Questions about the African Carry and Others

[Tanks]

I often dont understand the need to have a loaded rifle when starting out from the truck.....plenty time to load before shot is taken.
...

Noise carries. Not to mention what one could run into around the corner.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Someone asked about the AR15/M16 safety. It merely blocks the trigger mechanism. The firing pin is not blocked and does not even have a spring on it. It is free to slide fore and aft at will. I theory it could slam fire if dropped hard on its muzzle but in practice I have never heard of that happening. The AK47 is similar. However, no matter how "Bank Vault" secure any rifle safety may or may not be, it is still a mechanical device that can get fouled by dirt, dust, ice, grease or other gunk and can fail. It can get snagged on clothing, or vines, etc and be moved off-safe. Some easier than others. That is the paramount reason for never pointing your muzzle at other people or yourself, even when you know the gun is not loaded. I agree that African carry of a slingless heavy double rifle is a comfortable method and that a careful hunter should be able to avoid muzzle sweeping his hunting partners. But, I still fail to see how it is a better method to one of the sling methods and all the BS about snagging the triggers, the sling or the safety catches on the thorns and vines is just that much crap. That is why you do not want the guns pointed at other people. Because you might snag something on the safety and then the trigger. Because you might forget it was loaded when you get back to the truck, etc. $h!t happens. Plan for the worst and pray for the best. Generally, I leave my chamber empty when trekking to/from hunting areas. Exceptions being when game is near and the need to take a shot is imminent. But, I do not often hunt where large dangerous predators are present. If I was stalking Kudu but thought a lion, buff or other DG was nearby or could be, I think I would feel better having one up the spout just because.

 

[Zambezi]

It amazes me that some hunters that have a little experience can wax lyrical regarding what is the best idea on walking around with a loaded rifle from the time their toes hit the sand. The need to be locked and loaded. Like you're about to be mauled and gored... that you don't have 2 seconds to cycle and bring to bare.

So you're advocating walking around with a loaded weapon as opposed to African carry as a safer option....

I'm going to type in uppercase for effect:

I CALL BULLSHIT THAT YOU HAVE TO BE LOCKED AND LOADED NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE HUNTING! UNLESS IT IS DG OR A WOUNDED ANIMAL THAT YOU HAVE ALREADY ENGAGED THAT MIGHT REQUIRE A SNAP SHOT.

If you have one up the spout from the time the vehicle stops you're more of a danger to everyone than whatever quarry you're chasing. You only put one up when the quarry is sighted or you are ready to engage.

 

[WAB]

It amazes me that some hunters that have a little experience can wax lyrical regarding what is the best idea on walking around with a loaded rifle from the time their toes hit the sand. The need to be locked and loaded. Like you're about to be mauled and gored... that you don't have 2 seconds to cycle and bring to bare.

So you're advocating walking around with a loaded weapon as opposed to African carry as a safer option....

I'm going to type in uppercase for effect:

I CALL BULLSHIT THAT YOU HAVE TO BE LOCKED AND LOADED NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE HUNTING! UNLESS IT IS DG OR A WOUNDED ANIMAL THAT YOU HAVE ALREADY ENGAGED THAT MIGHT REQUIRE A SNAP SHOT.

If you have one up the spout from the time the vehicle stops you're more of a danger to everyone than whatever quarry you're chasing. You only put one up when the quarry is sighted or you are ready to engage.

You may have more experience in Africa than many of us, but don’t let that lead you to believe that you have more DG experience than many on here. A grizzly charge is every bit as intimidating, and if you think it can’t come unannounced and unprovoked, you haven’t spent enough time in grizzly country. Not every American is a city kid with no real bush experience. African hunting is pretty cushy by comparison to the Alaskan wilderness.

As to being unloaded in DG country, take a read of our 2017 hunt report in the Save. I personally will be loaded.

 

[Velo Dog]

Fellow Hunters,

My father was not a hunter but a decent enough man to make sure that when I took an interest in it, I was properly introduced to hunting.
Right away, he forged safe mindset / safe gun handling into my little brain.
Beginning around age 9 or 10, when I received an air rifle for Christmas, I quote him from that specific day:

“If I ever see you doing anything wrong with your gun, especially pointing it at another person, even accidentally, I will make you a neck tie out of that thing” !

In high school, I recall hearing of another teenager from a neighboring school, having been accidentally shot in the face and thereby horribly and permanently disfigured by another boy, carrying a .410 shotgun at port arms, as they walked through an open field, beside each other.
I don’t know how the shooter managed to fire his .410 but, I suspect that mean old
Mister Finger was messing around with the gas pedal, as the boys walked along.

Obviously the shooter, prior to shooting his friend’s face half off, did not keep his finger away from the trigger when not actually aiming at an intended target.
Neither was he keeping his muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times, at all costs.
By my way of thinking, this was not an “accidental discharge”, it was a “reckless discharge”.

It is therefore and to this day, that I agree with those who say the “Africa Carry” is no more dangerous and no more safe than the individual bloke who is carrying the gun.
A safe hunter will not ever sweep another person with his / her muzzle, no matter the method of carry.
That goes well with the notion of, the very best of the best “safety catch” mechanisms ever devised, remains located slap bang directly between our ears.

Meanwhile, here in the hills above Anchorage Alaska, we have now received about 3 feet of snow in 72 hours and it’s still snowing steadily.
So we’re “snowed in” for awhile.
That means lucky you guys, one more story (sorry / not sorry).

When I was a Deputy Sheriff in Central California, I remember vividly a case wherein a duck hunter, was gearing up to walk from his truck, to his favorite pond.
He laid his loaded, 12 bore Model 870 Remington on the ground to free up both hands.
His very excited Labrador Retriever was running all about and stepped on the trigger group of the gun.

Evidently, the dog’s big muddy paw, in one step, both popped the “safety” button to the go position and simultaneously mashed the trigger back.
This resulted in the dog shooting his master in the feet, from less than sword fighting distance from the muzzle.
What a bloody mess, obviously extremely painful as well.

I expect all would agree (especially the hot footin’ duck hunter himself) that he had made a reckless decision to chamber a round, prior to being settled in beside the duck pond.
And, what’s this nonsense of laying your firearm down, with the muzzle pointed toward any person, including one’s self ?
At least he himself was seriously injured for his reckless actions and not some other person.

Too bad my father wasn’t there for either of the above tragic shots fired.
It would’ve been priceless to watch him make neckties on those guys, out of their shotguns.

Beginning in my childhood with my father’s aforementioned guidance plus, that having been re-affirmed throughout my life’s observations and experiences, I get real difficult to get along with right away, when I see reckless, careless or even just a general devil-may-care attitude and body language, from anyone in possession of a firearm.

Yours truly does not chamber a round until the PH signals me to do so, typically as we prepare to close with a specific animal, sometimes for other reasons as well.
Even with an empty chamber, I carry long guns while hunting in various ways.
This is including but not limited to, the dreaded upon my shoulder “African Carry”, as circumstances dictate.

No matter my method of carry, you can bet your last buck that I am always and forever more than paranoid about where my muzzle is, every split second that I am in possession of any firearm, loaded or empty.
I maintain that, we should always treat every firearm as if it is loaded and ready to fire, at all times.

As a side note on muzzle awareness:
There are even times when pointing one’s muzzle at the ground is not safe at all, due to the abundance of large stones about.
Also, if stones are present on the surface, likely there are plenty of them also unseen, just below the soft surface.

Well anyway blah blah blah.

Do stay safe,
Velo Dog.

 

[Zambezi]

You may have more experience in Africa than many of us, but don’t let that lead you to believe that you have more DG experience than many on here. A grizzly charge is every bit as intimidating, and if you think it can’t come unannounced and unprovoked, you haven’t spent enough time in grizzly country. Not every American is a city kid with no real bush experience. African hunting is pretty cushy by comparison to the Alaskan wilderness.

As to being unloaded in DG country, take a read of our 2017 hunt report in the Save. I personally will be loaded.

I have zero DG experience and I can imagine bears are buggers to be around!
That said I think a summation of my experience in the bush with regards to this thread and my feelings on African carry and rifle handling in the African bush is in order.

• I have only guided non DG but in DG environs.
• Getting out of the vehicle and putting one up the spout is a dangerous practice when you haven't even engaged the quarry. A WEAPON WITH NO CHAMBERED ROUND IS A "SAFE" WEAPON.
• The percentage chance of a vine or tree snag is virtually the same whether at port or Africa carry and I would say it virtually NEVER happens. Who here has ACTUALLY been a party to that either their own weapon or actually SEEN the snag producing a discharge? 1, 2... zero?
• Do 99% of AD/ND occur from anything else except finger on the trigger? African carry makes it impossible to have your finger within 10-12 inches from the trigger. Fact.
• The notions put forward regarding faulty rifles, UFO's, etc need not be discussed, they shouldn't occur or be in the field.
• Negligence is negligence no matter the carry. Muzzle safety is paramount no matter the carry.
• The idea that you have to be locked and loaded from the outset hunting DG in Africa is BS and dangerous. Maybe hunting tiger in the jungles of India or bear in confined spaces in the Americas may hold some truth but in Africa you generally have time to cycle your bolt etc and shoulder your rifle.
• Lastly more people have been wounded by people carrying at port than African carry. Period. Fact. Non-negotiable. ( And this has nothing to do with any percentage of people carrying at port v African carry.)
• If your finger is near or on the trigger you are more likely able to discharge your weapon.

 

[IvW]

It appears you are living in the dream world. There are a number of PHs who have experienced unprovoked charges in DG areas. I cannot think of one though who has shot himself in the balls as you suggest though or even a client on a DG hunt. Most PHs that carry rifle African style continue holding the rifle that way while glassing. Only a select few hunters would lean a loaded rifle against themselves as you suggest.

So are you seems like you are stalking my posts and then as usual make strange comments....
I never said the PH should not load up......
Some do it right many dont.....clients included....sometimes they stop and then the rigle butt goes to ground and the hands go on top of the loaded rifles barrels...or lean against the body....you never seen that?? Strange

 

[375Fox]

So are you seems like you are stalking my posts and then as usual make strange comments....
I never said the PH should not load up......
Some do it right many dont.....clients included....sometimes they stop and then the rigle butt goes to ground and the hands go on top of the loaded rifles barrels...or lean against the body....you never seen that?? Strange

When you write BS and use the PH persona you’ve created to try and give it credibility I think it needs called out.

 

[IvW]

When you write BS and use the PH persona you’ve created to try and give it credibility I think it needs called out.

BS PH persona created....my oh my....you are a real treat.....43...

 

[Hunting Hitman]

I cannot find the name of my sling but I purchased it around 8 years ago. It allows you to carry the double rifle with the barrel pointing down. Either in front of you or as I prefer behind you…this allows your rifle to be protected as you plow through the brush.
When we get closer to the animals I transition the double to my hands and proceed accordingly.
I normally take the sling off the rifle for pictures but here is one I found with it on.

HH

 

[Sideshow]

Someone asked about the AR15/M16 safety. It merely blocks the trigger mechanism. The firing pin is not blocked and does not even have a spring on it. It is free to slide fore and aft at will. I theory it could slam fire if dropped hard on its muzzle but in practice I have never heard of that happening. The AK47 is similar. However, no matter how "Bank Vault" secure any rifle safety may or may not be, it is still a mechanical device that can get fouled by dirt, dust, ice, grease or other gunk and can fail. It can get snagged on clothing, or vines, etc and be moved off-safe. Some easier than others. That is the paramount reason for never pointing your muzzle at other people or yourself, even when you know the gun is not loaded. I agree that African carry of a slingless heavy double rifle is a comfortable method and that a careful hunter should be able to avoid muzzle sweeping his hunting partners. But, I still fail to see how it is a better method to one of the sling methods and all the BS about snagging the triggers, the sling or the safety catches on the thorns and vines is just that much crap. That is why you do not want the guns pointed at other people. Because you might snag something on the safety and then the trigger. Because you might forget it was loaded when you get back to the truck, etc. $h!t happens. Plan for the worst and pray for the best. Generally, I leave my chamber empty when trekking to/from hunting areas. Exceptions being when game is near and the need to take a shot is imminent. But, I do not often hunt where large dangerous predators are present. If I was stalking Kudu but thought a lion, buff or other DG was nearby or could be, I think I would feel better having one up the spout just because.

Yep that’s about it! Full stop. They are not called DG because they came out of the movie.s…… simples because they will scribble you and all that are standing in their way! If your not prepared for that then don’t go after them!
This is the main point! It’s hunting DG not shooting! You have to take/own the situation that is around you! If not then don’t do it!
I was told by a guide of 12 years on a walk to some Iron age caves in the Vigunga mountains G: Are you married and how old are you? A: No, not married, 29 “ Well you had better hurry before you expire“!

We are all people, Own your surroundings stand up and be accountable, it’s not a video game there’s no second chance. No do over! Just the here and now! Africans living in central africa, well order stand this.

I’m very sure that they invented the shrug…..you get it wrong you get scribbled, rubbed out!
Dont get me wrong im not say ing be unsafe. By all that is in your power take control of what is around you in the moment that is the here and now! That is the why ”of“what “you” are doing there, that is the essence of why you are hunting DG. Be in control.
Is that not why we do this to live In that moment?

To take control an be in that momen?

 

[steve white]

If there's no round in the chamber, I guess you can carry any way you want. I just prefer to have a trained protocol to cover those times when I have one in the chamber after all.

 

[Woodcarver]

Interesting thread. I've not been to Africa, yet. But having carried a rifle or shotgun around for 50+ years, and having the 10 Commandments of Firearm Safety drilled in to me since I was about 4, muzzle control is what I find to be the most important, and sometimes the hardest, to always be cognizant of. Watching a lot of hunt videos, and not just of African hunts, I see a fair number of times where others in a group get swept by somebody, regardless of how the rifle is being carried. It happens, doesn't make it right. It does seem to occur more with the African carry.
I suspect the African carry was/is primarily to keep the rifle up out of the thickest of the grasses and brush as much as easing the weight over miles of walking. In the timber that I'm usually in, it doesn't work so well. I've tried it while antelope hunting, but find it less comfortable than a sling, and never felt like I had as good of control over the rifle compared to the sling. It does steady up the binos well when glassing.
After much experimenting, lots of different slings, and a few stock dings later, I've found what someone referenced as the Rhodesian carry (weak side, muzzle down) works best for me. It allows total control over where the muzzle is pointing, all the time. Including some pretty hard falls. Only once did a fall require clearing the muzzle of debris. My barrel doesn't get hung in low branches either.
While speed of the shot is not usually an issue for me, quiet is. Having to work the bolt or lever when you're only 20-50 yards from an elk or muley in silent timber will usually result in watching the south end of a north bound animal, so I always carry with a loaded chamber, on safe. In a group, I prefer to see rifles slung; I see fewer muzzles that way.

 

[Philip Glass]

It is hard to understand a true DG scenario until you've been here. For most people a sling is best for most any hunt. It is familiar and safe. I use one regularly. In most hunting scenarios an unloaded chamber is the best idea for safety. What can Change these aforementioned hunting practices is hunting dangerous game. For instance, Hunting the wilds of Zimbabwe requires that everyone's rifle be loaded due to the dangerous game that inhabit the area. Int the very dense Jess a sling can be a hindrance. We can also simply take the sling off if need be yet have it handy for a long walk home.
Another note is that the "African carry" will wear your arms and hands out quickly. I developed an idea to add to my gym routine before hunts To help with this. I got a softball sized medicine ball which was maybe 2lbs. I take the ball and drop it and catch it in the air over and over. Alternating hands, I do this hundreds of times on each workout. The first safari after implementing this exercise was quite amazing. My .470 Double felt like a kids .22!
I know, I need to produce another video to better explain.

 

[steve white]

Interesting thread. I've not been to Africa, yet. But having carried a rifle or shotgun around for 50+ years, and having the 10 Commandments of Firearm Safety drilled in to me since I was about 4, muzzle control is what I find to be the most important, and sometimes the hardest, to always be cognizant of. Watching a lot of hunt videos, and not just of African hunts, I see a fair number of times where others in a group get swept by somebody, regardless of how the rifle is being carried. It happens, doesn't make it right. It does seem to occur more with the African carry.
I suspect the African carry was/is primarily to keep the rifle up out of the thickest of the grasses and brush as much as easing the weight over miles of walking. In the timber that I'm usually in, it doesn't work so well. I've tried it while antelope hunting, but find it less comfortable than a sling, and never felt like I had as good of control over the rifle compared to the sling. It does steady up the binos well when glassing.
After much experimenting, lots of different slings, and a few stock dings later, I've found what someone referenced as the Rhodesian carry (weak side, muzzle down) works best for me. It allows total control over where the muzzle is pointing, all the time. Including some pretty hard falls. Only once did a fall require clearing the muzzle of debris. My barrel doesn't get hung in low branches either.
While speed of the shot is not usually an issue for me, quiet is. Having to work the bolt or lever when you're only 20-50 yards from an elk or muley in silent timber will usually result in watching the south end of a north bound animal, so I always carry with a loaded chamber, on safe. In a group, I prefer to see rifles slung; I see fewer muzzles that way.

I, too, like the Rhodesian carry but with one caveat....it makes it SO easy for brush to snag the bolt handle knob and open the action--have had that happen several times since a Mannlicher Schoenauer is so slick and easy to open. The rifle, scope side down means that the handle is turned forwards and acts like a brush hook.

 

[IvW]

I, too, like the Rhodesian carry but with one caveat....it makes it SO easy for brush to snag the bolt handle knob and open the action--have had that happen several times since a Mannlicher Schoenauer is so slick and easy to open. The rifle, scope side down means that the handle is turned forwards and acts like a brush hook.

Not possible if your rifle has a safety that locks the bolt......

 

[IvW]

For instance, Hunting the wilds of Zimbabwe requires that everyone's rifle be loaded due to the dangerous game that inhabit the area.

Why would that be a requirement? Especially when the visting hunter is on his firat dg safari?
Typically you start off on tracks and follow for hours.....more often than not you make no contact...plenty of time to chamber a round when you start getting close....PH and trackers will know ezactly when this will be.

If you bump into something that is not being tracked it is the ph responsibiliyy to deal with the situation.....if the visiting hunter cannot chamber a round when that occurs they probably should not be hunting dg.....

After a built up relationship with a revisiting vlient it may be different. ..

 

[Red Leg]

Not possible if your rifle has a safety that locks the bolt......

Exactly. That includes cocking mechanisms like the R8.

 

[IvW]

100% but for cocking type safeties I would still expect the person carrying said firearm to employ the pointing of the muzzle rule as for any other firearm.....

 

[Tanks]

...
Typically you start off on tracks and follow for hours.....more often than not you make no contact...plenty of time to chamber a round when you start getting close....PH and trackers will know ezactly when this will be.
...

On my last elephant hunt, less than a month ago we knew we were getting close when we could hear them. That also means that they could hear us. Slamming a double close makes noise.

Also, I have yet to be on a hunt anywhere where the PH did not direct me to load up once we got out of the truck. Of course, I have not hunted RSA game farms, so procedures might be different in your neck of the woods.