Politics

[Brent in Az]

Much to tbe chagrin of the anti-Trumpers, Lara Trump, and Michael Whately, were nominated as the new leaders of the RNC.
The movement is growing.

 

[Red Leg]

So all kids who are ADD/ADHD or even Autism come from homes that didn't discipline? Hmmm, that seems like big wide paintbrush. And it's easier to drug them? You should do your usual research on this one and go study the side effects of the drugs used and see just how many side effects there are with those drugs on many who take them and how that makes things so much easier for both child and parent.

Yah, ask me how I know. Sorry Joe, you're just little off on this one and hitting a nerve.

I conflated something I believe about another issue into what you said. I was wrong doing that. Certainly with respect to autism. What I do believe is that parents and most school system are relying far more on behavior modification drugs like Methyphenidiates rather than what we would have called simple discipline a generation or two ago. Today, even the best of teachers and administrators have limited means to enforce discipline. Drug intervention seems to be the most common alternative.

Are there children that benefit from this approach? I have no doubt that there are. But I am equally convinced that there are children who are unnecessarily diagnosed and medicated as an alternative to parenting. That too represents an observation from our extended family.

 

[bob meadows]

I tend to view health care advice from "medical professionals" who make a LOT of money from prescribing drugs from large companies like I do "national security advice" from military and defense industry big-shots who have their entire lives vested in the foreverwar industry.
Do they know more than I do about the subject at hand? Yes, they do.
Do they have a vested interest in lying to me about the best course of action? Quite probably.
So what to do. I hear their opinion, ask myself "What do they gain if I act as they urge?" and proceed as seems best to me.

if someone has something to gain, a vested interest then anything they say is suspect. you said it very well. I really get tired of the expurts telling me , what is best for me.....bob

 

[Tanks]

if someone has something to gain, a vested interest then anything they say is suspect. you said it very well. I really get tired of the expurts telling me , what is best for me.....bob

Well, in every profession people have something to gain. Nothing in the world is free and there is a cost. Just about every one of our engineering projects are sole sourced to us. That is because we take pride in our work and deliver for our clients. There are a huge number of people out there that do the same.

Not everyone is out to get you.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I only saw a small part of an interview with Joe Rogan and RFK Jr, and RFK was talking about vaccines. The part I caught he said look there weren't hardly any food allergies in the 60s and 70s but it has or at least seems become more pervelent as we have mandated more vaccines. He said that he is not sure that there is correlation but why can't we ask the question and look into. That his problem with vaccines was the same with questioning the science, we should be allowed to be skeptical and ask questions.

He came across as pretty reasonable, even if I didn't agree with everything he was saying.

 

[sestoppelman]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1766143631176421376

Worth a look if the link works

Much of what he says here is absolutely and provably true. I know his approach is often panned and I dont always agree with him either.
But I do agree with most of what he says here.

 

[bob meadows]

Well, in every profession people have something to gain. Nothing in the world is free and there is a cost. Just about every one of our engineering projects are sole sourced to us. That is because we take pride in our work and deliver for our clients. There are a huge number of people out there that do the same.

Not everyone is out to get you.

of course you are right. I was speaking more in the context of .gov and big pharma......and yes they have both proven that they are more interested in their own gain then ours...in my opinion...bob

 

[fourfive8]

The medical profession and pharma have no interest in promoting healthy people. They are vested in the ill and injured. Government and private-government interests have no interest in less government or less power. They are vested in more government, power and control.

 

[sestoppelman]

The medical profession and pharma have no interest in promoting healthy people. They are vested in the ill and injured. Government and private-government interests have no interest in less government or less power. They are vested in more government, power and control.

Exactly! I nearly flipped a couple weeks ago when a reporter asked Biden if he could do more on the border.

"I've done all I can do, give me more POWER", he says. Screw that! Too much power already in the hands of that lying idiot!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I conflated something I believe about another issue into what you said. I was wrong doing that. Certainly with respect to autism. What I do believe is that parents and most school system are relying far more on behavior modification drugs like Methyphenidiates rather than what we would have called simple discipline a generation or two ago. Today, even the best of teachers and administrators have limited means to enforce discipline. Drug intervention seems to be the most common alternative.

Are there children that benefit from this approach? I have no doubt that there are. But I am equally convinced that there are children who are unnecessarily diagnosed and medicated as an alternative to parenting. That too represents an observation from our extended family.

You made a pretty broad statement in your earlier post. And it's the kind of thing I've heard/read numerous times (not from you) over the years. Because it was so broad, it clearly told me you've not had the experience of raising children that are actually diagnosed correctly with ADHD. Trust me, it's not fun for them nor their parents. And it has not a damn thing to do with a lack of discipline. So forgive me for taking it personally. For me it's not a whole lot different than when someone makes disparaging remarks about the DoD or their contractors without the experience to back up the remarks and how that trips your trigger.

Regarding poor disciplined children and parents looking for chemistry to fix the problem. I don't doubt that it occurs, but I haven't the numbers researched to even suggest how broad a problem that is. In regards to treating that problem with an ADHD med IMO it will only make matters worse, not better.

A little insight into kids with ADHD that I've garnered. I don't consider myself an expert, but having known other parents with ADHD kids, my experiences are similar to theirs.

A person with ADHD has a system that just doesn't work like yours and mine. It's quite the opposite. They're naturally wired up, they have a tough time focusing on any random task which doesn't stimulate their senses the way they want/need. So book learning....forget about it.

In the case with my older son, anythings sports or music and he is laser focused. And I don't just mean because he likes it, he'll do it, I mean he is focused on every aspect. I truly hope he will coach kids someday as he's a likable young man now and he's got the knowledge as well as playing experience. At the moment he's trying to make a go of it in music and seems to be slowly moving up in that world, we'll see. Having said that, he seems to have figured out how to live with ADHD and actually loves to learn from the books now.

In the case with my younger son, same issue when it came to the books. He just had no use for it. What he could laser focus on was anything to do with using his hands. This settles him down and he is great at figuring out problems using his brain while also using his hands. So after HS he went to trade school to be an HVAC tech and is great at it. It's both mechanical and electrical, and everything is a new problem that he loves to solve with both his brain and his hands.

Now back to that part about their systems working differently than ours, and why ADHD meds for someone who isn't is a disaster waiting to happen. For someone who is ADHD, the H stating for hyperactive, you would think that the treatment would be some sort of sedative to calm them down. It's not. The fact is Adderall as well as the others like it are stimulants.

Doesn't make sense does it? Why give a stimulant to someone already struggling to focus due to being hyperactive. Answer is because they're different for whatever reason. Most who read this and drink coffee in the morning do so to kick start their system and to wake up. Coffee or any other stimulant for my kids serves to calm them down so they can focus

So what happens if you give someone who isn't ADHD one of these meds? Basically the same thing as putting them on an amphetamine, you're not calming them down, you're doing the opposite. It's one reason Adderall is abused by some. They use it like a big giant cup of coffee to kick their brains into motion and also to lose weight.

So what about my son's experience with the meds. Older son wasn't diagnosed until after HS. He took the meds for a brief period time but then stopped as he didn't like what he was reading about long term effects.

My younger son was finishing junior HS when he was diagnosed. Let me tell you that at first Adderall appeared to be a God send. He was so much happier. He could focus on his school work and with that his self esteem soared. That lasted for about 3 months. That's when the side effects started kicking in. In short order he was more miserable at this point using the med than when he wasn't. And we had to take him off of it. I'll let you do your own research on that if you're interested.

But the ADHD remained, and HS years were a struggle at school and at home. I say all of this having lived it as a parent, one who questioned along with my wife what we were doing wrong. We certainly caused this somehow. No, no we didn't. This was just how our kids were and it was hard for them and us. They're both doing much better now as young adults and fortunately they've figured out now that I actually wasn't the biggest asshole on the planet when they were younger and I know stuff they don't. Having said that, I'm quite certain despite all of the conversations I've had with them about ADHD, that I truly still don't know what it is like to be them.

So what caused all of this? Why is ADD/ADHD so much more prevalent now. Is it really just lazy parents who turn to a pill to make life easier, I'd like to have the data that supports that. My experience says that may be the case with some, but I don't believe it's the majority of the time. Back to the simple reason that the meds to treat ADHD will not make the bad behavior of a non-ADHD kid better, likely only worse.

Perhaps @rookhawk is on to something about Big Pharma and doctors.

 

[sestoppelman]

You made a pretty broad statement in your earlier post. And it's the kind of thing I've heard/read numerous times (not from you) over the years. Because it was so broad, it clearly told me you've not had the experience of raising children that are actually diagnosed correctly with ADHD. Trust me, it's not fun for them nor their parents. And it has not a damn thing to do with a lack of discipline. So forgive me for taking it personally. For me it's not a whole lot different than when someone makes disparaging remarks about the DoD or their contractors without the experience to back up the remarks and how that trips your trigger.

Regarding poor disciplined children and parents looking for chemistry to fix the problem. I don't doubt that it occurs, but I haven't the numbers researched to even suggest how broad a problem that is. In regards to treating that problem with an ADHD med IMO it will only make matters worse, not better.

A little insight into kids with ADHD that I've garnered. I don't consider myself an expert, but having known other parents with ADHD kids, my experiences are similar to theirs.

A person with ADHD has a system that just doesn't work like yours and mine. It's quite the opposite. They're naturally wired up, they have a tough time focusing on any random task which doesn't stimulate their senses the way they want/need. So book learning....forget about it.

In the case with my older son, anythings sports or music and he is laser focused. And I don't just mean because he likes it, he'll do it, I mean he is focused on every aspect. I truly hope he will coach kids someday as he's a likable young man now and he's got the knowledge as well as playing experience. At the moment he's trying to make a go of it in music and seems to be slowly moving up in that world, we'll see. Having said that, he seems to have figured out how to live with ADHD and actually loves to learn from the books now.

In the case with my younger son, same issue when it came to the books. He just had no use for it. What he could laser focus on was anything to do with using his hands. This settles him down and he is great at figuring out problems using his brain while also using his hands. So after HS he went to trade school to be an HVAC tech and is great at it. It's both mechanical and electrical, and everything is a new problem that he loves to solve with both his brain and his hands.

Now back to that part about their systems working differently than ours, and why ADHD meds for someone who isn't is a disaster waiting to happen. For someone who is ADHD, the H stating for hyperactive, you would think that the treatment would be some sort of sedative to calm them down. It's not. The fact is Adderall as well as the others like it are stimulants.

Doesn't make sense does it? Why give a stimulant to someone already struggling to focus due to being hyperactive. Answer is because they're different for whatever reason. Most who read this and drink coffee in the morning do so to kick start their system and to wake up. Coffee or any other stimulant for my kids serves to calm them down so they can focus

So what happens if you give someone who isn't ADHD one of these meds? Basically the same thing as putting them on an amphetamine, you're not calming them down, you're doing the opposite. It's one reason Adderall is abused by some. They use it like a big giant cup of coffee to kick their brains into motion and also to lose weight.

So what about my son's experience with the meds. Older son wasn't diagnosed until after HS. He took the meds for a brief period time but then stopped as he didn't like what he was reading about long term effects.

My younger son was finishing junior HS when he was diagnosed. Let me tell you that at first Adderall appeared to be a God send. He was so much happier. He could focus on his school work and with that his self esteem soared. That lasted for about 3 months. That's when the side effects started kicking in. In short order he was more miserable at this point using the med than when he wasn't. And we had to take him off of it. I'll let you do your own research on that if you're interested.

But the ADHD remained, and HS years were a struggle at school and at home. I say all of this having lived it as a parent, one who questioned along with my wife what we were doing wrong. We certainly caused this somehow. No, no we didn't. This was just how our kids were and it was hard for them and us. They're both doing much better now as young adults and fortunately they've figured out now that I actually wasn't the biggest asshole on the planet when they were younger and I know stuff they don't. Having said that, I'm quite certain despite all of the conversations I've had with them about ADHD, that I truly still don't know what it is like to be them.

So what caused all of this? Why is ADD/ADHD so much more prevalent now. Is it really just lazy parents who turn to a pill to make life easier, I'd like to have the data that supports that. My experience says that may be the case with some, but I don't believe it's the majority of the time. Back to the simple reason that the meds to treat ADHD will not make the bad behavior of a non-ADHD kid better, likely only worse.

Perhaps @rookhawk is on to something about Big Pharma and doctors.

I am glad to hear that your sons are doing better and hope it continues.

My sons roommate has also faced this for some years and has been on and off Adderall himself. Its a struggle.

 

[K-man]

I can only relate to our family's own experience raising our grandchildren. After our oldest one turned about 4 and was having difficulty relating and behaving around other children, his parents decided to remove artificial dyes from his diet. The change was fairly dramatic and constant. Then after our middle granddaughter showed some similar symptoms, they eliminated artificial dyes for the whole family. It took only a small adjustment for us to watch their diet at our home, but after 5-6 years it certainly has been a positive change. At the time it seemed medicine was going to be the answer, for us I'm glad it wasn't the answer.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I am glad to hear that your sons are doing better and hope it continues.

My sons roommate has also faced this for some years and has been on and off Adderall himself. Its a struggle.

Yah, it took awhile for my older son to come around. My brother and his wife told me just wait until he's 25. And I'll be turned but almost to that exact day was a marked change in him.

The interesting part of this is like me being 5 years younger than my only brother, so is my youngest. And like me, he was smart enough to learn from big bro's mistakes....mostly anyway. I was stupid enough to challenge my mother, who if she were alive today would be 91 and would give my face a smack even now if I smarted off to her, all 5' 2" and 100lbs of pure Irish mad. But screw with dad, not a freaking chance. Big brother was dumb enough to do that...... and as they say......he FAFO.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I can only relate to our family's own experience raising our grandchildren. After our oldest one turned about 4 and was having difficulty relating and behaving around other children, his parents decided to remove artificial dyes from his diet. The change was fairly dramatic and constant. Then after our middle granddaughter showed some similar symptoms, they eliminated artificial dyes for the whole family. It took only a small adjustment for us to watch their diet at our home, but after 5-6 years it certainly has been a positive change. At the time it seemed medicine was going to be the answer, for us I'm glad it wasn't the answer.

The think is Kevin from what I've seen is that bad behavior and ADHD don't necessarily go hand in hand. I think the bad behavior comes in because the kids know they're different than others. That beats on them mentally and that may manifest itself in bad behavior, for other kids it shows in other ways.

 

[K-man]

The think is Kevin from what I've seen is that bad behavior and ADHD don't necessarily go hand in hand. I think the bad behavior comes in because the kids know they're different than others. That beats on them mentally and that may manifest itself in bad behavior, for other kids it shows in other ways.

Agree completely. I believe many educators are ill-equipped or trained to handle behavioral issues in a classroom setting, and the easiest answer is medicine. These kids are smart and understand the behavior is not acceptable but are sometimes unable to make changes. Kudos to any parent who raises kids that are functional in today's society. Hell, I probably would have been diagnosed if I had been born 40 yrs later. I was bored in school because most classes didn't challenge me.

 

[Brent in Az]

CIA Swamp slime

 

[Red Leg]

You made a pretty broad statement in your earlier post. And it's the kind of thing I've heard/read numerous times (not from you) over the years. Because it was so broad, it clearly told me you've not had the experience of raising children that are actually diagnosed correctly with ADHD. Trust me, it's not fun for them nor their parents. And it has not a damn thing to do with a lack of discipline. So forgive me for taking it personally. For me it's not a whole lot different than when someone makes disparaging remarks about the DoD or their contractors without the experience to back up the remarks and how that trips your trigger.

Regarding poor disciplined children and parents looking for chemistry to fix the problem. I don't doubt that it occurs, but I haven't the numbers researched to even suggest how broad a problem that is. In regards to treating that problem with an ADHD med IMO it will only make matters worse, not better.

A little insight into kids with ADHD that I've garnered. I don't consider myself an expert, but having known other parents with ADHD kids, my experiences are similar to theirs.

A person with ADHD has a system that just doesn't work like yours and mine. It's quite the opposite. They're naturally wired up, they have a tough time focusing on any random task which doesn't stimulate their senses the way they want/need. So book learning....forget about it.

In the case with my older son, anythings sports or music and he is laser focused. And I don't just mean because he likes it, he'll do it, I mean he is focused on every aspect. I truly hope he will coach kids someday as he's a likable young man now and he's got the knowledge as well as playing experience. At the moment he's trying to make a go of it in music and seems to be slowly moving up in that world, we'll see. Having said that, he seems to have figured out how to live with ADHD and actually loves to learn from the books now.

In the case with my younger son, same issue when it came to the books. He just had no use for it. What he could laser focus on was anything to do with using his hands. This settles him down and he is great at figuring out problems using his brain while also using his hands. So after HS he went to trade school to be an HVAC tech and is great at it. It's both mechanical and electrical, and everything is a new problem that he loves to solve with both his brain and his hands.

Now back to that part about their systems working differently than ours, and why ADHD meds for someone who isn't is a disaster waiting to happen. For someone who is ADHD, the H stating for hyperactive, you would think that the treatment would be some sort of sedative to calm them down. It's not. The fact is Adderall as well as the others like it are stimulants.

Doesn't make sense does it? Why give a stimulant to someone already struggling to focus due to being hyperactive. Answer is because they're different for whatever reason. Most who read this and drink coffee in the morning do so to kick start their system and to wake up. Coffee or any other stimulant for my kids serves to calm them down so they can focus

So what happens if you give someone who isn't ADHD one of these meds? Basically the same thing as putting them on an amphetamine, you're not calming them down, you're doing the opposite. It's one reason Adderall is abused by some. They use it like a big giant cup of coffee to kick their brains into motion and also to lose weight.

So what about my son's experience with the meds. Older son wasn't diagnosed until after HS. He took the meds for a brief period time but then stopped as he didn't like what he was reading about long term effects.

My younger son was finishing junior HS when he was diagnosed. Let me tell you that at first Adderall appeared to be a God send. He was so much happier. He could focus on his school work and with that his self esteem soared. That lasted for about 3 months. That's when the side effects started kicking in. In short order he was more miserable at this point using the med than when he wasn't. And we had to take him off of it. I'll let you do your own research on that if you're interested.

But the ADHD remained, and HS years were a struggle at school and at home. I say all of this having lived it as a parent, one who questioned along with my wife what we were doing wrong. We certainly caused this somehow. No, no we didn't. This was just how our kids were and it was hard for them and us. They're both doing much better now as young adults and fortunately they've figured out now that I actually wasn't the biggest asshole on the planet when they were younger and I know stuff they don't. Having said that, I'm quite certain despite all of the conversations I've had with them about ADHD, that I truly still don't know what it is like to be them.

So what caused all of this? Why is ADD/ADHD so much more prevalent now. Is it really just lazy parents who turn to a pill to make life easier, I'd like to have the data that supports that. My experience says that may be the case with some, but I don't believe it's the majority of the time. Back to the simple reason that the meds to treat ADHD will not make the bad behavior of a non-ADHD kid better, likely only worse.

Perhaps @rookhawk is on to something about Big Pharma and doctors.

I have absolute empathy and compassion for your situation. Nearly 10% of the underage population is diagnosed with ADHD. Obviously, a significant percentage of that group are exactly as you describe. I also believe the majority of our health care providers are dedicated professionals deeply committed to the hypocritic oath.

However, this country also has the highest percentage of children living in one parent homes (23% to 7% worldwide). In almost 50% of the remaining two parent families, both parents work. These environmental factors and a host of others ranging from X boxes to Covid isolation also inevitably affect behavior. My issue and our experience has been rather than explore root causes, the course of least resistance is to all too often to provide a medication.

 

[Red Leg]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1766143631176421376

Worth a look if the link works

Much of what he says here is absolutely and provably true. I know his approach is often panned and I dont always agree with him either.
But I do agree with most of what he says here.

I personally loathe this character so much that I could care less what he has to say on any subject. And he should have paid more for a videographer - this one makes him look like something that escaped from well deserved confinement.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I have absolute empathy and compassion for your situation. Nearly 10% of the underage population is diagnosed with ADHD. Obviously, a significant percentage of that group are exactly as you describe. I also believe the majority of our health care providers are dedicated professionals deeply committed to the hypocritic oath.

However, this country also has the highest percentage of children living in one parent homes (23% to 7% worldwide). In almost 50% of the remaining two parent families, both parents work. These environmental factors and a host of others ranging from X boxes to Covid isolation also inevitably affect behavior. My issue and our experience has been rather than explore root causes, the course of least resistance is to all too often to provide a medication.

Cannot disagree with you at all. One of the factors I'm sure that made things worse for younger son was schooling from home during Covid. That was awful and I don't doubt that he was greatly passed along. Fortunately he has found a skill that makes him happy as well as pretty damn good money for such a young man. And I don't doubt if he gets bored with it he'll find some other skill and be good at that.

One of my favorite memories of him was when he was like 3 or 4 years old and big bro and his friends were all riding their bikes with no training wheels. I was in the garage learning to be a novice Harley mechanic and he was asking me to remove his wheels. I put him off a bit as I was in the middle of something I didn't want to interrupt as I was learning by doing myself. I put him off long enough that he grew tired of waiting and took matters into his own hands. I was so engrossed in what I was doing that I did not see what he was doing and the next thing I know is this little guy is headed down the driveway on his bike with no training wheels. He went into my socket set, found the right size socket for the nuts, put it on a wrench, took them off and then he was off.

I sat there dumbfounded that he figured that out so young from I can only guess watching me wrench on my bike.

 

[SaintPanzer]

To get away from Big Pharma for a moment, this is truly scary: No crime actually committed, just the thought that you may commit a "hate" crime. No jury to establish guilt for the crime you haven't committed yet. Hollywood movie? USSR? PRC? North Korea? No. Canada.

MSN