R8 3 accidental discharges, human error or?

[Hunting Hitman]

Maybe you should have shown him the video Toby made:

Blaser R8. Top Loading and De-cocking Video

Here's a video I made of top loading and de-cocking the Blaser R8. These two operations seem to be difficult for some people who are new to the R8. Hopefully this will help.

www.africahunting.com

Based on the direction used to unsafe/cock the R8, I think Borderers hypotheses is correct. The client most likely unknowingly had his finger on the trigger while struggling to arm the safety/cocking switch. Aka, the Negligent Discharge, especially considering the circumstances.

I’m sure that @One Day... could give us a dissertation on the mechanics involved with the R8 and potentially offer some other possibilities.

I completely agree. The hunter clearly was not comfortable with the safety mechanism and was pulling the trigger while trying to engage/disengage the safety.

HH

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I really appreciate all of the info I am receiving. We do not need to worry about a trigger group falling in snow, but fine sand could sure ruin your day.

On a previous hunt my wife did a field expedient fix on this same rifle. The rifles extendable recoil pad came apart, she took one of her socks off and slid it over the pad and stock. He took his elephant later that day. I did a shop repair that night. I do not know if that is a factory system or not?

 

[Red Leg]

I really appreciate all of the info I am receiving. We do not need to worry about a trigger group falling pin snow, but fine sand could sure ruin your day.

On a previous hunt my wife did a field expedient fix on this same rifle. The rifles extendable recoil pad came apart, she took one of her socks off and slid it over the pad and stock. He took his elephant later that day. I did a shop repair that night. I do not know if that is a factory system or not?

I own three R8's and six barrels. Have used them extensively here and in Africa (Mozambique and RSA). I have used loaners extensively in Europe. I have never had a AD, but I am very experienced with the rifle. The factory trigger pull is superb, but at approx 2lbs, it is lighter than the typical lawyer proof rifles offered by many other manufacturers. I have never tried it (who would?!?), but someone relatively inexperienced with the cocking slide might indeed create a problem while pressing it forward with a finger negligently on the trigger. I suspect that was the issue with this gentleman.

I have never seen an extendable recoil pad on a R8.

 

[BeeMaa]

I have a question on a R8 if the operator is squeezing the trigger and then cocks the rifle will it discharge or must the trigger be released then squeezed to discharege?

I’ll check on this when I get home.

This has never even crossed my mind. I’ll make a short video of how I operate the cocking device because I have to completely rotate my hand from a shooting grip to do so.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I had few situations like that in my guiding career. Surprisingly not with Blaser!
I had only situation with Blaser, you guys can decide if was the gun fault or hunter.
We hunted wild boars in the winter. He dropped the magazine and the trigger in the snow, he put it back. We stayed like 3,4 hours in the blind. On the way back we saw some boars. He tried to fire but the trigger was not working. He pushed hard few times. And when I took out the magazine I saw that pin was surrounded by ice. I removed the ice and trigger was working normally.
What I saw from hunters who are not used with Blaser or the hunters who are nervous when they see an animal: they have problems to push the safety!!!
I had same problem with new Mauser guns.

Perhaps, but with a Mauser outfitted with original 3-position striker safety, it's pretty much impossible to have one's finger on trigger when working the safety. Requires using both thumb and trigger finger to disengage the safety. I have absolutely no interest in owning an R8. Too gimmicky and too expensive.

 

[SRvet]

My money is that his finger crept onto the trigger blade. I don’t have a Blaser but recall they are also selling trigger/magazines called the Atzl trigger where a switch is flicked to choose between a hunting weight trigger and a match trigger which is even more sensitive. This could make AD more likely. I’m pleased no one was hurt!

 

[Red Leg]

I own Mausers, clones of Mausers, and push feeds equipped with three position safeties, flag safeties, and two position slide safeties. I have used them all extensively and unlike most critics of the R8, I own and use the Blaser extensively as well - to include dangerous game. Based upon my actual use of one, I have concluded that they are superbly accurate; they have the best factory ergonomics I have ever experienced; they have the best factory trigger of any rifle I have ever used; and they are the most transportable multirole rifle for international travel.

And unless there is an idiot operating the thing (whatever language he or she speaks), it is about as safe a design as can be created.

All of that is why the R8 seems to end up in the rifle case far more often than the others in the gunroom.

 

[bowjijohn]

Happened to me

I can confirm that the issue was “shit between my ears and finger on the trigger “

Cleared out the shit and now keep finger where it belongs

J

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I would not disagree with Red Leg and as I stated I was not present. I do feel if the individual continues to use the rifle in the manner or condition it is just a matter of time, but It will not happen here.

 

[Mekaniks]

I would not disagree with Red Leg and as I stated I was not present. I do feel if the individual continues to use the rifle in the manner or condition it is just a matter of time, but It will not happen here.

The only way you are going to know for sure is if you can test the rifle your self under controlled conditions.
It happened 3 times, so it should not be difficult to duplicate if it is indeed a mechanical malfunction.

 

[USN]

just glad no one was hurt

 

[SFRanger7GP]

I have seen AD's with these types of cocking safeties. Never an R8 but with Krieghoffs. The force required to move the safety to fire is often difficult for small hands and arthritic/injured hands. My wife cannot safely move the safety on my (former) Krieghoff dreiling or her Merkel K1. The natural movement for the untrained hand is to use the trigger/trigger guard for leverage. I watched her struggling with it when we were training.

Since we always hunt together, we developed a process. She gets on target and says "Listo. Dedo afuera." ("ready, finger is out" as in not inside the trigger guard or touching the trigger). I push it off safety and tell her "Listo" meaning the gun is ready to fire. We actually do that with all her rifles as she feels more comfortable, and she has never had an AD. The process works. It's not a lot different than how a military crew served weapon or sniper team function. They practice and communicate.

I have seen more than one PH roll his eyes at first. Probably a few people reading this are doing the same. Danger! Small woman with rifle! They have all told me they were concerned at first but became impressed. I had one PH tell me after he hunted with us, and watched me coaching and us working together, he started doing something similar when he noticed a client to be inexperienced and overly nervous.

The stories PH's have told me about unsafe clients are terrifying. Be careful out there. It only takes money and a few minutes to look like a Pro. Takes a lot of proper work to be one. Firm but polite and professional safety briefings and enforcement saves lives.

Safe hunting

 

[TOBY458]

My suggestion would be, if you're unable to easily cock the striker on an R8, don't use an R8. I find it very easy to cock and uncock, but I can see where people with arthritis or similar could find it difficult. Putting your finger inside the trigger guard while cocking an R8 or while taking the safety off on any rifle, is cause for concern.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Unless the person is hunting some where in the world. The person and the rifle is much closer to Bulgaria than Zim.

 

[mark-hunter]

Unsafe clients, and how to handle them?

I have seen number of you tube videos, from hunting in Africa, where clients shoot the animal.
Then, after the animal is down, I see that PH takes the rifle from client, removes it from the stick, and secures, switching the safety on, or unloading.

I see no other reason for this action, except that PH has judged the client unsafe in rifle handling.

It is interesting to see the social skills that PHs had developed in this action.
In this action they are non offensive and very polite. (let me help you, sir, or maam... etc, it sounds like helping and assisting... )

In this situation usually the client does not realize what he is doing (ie PH securing the rifle). And the client is totally focused on downed animal and thrilled full of adrenaline, just waiting to run to it, which he does next)

Needless to say, nobody ever secured my rifle for me.

 

[375Fox]

I spoke to a Namibian PH who had several accidental discharges from an R8. The clients were from Eastern Europe and not the best with gun safety from what he told me. He said trying to put the gun on/off safe they’d put their finger on the trigger. Nothing wrong with the R8 safety just the user.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I know very little of the R8 design. But I do know a little about analyzing for hazardous situations and making risk assessments. This a potential risk that would require mitigation.

In my world we have a saying that you can make something 100% idiot proof, but about that time the world builds a better idiot. Blowing off the situation to an idiot not knowing what he's doing is not the best thing to do.

It would seem information like this should be fed back to Blaser. I'm sure they will never publish anything that would suggest their product is anything but less than 100% safe with this litigious world we live in. But if they hear it enough and take the time to research the issue, there MAY in fact be an improvement that could/should be made.

 

[375Fox]

Since this is client’s rifle I just keep thinking how many times this has happened to him hunting elsewhere and at home if it happened 3 times on a zim hunt. This has to be stressful on the PH. I always show my PH my rifle is unloaded after taking an animal and getting in truck after two days they say I don’t need to, but I always continue to keep that discipline, and also have them catch me if I made a mistake.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

In my opinion, any rifle that comes from the factory with two pound pull is asking for trouble no matter what design safety is on it. But certainly any rifle that allows the shooter to ready the gun to fire with finger on the trigger (e.g. Remington side safety) will be inherently more prone to accidental discharge. And a rifle that requires EFFORT to ready the gun to fire (e.g. cocking) while the trigger finger can access the trigger is, in my opinion, even more dangerous.

I recently built a 404 Jeffery on a postwar Czech Mauser. I opted to pay the money for a 3-position Winchester style striker safety because I have experienced safety issues with the Buhler style scope relief safeties. It is almost impossible to release Buhler style striker safeties while keeping a finger on the trigger (especially Mauser sporter style on left side of the receiver/scope). However, some can be accidentally disengaged if bolt is tugged, and the exposed wing is easily caught on clothing, brush, etc if the scope is removed. Anyway, I didn't have any trouble adapting to the new safety even though the gun was only finally put together the week before leaving for Africa. Can I disengage that safety and still have my finger on the trigger? I'm not sure and the gun is gone for bluing right now so can't check. But I seriously doubt it. Wait ... the stock is still here. Should be able to do a simulated safety release. ... Seems it is possible. However, to disengage the 3-position safety requires moving my wrist forward which would seem to lift the finger away from the trigger. I don't pay much attention, but I suspect I naturally use my thumb AND trigger finger to release this safety because that's what I've had to do to release my Springfield's Buhler style safety and it's essentially the only big game rifle I have hunted with since 1964.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

In my opinion, any rifle that comes from the factory with two pound pull is asking for trouble no matter what design safety is on it. But certainly any rifle that allows the shooter to ready the gun to fire with finger on the trigger (e.g. Remington side safety) will be inherently more prone to accidental discharge. And a rifle that requires EFFORT to ready the gun to fire (e.g. cocking) while the trigger finger can access the trigger is, in my opinion, even more dangerous.

I recently built a 404 Jeffery on a postwar Czech Mauser. I opted to pay the money for a 3-position Winchester style striker safety because I have experienced safety issues with the Buhyler style scope relief safeties. It is almost impossible to release Buhler style striker safeties while keeping a finger on the trigger (especially Mauser sporter style on left side of the receiver/scope). But some can be accidentally disengaged if bolt is tugged, and the exposed wing is easily caught on clothing, brush, etc if the scope is removed. Anyway, I didn't have any trouble adapting to the new safety even though the gun was only finally put together the week before leaving for Africa. Can I disengage that safety and still have my finger on the trigger? I'm not sure and the gun is gone for bluing right now so can't check. But I seriously doubt it. Wait ... the stock is still here. Should be able to do a simulated safety release. ... Seems it is possible. However, to disengage the 3-position safety requires moving my wrist forward which would seem to lift the finger away from the trigger. I don't pay much attention, but I suspect I naturally use my trigger finger and thumb to release this safety because that's what I've had to do to release my Springfield's Buhler style safety and it's essentially the only big game rifle I have hunted with since 1964.

All of my M70's have a three position safety. One reason I prefer them is it basically forces me to use my right hand to operate them and in so doing I naturally move that hand away from the trigger. I guess I could train myself to use my left hand, but then what's the point?

Whatever the case, having your finger on the trigger when not ready to shoot is violating one of the cardinal rules of gun safety.