R8 3 accidental discharges, human error or?

[Rocked and Loaded]

One last note. As I stated language was a problem, but after both night time ADs he stated, good professional trigger? What ever the hell that means?

I think this lends credence to the “finger on the trigger” hypothesis.

Actually, it makes me wonder if he was not, in fact, aware that his finger was on the trigger the whole time? It sounds like he mentioned the trigger twice.

 

[BeeMaa]

A quick video of the Blaser R8 cocking device...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You are absolutely correct. An unloaded Springfield or Mauser is just as safe as a Blaser with a round in the chamber.

It may come as a surprise to some here, but I suspect others have had the same experiences I have, but I have never left a vehicle, camp, or a boat in Africa this without a round in the chamber and the rifle either on safe or not cocked (R8 and S2). All of my guides and PH's have been aware, and all were fine that I did so. Over the years, I can think of at least half a dozen opportunities that would have been missed either due to time or noise had I not had a rifle ready to quickly fire.

Had a PH asked me to march around with an unchambered round in non-dangerous game country, I would have complied. Had he asked me to do so in dangerous game country, we would not have hunted.

Except for a boat in the Caprivi (at the PH's request and another story), the chambered round has always been returned to the magazine upon reaching the vehicle or approaching camp.

I am not sure why this would seem an odd way to handle a hunting firearm to anyone. After all, it is the same procedure all of us employ hunting quail, pheasant, or grouse with a guide or friends here in the States.

Exactly. I hunt pheasants and waterfowl for at least two months each year almost every day with a round in the chamber. It's almost useless with an unloaded shotgun. And when I'm on the track stalking North American big game, the gun is almost always loaded. But I'm almost always hunting alone. If I stumble and fall and somehow the gun goes off (which is literally impossible), no one else is at risk. In Africa I'm hunting with PH and tracker. The country is typically not that foreboding and I am 100% safe but I still prefer to have an empty chamber except on the final stalk. It is a matter of showing consideration to the other guys who really don't know me.

 

[TOBY458]

Exactly. I hunt pheasants and waterfowl for at least two months each year almost every day with a round in the chamber. It's almost useless with an unloaded shotgun. And when I'm on the track stalking North American big game, the gun is almost always loaded. But I'm almost always hunting alone. If I stumble and fall and somehow the gun goes off (which is literally impossible), no one else is at risk. In Africa I'm hunting with PH and tracker. The country is typically not that foreboding and I am 100% safe but I still prefer to have an empty chamber except on the final stalk. It is a matter of showing consideration to the other guys who really don't know me.

I've always felt that if my PH is going to walk around muzzling me with a loaded rifle all day, I may as well return the favor! Lol!
In all seriousness, I've now done two complete 10 day hunts in Zimbabwe with an R8. It's perfectly safe to have a round in the chamber, when the rifle is uncocked. Much like a rifle with a hammer or hammers, nothing much can happen until the firing pin is put under tension. I believe it takes gross negligence, or unfamiliarity with the rifle on the part of the shooter to have an AD with an R8. Or any other rifle for the most part. Mechanical failures notwithstanding.

 

[Tra3]

My Springfield and Mauser are just as super safe ... when carried with an empty chamber. Dragged, kicked, snagged, whatever ... they cannot fire. To make them shoot does require cocking and loading which is a two handed affair. No chance of accidental discharge due to errant trigger finger. For final stalk, my gun MAY be carried with a round in the chamber. A quick glance from PH can determine if 3-position safety is engaged or not (Springfield not so much as it presently has 2-position Mauser style wing safety hidden on left side of the receiver behind the scope).

I would be much more comfortable guiding someone I didn't know who was shooting a 3-position Winchester or Mauser style safety than the R8 or Remington 700 configuration. No matter the configuration, clients should carry the guns unloaded till the PH puts them on the sticks. Then cock/load up with two hands.

I'm sure the R8 design has a lot going for it re portability, etc but this is a safety issue that is obviously a very real threat. A safety that is not real easy to disengage is not necessarily a bad thing. Ask me how I know!

I have rifles with 3 position safeties: Winchester and Kimber. It is very easy to use the thumb to click the safety off. That is not a good habit. I learned that it is possible to flip the safety off while one’s finger is on the trigger. That resulted in my 15 year old self missing an antelope. Thankfully I was already prone and ready to shoot.
I won’t walk with a round in the chamber with a 3 position safety; it is possible to brush the safety off with a backpack or tree branch, etc. it was a good design many years ago. It is not the best design today.
An R8 has a much safer safety design. With the gun on safe, the spring is not cocked (under tension) so it cannot accidentally be taken off safe like a 3 position safety. It is a superior design and very easy to get used to. But it takes practice.
I bought R8’s for myself and my kids because I believe the safety system will reduce the chance of an error, Especially for a new hunter.

 

[WAB]

You are absolutely correct. An unloaded Springfield or Mauser is just as safe as a Blaser with a round in the chamber.

It may come as a surprise to some here, but I suspect others have had the same experiences I have, but I have never left a vehicle, camp, or a boat in Africa this without a round in the chamber and the rifle either on safe or not cocked (R8 and S2). All of my guides and PH's have been aware, and all were fine that I did so. Over the years, I can think of at least half a dozen opportunities that would have been missed either due to time or noise had I not had a rifle ready to quickly fire.

Had a PH asked me to march around with an unchambered round in non-dangerous game country, I would have complied. Had he asked me to do so in dangerous game country, we would not have hunted.

Except for a boat in the Caprivi (at the PH's request and another story), the chambered round has always been returned to the magazine upon reaching the vehicle or approaching camp.

I am not sure why this would seem an odd way to handle a hunting firearm to anyone. After all, it is the same procedure all of us employ hunting quail, pheasant, or grouse with a guide or friends here in the States.

This is exactly my experience. I would not wander about DG country without a round up the pipe. If you don’t think an unprovoked charge can happen, you have not spent enough time in the bush.

 

[WAB]

Exactly. I hunt pheasants and waterfowl for at least two months each year almost every day with a round in the chamber. It's almost useless with an unloaded shotgun. And when I'm on the track stalking North American big game, the gun is almost always loaded. But I'm almost always hunting alone. If I stumble and fall and somehow the gun goes off (which is literally impossible), no one else is at risk. In Africa I'm hunting with PH and tracker. The country is typically not that foreboding and I am 100% safe but I still prefer to have an empty chamber except on the final stalk. It is a matter of showing consideration to the other guys who really don't know me.

That’s fine on a SA ranch hunt. That would be I’ll advised in the bush.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I'm thinking if the guy reloaded his rifle in camp when the agreed-upon rules are the rifle is to be unloaded in camp, then the discharge is operator error. I'm not saying the R8 is perfect. What I am saying is we have a situation with a rifle that is known to be reliable and safe by all who actually use it and we have an operator who clearly doesn't follow the safety rules of the camp. Unless a clear mechanical defect of some sort is identified, that rifle went bang because the operator pulled the trigger, pure and simple.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I'm thinking if the guy reloaded his rifle in camp when the agreed-upon rules are the rifle is to be unloaded in camp, then the discharge is operator error. I'm not saying the R8 is perfect. What I am saying is we have a situation with a rifle that is known to be reliable and safe by all who actually use it and we have an operator who clearly doesn't follow the safety rules of the camp. Unless a clear mechanical defect of some sort is identified, that rifle went bang because the operator pulled the trigger, pure and simple.

As is usually the case.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I am going to speculate that the poorly commuincative client in this case would be best served with the Kalashnikov manual of arms with the safety left off and the hammer down on an empty chamber. He probably understands that way a lot better and risk is much less. Doesn't the R8 also lock shut as well on the decocked bolt? If so he's going to have to complete a bit of manipulation to get things loaded. None of those actions which would likely result in the trigger finger being able to be present in the trigger guard at the same time.

 

[sureshot375]

Did the rifle belong to the client, or was it a camp rifle?

How many NDs does a hunter get before he looses shooting privileges?

 

[Dinsdale]

Hi Bee Ma, As I stated the client spoke almost no english.

The client is extremely experienced. Experience does not necessarily mean safe.

There was no excuse for having a loaded rifle in camp. Period

Discharge 2 & 3 were at night, client was using Thermal image. As I said difficult to see fingers and thumbs in the dark.

All the other conversation aside….

Got to feel for PH’s who always get vetted in depth by the client but there is almost no recourse for a PH to deal with the unknown they are getting. As you said lots of poor experience might as well be none if they cant listen to basic instruction or cant handle a firearm they bring.


On the Blaser deal I have owned several for 20 years, over a dozen barrels with many rounds and no operating problems. I’m comfortable with it, others fumble around with basic operation.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Did the rifle belong to the client, or was it a camp rifle?

How many NDs does a hunter get before he looses shooting privileges?

As stated earlier, client rifle. Client had no more ammunition left after last discharge and it was his last night. Hunting finished.
Camp rifles are perfectly maintained M-70 & perfectly maintained CZ 550 M-70 safety.
Factory ammunition. Glass Swarovski or Trijicon RMR.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I might add. He did bring a translator. A pretty young lady he had met a couple of days before, there was not a lot of translating that took place.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

If it were me, i would probably have have the rifle checked, just to be safe. However I strongly believe the operator is the problem.
After the second AD I would have confiscated all live ammo and possibly the rifle if he were in my vicinity.

 

[AimSmall]

Pretty good reminder of how easily, and quickly, unintended consequences can appear.

Everyone is a range safety officer.

 

[wingshot74]

To truly make an accurate assessment, we’re going to need pics of the translator.

 

[mark-hunter]

I might add. He did bring a translator. A pretty young lady he had met a couple of days before, there was not a lot of ranslating that took place.

Ah, so, this brings new light to the event.
He should have gone to Fiji, Bora-Bora, Hawai or Bahamas with her.... not hunting camp.

 

[mdwest]

I might add. He did bring a translator. A pretty young lady he had met a couple of days before, there was not a lot of translating that took place.

Pics or it didn’t happen!

 

[Inline6]

In my opinion, any rifle that comes from the factory with two pound pull is asking for trouble no matter what design safety is on it. But certainly any rifle that allows the shooter to ready the gun to fire with finger on the trigger (e.g. Remington side safety) will be inherently more prone to accidental discharge. And a rifle that requires EFFORT to ready the gun to fire (e.g. cocking) while the trigger finger can access the trigger is, in my opinion, even more dangerous.

I recently built a 404 Jeffery on a postwar Czech Mauser. I opted to pay the money for a 3-position Winchester style striker safety because I have experienced safety issues with the Buhler style scope relief safeties. It is almost impossible to release Buhler style striker safeties while keeping a finger on the trigger (especially Mauser sporter style on left side of the receiver/scope). However, some can be accidentally disengaged if bolt is tugged, and the exposed wing is easily caught on clothing, brush, etc if the scope is removed. Anyway, I didn't have any trouble adapting to the new safety even though the gun was only finally put together the week before leaving for Africa. Can I disengage that safety and still have my finger on the trigger? I'm not sure and the gun is gone for bluing right now so can't check. But I seriously doubt it. Wait ... the stock is still here. Should be able to do a simulated safety release. ... Seems it is possible. However, to disengage the 3-position safety requires moving my wrist forward which would seem to lift the finger away from the trigger. I don't pay much attention, but I suspect I naturally use my thumb AND trigger finger to release this safety because that's what I've had to do to release my Springfield's Buhler style safety and it's essentially the only big game rifle I have hunted with since 1964.

People have a right to feel whatever they do, that said. A 2 pound trigger with the correct adjustment is just as safe as a 5 pound trigger. As far as safeties goes...don't put your finger on the trigger. I have hunted with triggers in the 4oz range (not DG). Never had an AD with them. Just because you do not understand the R8 doesn't mean they are bad rifles.

The common denominator in the situation is the client and the rifle. Had someone else been using this very rifle. We probably would not be having this conversation. Could something be wrong with the rifle in question? Answer is yes, could it be the way the rifle is being handled by the client? Answer, more than likely.