happen.

But it did get me thinking. What about other rifle and shotguns? Would they go bang?

I looked into my safe and saw three different shotguns to test it out on. Blaser F3, Beretta 1301 and Benelli SBE3. I tried the same procedure, loaded a snap cap, applied trigger pressure and then shut the safety off. All would have gone bang. Still not a surprise.

I don't (currently) own another rifle system other than the Blaser R8. I've also never tested this on ANYTHING prior to today, because why the hell would I? I'd expect that if pressure is applied to a trigger and the safety is shut off...it would go bang...regardless of the firing system being used.

I encourage anyone who would like to try this (with snap caps of course) on their handguns, shotguns, pistols and maybe even a crossbow...to do so and report back. I'd be interested in finding a firing system that didn't go bang in these conditions.

Are you applying constant pressure to the trigger? Are you sure that the forward motion of the safety is not causing your finger to make contact with the trigger a microsecond after the gun is off safe to cause it to fire?

Respectfully,

DB

 

[Nhoro]

Perhaps, but with a Mauser outfitted with original 3-position striker safety, it's pretty much impossible to have one's finger on trigger when working the safety. Requires using both thumb and trigger finger to disengage the safety. I have absolutely no interest in owning an R8. Too gimmicky and too expensive.

Very true, almost impossible with a mauser flag safety. i have seen two nd with a cz 550 however. The safety must be pushed forward and the natural result is the index finger pulls back. Try it youself- thumb moves forward and trigger finger back. So if you have your finger on the trigger- bang.Same thing is easy with the blaser. If your finger is on the trigger, you do it without thinking. However, i cannot see any mechanical block of the firing pin in their literature so it may be possible that the trigger doesnt engage fully or the cocking piece is released early and the gun goes bang. Maybe some owners can try to release the cocking piece part way and let us know ? I would say it was trigger pulled diring cocking.

 

[Daggaboy375]

I just checked my primed brass that I used.

It does appear that the firing pin does touch the primer. No spring force just gravity.

Fired left, Off safe right.

DB

 

[Sideshow]

Some very interesting reading here.
My 2 cents (I don't own or have shot an R8)
My observation of the video that Toby made, I noticed, that as he pushes the safety forward you can see his finger on the far-side near the trigger, through the trigger guard.
Also it in a sled. So not really a field test as such.
Please don't take this the wrong way it just an observation and not a criticism.
The rifle is very popular here. If I wasn't such a traditionalist I'd defiantly look at buying one imo.

Looked at the video by Toby again on the computer and not on the phone.
His fingers isn’t near the trigger. It’s the back of the trigger guard that I was seeing.
Well that proves that theory Observation is no substitute for practice

 

[BeeMaa]

Are you applying constant pressure to the trigger? Are you sure that the forward motion of the safety is not causing your finger to make contact with the trigger a microsecond after the gun is off safe to cause it to fire?

Respectfully,

DB

I double checked and you are correct. Thank you.

If constant pressure is applied AND the cocking piece is pushed forward, it does NOT fire. However, it did take two hands for me to do this. With just one hand I was able to get it to fire and it must have been a microsecond between the two as you described.

Goes to show you. Those Blaser engineers had their thinking caps on. LOL.

@Daggaboy375 - I think you got right and left mixed up or your picture is upside down.

 

[Daggaboy375]

^^^^^Fixed.

I'm Old.

DB

 

[Daggaboy375]

BeeMaa,

I just held the trigger down on a cocked pre-64 Model 70 on safe. 3 position safety. Moved safety forward to off and gun fired.

Bergara Ridge same.

R8 is safer than that!!!

DB

 

[Red Leg]

My Springfield and Mauser are just as super safe ... when carried with an empty chamber. Dragged, kicked, snagged, whatever ... they cannot fire. To make them shoot does require cocking and loading which is a two handed affair. No chance of accidental discharge due to errant trigger finger. For final stalk, my gun MAY be carried with a round in the chamber. A quick glance from PH can determine if 3-position safety is engaged or not (Springfield not so much as it presently has 2-position Mauser style wing safety hidden on left side of the receiver behind the scope).

I would be much more comfortable guiding someone I didn't know who was shooting a 3-position Winchester or Mauser style safety than the R8 or Remington 700 configuration. No matter the configuration, clients should carry the guns unloaded till the PH puts them on the sticks. Then cock/load up with two hands.

I'm sure the R8 design has a lot going for it re portability, etc but this is a safety issue that is obviously a very real threat. A safety that is not real easy to disengage is not necessarily a bad thing. Ask me how I know!

You are absolutely correct. An unloaded Springfield or Mauser is just as safe as a Blaser with a round in the chamber.

It may come as a surprise to some here, but I suspect others have had the same experiences I have, but I have never left a vehicle, camp, or a boat in Africa this without a round in the chamber and the rifle either on safe or not cocked (R8 and S2). All of my guides and PH's have been aware, and all were fine that I did so. Over the years, I can think of at least half a dozen opportunities that would have been missed either due to time or noise had I not had a rifle ready to quickly fire.

Had a PH asked me to march around with an unchambered round in non-dangerous game country, I would have complied. Had he asked me to do so in dangerous game country, we would not have hunted.

Except for a boat in the Caprivi (at the PH's request and another story), the chambered round has always been returned to the magazine upon reaching the vehicle or approaching camp.

I am not sure why this would seem an odd way to handle a hunting firearm to anyone. After all, it is the same procedure all of us employ hunting quail, pheasant, or grouse with a guide or friends here in the States.