Questions about the African Carry and Others

[Woodcarver]

I, too, like the Rhodesian carry but with one caveat....it makes it SO easy for brush to snag the bolt handle knob and open the action--have had that happen several times since a Mannlicher Schoenauer is so slick and easy to open. The rifle, scope side down means that the handle is turned forwards and acts like a brush hook.

As others have pointed out, most safeties lock the bolt, so it's not going to be pulled open. My left arm is also shielding the action in this position. When going through brush, I'm also turning my body to avoid dragging on limbs and such. If it's really thick, the rifle is in my hand, with even more control. I've never been in the habit of using my rifle to part the brush to get through either.
When carrying a bolt with the muzzle up, I have had the bolt handle catch on my clothing, and the muzzle can get hung up in low hanging branches as well. That's a big reason why I started looking for a better way to sling my rifle years ago.
Tried a sling called the Safari Sling, which carries the rifle horizontally in front. Very easy and quick to use, good muzzle control, sucked in the woods. It made it a bit of a pain to navigate even moderately thick timber as the rifle really wants to be almost sideways while carrying. Works great in open country, just not so well in the thick stuff.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I do appreciate all of the input and opinion from a wide array of hunters from many parts of the world. In reading all of the posts a few things stand out to me as being generally true:

1. There are times in the field when the rifles should not have a round chambered. Conditions, location and circumstance will determine this.
2. There are times in the field when the rifle should be loaded. This is a judgement call.
3. There are times in the field when the rifle must be loaded.
4. The mental and physical stress of hunting can be challenging to even experienced hunters at times.
5. It is possible due to stress, fatigue, injury, etc for a hunter to fail to unload a rifle when he/she should have. It happens. It should not but it does. No matter how careful we are.
6. It is possible for a rifle to be loaded at times in the field both when it should be and when it should not be. Therefore, the best practice is to ALWAYS treat the rifle as if it is loaded and NEVER point the muzzle at yourself or others regardless of the loaded/unloaded status of the weapon at that time or your chosen method of carry.
7. By making #6 an ingrained habit, we are less likely to hurt someone should an AD occur for any reason.

What prompted the original post was what appeared to me as a relative Cavalier attitude toward gun handling safety which seemed to often be on display in Africa with some hunting clients and PH's.

 

[grand veneur]

...
What prompted the original post was what appeared to me as a relative Cavalier attitude toward gun handling safety which seemed to often be on display in Africa with some hunting clients and PH's.

Serious accusation !

Are you aware of what you are writing?

 

[IvW]

I do appreciate all of the input and opinion from a wide array of hunters from many parts of the world. In reading all of the posts a few things stand out to me as being generally true:

1. There are times in the field when the rifles should not have a round chambered. Conditions, location and circumstance will determine this.
2. There are times in the field when the rifle should be loaded. This is a judgement call.
3. There are times in the field when the rifle must be loaded.
4. The mental and physical stress of hunting can be challenging to even experienced hunters at times.
5. It is possible due to stress, fatigue, injury, etc for a hunter to fail to unload a rifle when he/she should have. It happens. It should not but it does. No matter how careful we are.
6. It is possible for a rifle to be loaded at times in the field both when it should be and when it should not be. Therefore, the best practice is to ALWAYS treat the rifle as if it is loaded and NEVER point the muzzle at yourself or others regardless of the loaded/unloaded status of the weapon at that time or your chosen method of carry.
7. By making #6 an ingrained habit, we are less likely to hurt someone should an AD occur for any reason.

What prompted the original post was what appeared to me as a relative Cavalier attitude toward gun handling safety which seemed to often be on display in Africa with some hunting clients and PH's.

Well said....

 

[IvW]

Serious accusation !

Are you aware of what you are writing?

He made no accusations and actually posted a very well thought through post.....

 

[Zambezi]

99.2756% of the time accidents happen with a round in the chamber and a finger on the trigger. Even if you're only shooting a wasp nest above you. Eliminate the round in the chamber until it is required and keep your sweaty little fingers away from the pew pew button.

 

[skydiver386]

Interesting video for a lot of different reasons, but on the subject at hand, count how many times the rifle gets pointed at someone. The first time is inside of 5 seconds into the video.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If the chamber is empty, why would the safety be engaged to lock the bolt closed? Only slows down loading and firing in a hurry if needed.

I had one PH who only insisted my 30-06 Springfield rifle be unloaded in the vehicle. That is standard for me anyway. He was okay with me carrying the gun loaded in the field ... but I was not. The safety was not 100% reliable and there just is no reason to be carrying loaded when hunting plains game. Here, when I'm hunting deer and elk, I'm alone. I carry with a load in the chamber and rifle mostly slung on right side.

 

[spike.t]

Controlled feed or push feed in a DG rifle......oops wrong thread

 

[Philip Glass]

Why would that be a requirement? Especially when the visting hunter is on his firat dg safari?
Typically you start off on tracks and follow for hours.....more often than not you make no contact...plenty of time to chamber a round when you start getting close....PH and trackers will know ezactly when this will be.

If you bump into something that is not being tracked it is the ph responsibiliyy to deal with the situation.....if the visiting hunter cannot chamber a round when that occurs they probably should not be hunting dg.....

After a built up relationship with a revisiting vlient it may be different. ..

I certainly understand novice hunters and the concern on their gun handling skills. That said anyone who is in and out of elephant herds in Zim with an unloaded gun is quite foolish.

 

[Philip Glass]

Serious accusation !

Are you aware of what you are writing?

I guess we are in one of those "arm chair quarterback" scenarios. People see hunting videos and begin to bash those being featured. I am not aware of widespread recklessness with guns in Africa and I've been a few times.

 

[Zambezi]

If someone is reckless in the bush then it's up to the PH to educate him/her. The PH is in charge of the safety protocols from the time the hunter arrives until he/she leaves. If your PH is happy with you carrying one up then so be it. I personally am not comfortable with anyone carrying one up behind me until the fun is about to begin (i.e. the quarry has been spotted or known to be in the immediate vicinity).

 

[spike.t]

Controlled feed or push feed in a DG rifle......oops wrong thread

Took the piss.....but Another One that will run to lots of useless pages....

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Interesting video for a lot of different reasons, but on the subject at hand, count how many times the rifle gets pointed at someone. The first time is inside of 5 seconds into the video.

The video referenced above sort of highlights the reason for my original post and questions about the use of the African carry method. Earlier another post asked if I was so worried about gun handling safety in the bush, why bother hunting in Africa where so many other dangers exist? I am not worried about safe gun handling, I merely do not want other hunters pointing their muzzles at me anywhere in Africa or elsewhere. I am quite aware of some of the dangers both real and imagined as well as being well aware that I cannot know what I do not know. Some info about me: Everything that I do for fun involves some element of competition, risk, requires extreme mental focus and/or physical challenge. Some examples:

• Motorcycle racer - Both roadracing and MX, while inherently dangerous, I still wore helmet, leathers, boots gloves armor, etc to help manage those risks.
• Chess champion - competitive, requiring mental focus. Not dangerous unless your opponent is a bad loser, lol
• Former national precision rifle champion - performance under pressure against many very talented marksmen. While not too dangerous, there are still hundreds of competitors handling firearms as well and noise from the rifles. Why wear ear protection if it is so dangerous at the range?? lol. Was also a IPSC pistol competitor and national range officer.
• Hunter - the challenge of stalking and taking game blessed with senses of hearing, smell, eyesight far better than mine.
• Fly fisherman - the thrill of fooling a big brown trout with nothing but a ball of fur and a hook, plus the zen of casting a fly rod rig in perfect natural setting.
• Sportscar racer - winner of sports car challenge at Mid-OH raceway a few years back. And yes, I wore a seatbelt harness and helmet, etc despite the danger of racing around a track at speed.
• Motorcyclist - for many years. In my mind this could be more dangerous than road racing. Adding idiots in cars browsing their cell phones all while pretending to be in control of their autos with all the other risks. It requires constant mental focus. And I have ridden many of the USA and Europe's most challenging roads.
• Aerobatic pilot. As if flying alone was not dangerous enough. Flying just like riding a mc requires the use of both sides of one's brain. Flying aerobatics requires navigation in 3 dimensions. It hits all of the pleasure centers in my little pea brain.

I share these details about me personally to help you understand that I enjoy challenges like these and in part it is why I was attracted to African hunting in the first place. It is a challenge. It requires mental focus, teamwork, both physical and mental skills, includes elements of danger, etc. It is a personal challenge that is also in a unique setting. But, I do not do these things because I like danger or risk taking just for the sake of tempting fate. Only that life is sweetest when it is lived close to the edge.

Just because there are other dangers involved in some of those recreational activities, in no way means I do not attempt to manage those dangers which can be minimize thru proper use of technique or deployment of necessary PPE. It is just prudent. My post was an honest attempt to understand the value of the African carry method since it seemed to be in common use and was not intuitively obvious to me from the outside looking in. So far, I remain unconvinced. Thank you for your inputs lads. It is appreciated.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Buffalo kill more people than anything on the planet? :>)))

I don’t think it’s the method of carry that is concerning. Lack of muzzle discipline happens in every method of carry.

This video is ridiculous. Here he has the muzzle sweeping the tracker and PH repeatedly while plowing through brush. With zero concern for the safety or trigger.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

99.2756% of the time accidents happen with a round in the chamber and a finger on the trigger. Even if you're only shooting a wasp nest above you. Eliminate the round in the chamber until it is required and keep your sweaty little fingers away from the pew pew button.

To echo the statement by Zambezi above: A co-worker told me about this series of accidental shootings in KY from this weekend during deer season:

GARRARD COUNTY, Ky. (WKYT) - Two hunters are dead after two separate incidents in Garrard County over the weekend. We’re told 77-year-old (name removed), of Indiana, was killed in the first incident Saturday morning in the Buckeye community. Then, on Sunday, 26-year-old (name removed), of Garrard County, was killed in an incident in the northern part of the county. Sheriff Willie Skeens says both men were walking when they accidentally shot and killed themselves. Skeens tells us he has never seen anything like this in 30 years of law enforcement.

Walking in the dark to the deer stand with a loaded weapon just seems like a poor practice. Slips, trips, falls, etc can all happen. I typically load the magazine but keep the chamber empty until I reach my stand if I am hunting from a stationary stand. If hunting spot and stalk, I still typically leave the chamber empty until game is spotted. Exceptions such as upland bird hunting or other game where there is little to no time to react do exist. Example was hunting Wild Boar with dogs in TN. We had to chase the dogs to stay close so that when a boar was bayed we could kill it quickly before it cut up or killed the dogs. I was running with a loaded rifle in hand and safety on. When it came time to take the shot, I was only 5y from the quarry and the boar jumped out from under dead falls and I had about 2 sec to take a shot. I was already kneeling trying to see it when it jumped out from cover and began fighting with the two hounds. It hooked one and tossed it into my lap and hooked the other and tossed it over the hill. There was no time to stand or back off. I placed a perfect shoulder shot with a 308, 165g Nosler at contact distance which ended the hunt without any further mayhem. Looking back, running thru the woods with the loaded rifle was not my best safety moment but I was young and dumb back then. The rifle was not slung during any of that hunt. It was carried port arms at all times and I was well trained to keep finger off the trigger until time to shoot. Still, I will be first to admit it was dumb. But, made sense at the time. I did make a mental note to use a handgun for that type of hunting next time. A holstered pistol is a better choice and is plenty enough gun to kill a hog. The largest hog killed that day was a 420lb boar shot with a 45acp 230g HP. A one shot kill that dropped it in its tracks. Mine was 325lb and did run a short distance.

 

[spike.t]

To echo the statement by Zambezi above: A co-worker told me about this series of accidental shootings in KY from this weekend during deer season:

GARRARD COUNTY, Ky. (WKYT) - Two hunters are dead after two separate incidents in Garrard County over the weekend. We’re told 77-year-old (name removed), of Indiana, was killed in the first incident Saturday morning in the Buckeye community. Then, on Sunday, 26-year-old (name removed), of Garrard County, was killed in an incident in the northern part of the county. Sheriff Willie Skeens says both men were walking when they accidentally shot and killed themselves. Skeens tells us he has never seen anything like this in 30 years of law enforcement.

Walking in the dark to the deer stand with a loaded weapon just seems like a poor practice. Slips, trips, falls, etc can all happen. I typically load the magazine but keep the chamber empty until I reach my stand if I am hunting from a stationary stand. If hunting spot and stalk, I still typically leave the chamber empty until game is spotted. Exceptions such as upland bird hunting or other game where there is little to no time to react do exist. Example was hunting Wild Boar with dogs in TN. We had to chase the dogs to stay close so that when a boar was bayed we could kill it quickly before it cut up or killed the dogs. I was running with a loaded rifle in hand and safety on. When it came time to take the shot, I was only 5y from the quarry and the boar jumped out from under dead falls and I had about 2 sec to take a shot. I was already kneeling trying to see it when it jumped out from cover and began fighting with the two hounds. It hooked one and tossed it into my lap and hooked the other and tossed it over the hill. There was no time to stand or back off. I placed a perfect shoulder shot with a 308, 165g Nosler at contact distance which ended the hunt without any further mayhem. Looking back, running thru the woods with the loaded rifle was not my best safety moment but I was young and dumb back then. The rifle was not slung during any of that hunt. It was carried port arms at all times and I was well trained to keep finger off the trigger until time to shoot. Still, I will be first to admit it was dumb. But, made sense at the time. I did make a mental note to use a handgun for that type of hunting next time. A holstered pistol is a better choice and is plenty enough gun to kill a hog. The largest hog killed that day was a 420lb boar shot with a 45acp 230g HP. A one shot kill that dropped it in its tracks. Mine was 325lb and did run a short distance.

Slightly different walking to a deer stand in usa....unless some big bears around ....and having been on boar shoots in Europe...and having seen videos of people in usa trying to sort out pigs with a handgun and getting nicely sliced up ....i would stick with a rifle....and loaded ....

 

[Longwalker]

I suspect the 2 main reasons "African Carry" was ever used in the first place are:
1. An old style gun bearer carrying the rifle so that it was easily accessible to the shooter.
2. A Ph who prefers to not use a sling but needs to use binoculars. There is no other practical way to hold a rifle without a sling and also use binoculars
All the rest is "money see monkey do" - a lot of clients watch too many videos and want to fit in with the fashionable crowd. Safety is an afterthought.
I find a sling the most convenient and safest way to carry. I take my sling off and carry in both hands at the ready if I know we are in the presence of dangerous game. There is no better way to control muzzle or shoot quickly if needed.
One more good reason to carry a rifle muzzle down & slung over the off side shoulder is that the barrel doesn't reflect sun light that may spook game.

 

[Yukontom]

I suspect the 2 main reasons "African Carry" was ever used in the first place are:
1. An old style gun bearer carrying the rifle so that it was easily accessible to the shooter.
2. A Ph who prefers to not use a sling but needs to use binoculars. There is no other practical way to hold a rifle without a sling and also use binoculars
All the rest is "money see monkey do" - a lot of clients watch too many videos and want to fit in with the fashionable crowd. Safety is an afterthought.
I find a sling the most convenient and safest way to carry. I take my sling off and carry in both hands at the ready if I know we are in the presence of dangerous game. There is no better way to control muzzle or shoot quickly if needed.
One more good reason to carry a rifle muzzle down & slung over the off side shoulder is that the barrel doesn't reflect sun light that may spook game.

I would also suggest a #3 Reason, mainly in the context of large bore rifles for dangerous game:
They simply are heavy, often in the range of 10 to 11 pounds. Most of us are not weight lifters and carrying that in your hands for several hours at a time gets tiresome, so laying the rifle across a shoulder can be more restful and have you more ready when needed. A sling over the shoulder helps also but again may not be best on a double rifle or in thick stuff for DG.
I am taking a 100 year old double in 450-400 Nitro in August for Buffalo and Hippo that weighs about 10-1/2Lbs and I have started working out with weights to help make it easier to carry.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I would also suggest a #3 Reason, mainly in the context of large bore rifles for dangerous game:
They simply are heavy, often in the range of 10 to 11 pounds. Most of us are not weight lifters and carrying that in your hands for several hours at a time gets tiresome, so laying the rifle across a shoulder can be more restful and have you more ready when needed. A sling over the shoulder helps also but again may not be best on a double rifle or in thick stuff for DG.
I am taking a 100 year old double in 450-400 Nitro in August for Buffalo and Hippo that weighs about 10-1/2Lbs and I have started working out with weights to help make it easier to carry.

More important than weight is balance. I can carry my 10 lb (unloaded) 404 Mauser 98 all day relatively easily and I'm no body builder. But that gun is balanced perfectly just ahead of the floorplate. Two days in August I hunted buffalo all day and forgot the sling on my plains game 30-06. No problem.