Questions about the African Carry and Others

[Tam Dl]

The four rules of gun safety came about in the mid-1960's by Jeff Cooper. Another quote that may help you out...“Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Winston Churchill.

Feel free to carry your firearm in any manner you wish as I will not be present.

It is also important to maintain a cool head, where danger lurks.

Churchill as a great writer of history, some of which he was present for, probably did not mean by "history", something completely unsupported by data. A lot of people have opinions in this thread, I do too. But where is the data? Does African carry by competent people lead to more deaths. Show me the data.

There are a lot of safety nazis around, and they often push the wrong policy. Bike helmets are an interesting example. mandating them actually increases accidents, and many jurisdictions that mandated them have now reversed their laws. Part of the reason was because the most popular helmets are actually designed to protect against a fall equivalent to when a learner falls sideways off the bike while attempting to mount it. In general, people will even out their behaviour to meet changes in condition. Attempt riskier descents because they have a helmet on. Theory only goes so far. There are potential advantages to African carry, such as reduced exhaustion, etc... We actually need the data to reach conclusions.

 

[BeeMaa]

It is also important to maintain a cool head, where danger lurks.

Churchill as a great writer of history, some of which he was present for, probably did not mean by "history", something completely unsupported by data. A lot of people have opinions in this thread, I do too. But where is the data? Does African carry by competent people lead to more deaths. Show me the data.

There are a lot of safety nazis around, and they often push the wrong policy. Bike helmets are an interesting example. mandating them actually increases accidents, and many jurisdictions that mandated them have now reversed their laws. Part of the reason was because the most popular helmets are actually designed to protect against a fall equivalent to when a learner falls sideways off the bike while attempting to mount it. In general, people will even out their behaviour to meet changes in condition. Attempt riskier descents because they have a helmet on. Theory only goes so far. There are potential advantages to African carry, such as reduced exhaustion, etc... We actually need the data to reach conclusions.

Common sense doesn’t require data to back it up, that’s why it’s called common sense. African carry while tolerated in some instances is not always the best option.

And this data that “we” need…I don’t need it. Not sure if anyone else does either. Why don’t you invest your time researching this data so you can further educate the membership.

 

[Sourdough]

I call total BS that a rifle in African Carry went off by itself. Once down in port arms and the hunters finger in the trigger guard maybe, but on the shoulder, hand way out on the barrel past the forestock- BS.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I call total BS that a rifle in African Carry went off by itself. Once down in port arms and the hunters finger in the trigger guard maybe, but on the shoulder, hand way out on the barrel past the forestock- BS.

An improperly constructed or modified rifle can fire by itself. I changed the trigger on my Springfield and it would fire if the butt was set down hard. Required some modification of the striker to remedy. A lot of folks had similar problems with the now infamous Remington Model 700. And brush can easily grab an exposed trigger riding on top of a hunter's shoulder. I can almost guarantee my Springfield would come off safe and fire when traversing African carry through any kind of brush, chamber loaded and scope removed.

 

[Zambezi]

An improperly constructed or modified rifle can fire by itself. I changed the trigger on my Springfield and it would fire if the butt was set down hard. Required some modification of the striker to remedy. A lot of folks had similar problems with the now infamous Remington Model 700. And brush can easily grab an exposed trigger riding on top of a hunter's shoulder. I can almost guarantee my Springfield would come off safe and fire when traversing African carry through any kind of brush, chamber loaded and scope removed.

Then I'm sorry to say but if you take that rifle into the field you're an accident waiting to happen.
I have a lot or respect for your but if you were behind me then I'd be pissed off no matter what "carry" you employed.

 

[WAB]

I call total BS that a rifle in African Carry went off by itself. Once down in port arms and the hunters finger in the trigger guard maybe, but on the shoulder, hand way out on the barrel past the forestock- BS.

Having trekked many, many miles through the Kalahari thorn scrub, I could definitely see it happening. That crap grabs everything. That’s why some rid themselves of slings and scopes. Just more crap to hang up. Could a safety get bumped off and a trigger actuated, low probability but absolutely possible.

 

[IvW]

I often dont understand the need to have a loaded rifle when starting out from the truck.....plenty time to load before shot is taken.

If the stalk is getting to final stages or following a wounded animal is a different story......

I have seen gangs of guys with rifles doubles etc. Up to six all loading up and african carry when just starting out on a track that is considered worthy of following......

 

[Zambezi]

Question: you're in that tight thorn scrub, do you carry your rifle perpendicular to the path? or do you carry it in line with the path? if you carry it perpendicular you're going to get snagged on the barrel or stock causing it sweep. If you carry in line with the path then you carry with the muzzle facing the person in front of you. If you carry "slung" barrel down your trigger could get snagged to and shoot the person behind you.

I have to say, and I mean not offence to anyone whatsoever, that I call BS on the snagging issue.

If it can be proven that 1 out of 20/100/10 000 woundings or death is caused by snagging due to African carry then I'll reassess my point of view.

IT"S FOLKLORE.

100 times more people have been wounded or or had AD from carrying port arms than African carry due to fingers near the trigger. Sorry, just fact.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Then I'm sorry to say but if you take that rifle into the field you're an accident waiting to happen.
I have a lot or respect for your but if you were behind me then I'd be pissed off no matter what "carry" you employed.

I am looking for another safety. Wisner makes a side lever 2-position that I'm considering. Gentry makes a nice Model 70 style 3-position but $500 is a bit over the top I think. Until then if the scope is off, there's nothing in the chamber. Not really necessary anyway since it's a non-DGR 30-06 and holds five in the magazine. Most of the time the scope is attached which protects the safety. There's never a round chambered if I'm hunting with others ... which, Africa excepted, is rare. I typically hunt alone. I need to change that safety before passing this gun on to the next generation. For that reason when I built my 404 on a Mauser 98 earlier this year I opted for 3-position Model 70 style striker safety rather than 2-position scope relief wing safety. But that safety was only $200. I would have no worries carrying that gun any style without the scope in any terrain/vegetation.

 

[Sourdough]

@WAB if you are going through stuff that thick and grabby the guns not on your shoulder with the barrel pointed out at an oblique angle where it will catch everything. It will be in your hand, perhaps even with the butt stock forward, or if you like slings the barrel will be down and gun tight to your body.

 

[Zambezi]

I often dont understand the need to have a loaded rifle when starting out from the truck.....plenty time to load before shot is taken.

If the stalk is getting to final stages or following a wounded animal is a different story......

I have seen gangs of guys with rifles doubles etc. Up to six all loading up and african carry when just starting out on a track that is considered worthy of following......

Yep, gun safety from the time you wake up to the time you take the shot. If you get out the bakkie, cycle the bolt and put one up the spout and start walking all day when you don't even know if the quarry is in the vicinity then that's bad gun safety. No matter the carry method

 

[IvW]

Question: you're in that tight thorn scrub, do you carry your rifle perpendicular to the path? or do you carry it in line with the path? if you carry it perpendicular you're going to get snagged on the barrel or stock causing it sweep. If you carry in line with the path then you carry with the muzzle facing the person in front of you. If you carry "slung" barrel down your trigger could get snagged to and shoot the person behind you.

I have to say, and I mean not offence to anyone whatsoever, that I call BS on the snagging issue.

If it can be proven that 1 out of 20/100/10 000 woundings or death is caused by snagging due to African carry then I'll reassess my point of view.

IT"S FOLKLORE.

100 times more people have been wounded or or had AD from carrying port arms than African carry due to fingers near the trigger. Sorry, just fact.

How do you shoot somebody behind you with slung barrel down??
If your left hand is on the foreend wood your arm covers the trigger guard and also the trigger....
Worst case cenario is you shoot left of your left foot.....which should wake you up pretty fast......

 

[Zambezi]

How do you shoot somebody behind you with slung barrel down??
If your left hand is on the foreend wood your arm covers the trigger guard and also the trigger....
Worst case cenario is you shoot left of your left foot.....which should wake you up pretty fast......

Agreed. The anti African carry are mainly saying that muzzle safety is the issue, so if you carry slung with muzzle down when you bend down your muzzle lifts pointing backwards.

The other point is snagging. I know when walking through tight bush that "could" produce a snag the the trigger is next to my face not somewhere down my flank. Every single human is aware of danger to their eyes so they will be aware of thorns, snags etc near their face and therefore will be aware of snags near their / eyes ergo the trigger.

 

[IvW]

Too many live in a dream world where they think the minute you step away from the Land Cruiser you are going to get randomly charged around the next bush by members of the big five....

Check out how often even some PH's who load up with conventional safety double rifles remove the double and when they use their binos the conveniantly prop the fully loaded rifle without checking the safety angling backwards and balanced by their dick or balls pointing nicely upward from there....dick or balls gone....up into the gut and out the spine at the back.....wonderful setup.....

Slung left shoulder barrel down and binos either with a rick or strap over the right shoulder you let go the rifle binos up gun does not drop or move and you can glass safely all you want.....

Yes if it gets close in or following a wounded dg animal loose the sling via qd mounts and get on with the task at hand but then the rifle should be in both hands.....

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Question: you're in that tight thorn scrub, do you carry your rifle perpendicular to the path? or do you carry it in line with the path? if you carry it perpendicular you're going to get snagged on the barrel or stock causing it sweep. If you carry in line with the path then you carry with the muzzle facing the person in front of you. If you carry "slung" barrel down your trigger could get snagged to and shoot the person behind you.

I have to say, and I mean not offence to anyone whatsoever, that I call BS on the snagging issue.

If it can be proven that 1 out of 20/100/10 000 woundings or death is caused by snagging due to African carry then I'll reassess my point of view.

IT"S FOLKLORE.

100 times more people have been wounded or or had AD from carrying port arms than African carry due to fingers near the trigger. Sorry, just fact.

In really thick stuff I grasp my gun (rifle or shotgun) at the forend palm up with my right hand and tuck the trigger group behind my elbow against my body above the belt. Muzzle is tipped down to the ground in front of me.

 

[Scanos]

I for one have had no issue controlling where my muzzle points while african carrying. All one has to do is drop the elbow and lay the rifle more across the shoulders pointing the muzzle away from anyone to the front of you. I agree it is not a great option for picking your way through the Jess. For carrying a heavy double many miles through more open terrain it is actually comfortable and can allow one to maintain muzzle control. It has never been an issue with my PH on any hunts.

 

[375Fox]

I often dont understand the need to have a loaded rifle when starting out from the truck.....plenty time to load before shot is taken.

If the stalk is getting to final stages or following a wounded animal is a different story......

Except when there is no stalk. I’ve gone from on a track to shoot now more than a few times. I’ll keep my gun loaded if that’s what the PH tells me to do in that area.

 

[Longrifle]

I have used the ‘African’ carry and found it to be well balanced, efficient and safe while hunting. Muzzle awareness is the key to safety. When there is a PH, trackers, cameraman, game ranger, etc all around I stay close to my PH and orient the muzzle of my double out-board. When shifting positions or hands, I will orient the muzzle away (up/down) to avoid flagging others.
On my last hunt, I stepped in a hole and fell flat on my chest like a cut tree. I instinctively kept my muzzle point out-board, on my shoulder and away from my head. My body kept the rifle from hitting the ground. Had the rifle discharged, it would have rendered me more deaf but, would have also traveled safely out into the bush.
Stick to what you comfortable with and what you consider safe. 27-years of military has burned muzzle awareness into my brain and muscles so, I am comfortable with ‘African’ carry. While in the military, I never used a sling to carry a rifle and ‘African’ carry was common with heavy weapons systems. Muzzle awareness and discipline are the keys to safety. IMHO

 

[375Fox]

Too many live in a dream world where they think the minute you step away from the Land Cruiser you are going to get randomly charged around the next bush by members of the big five....

Check out how often even some PH's who load up with conventional safety double rifles remove the double and when they use their binos the conveniantly prop the fully loaded rifle without checking the safety angling backwards and balanced by their dick or balls pointing nicely upward from there....dick or balls gone....up into the gut and out the spine at the back.....wonderful setup.....

Slung left shoulder barrel down and binos either with a rick or strap over the right shoulder you let go the rifle binos up gun does not drop or move and you can glass safely all you want.....

Yes if it gets close in or following a wounded dg animal loose the sling via qd mounts and get on with the task at hand but then the rifle should be in both hands.....

It appears you are living in the dream world. There are a number of PHs who have experienced unprovoked charges in DG areas. I cannot think of one though who has shot himself in the balls as you suggest though or even a client on a DG hunt. Most PHs that carry rifle African style continue holding the rifle that way while glassing. Only a select few hunters would lean a loaded rifle against themselves as you suggest.

 

[Red Leg]

I have used the ‘African’ carry and found it to be well balanced, efficient and safe while hunting. Muzzle awareness is the key to safety. When there is a PH, trackers, cameraman, game ranger, etc all around I stay close to my PH and orient the muzzle of my double out-board. When shifting positions or hands, I will orient the muzzle away (up/down) to avoid flagging others.
On my last hunt, I stepped in a hole and fell flat on my chest like a cut tree. I instinctively kept my muzzle point out-board, on my shoulder and away from my head. My body kept the rifle from hitting the ground. Had the rifle discharged, it would have rendered me more deaf but, would have also traveled safely out into the bush.
Stick to what you comfortable with and what you consider safe. 27-years of military has burned muzzle awareness into my brain and muscles so, I am comfortable with ‘African’ carry. While in the military, I never used a sling to carry a rifle and ‘African’ carry was common with heavy weapons systems. Muzzle awareness and discipline are the keys to safety. IMHO

I spent 29 years in the army and you aren’t walking behind me carryIng a rifle like that. And by the way, assuming you actually mean a crew served weapon when you say “heavy weapon system” at least in no unit to which I was ever assigned would a crew-served weapon have had a round in the chamber other than when in use (That whole firing from an open bolt thing).