Obsession with tactical rifles & equipment

[Red Leg]

To add on the ELD-X, I'm not so sure I would use it on anything larger then a mule deer without further testing. I know they can come apart too. I going to give some Barnes LRX 175 and 190 gr a go in my 300 win for the next elk trip.

I haven't used it in Africa (my last PG hunt in Africa was with a .275), but in Texas, where I am less susceptible to nostalgia, the 200 gr ELDX in my R8 wearing .300 Win Mag livery has become my go to nilgai combination. It has great reach, sub-MOA accuracy, and hits with authority. If it will handle Nilgai decisively, I am confident it would easily handle anything in Africa through wildebeest or zebra.

 

[revturbo9967]

I haven't used it in Africa (my last PG hunt in Africa was with a .275), but in Texas, where I am less susceptible to nostalgia, the 200 gr ELDX in my R8 wearing .300 Win Mag livery has become my go to nilgai combination. It has great reach, sub-MOA accuracy, and hits with authority. If it will handle Nilgai decisively, I am confident it would easily handle anything in Africa through wildebeest or zebra.

Thanks for the input. They fly very well in the 2 rifles I’ve tried them in, but have only 2 kills with them. Unfortunately, here in Connecticut rifle hunting is far and few between and shots are usually under 75 yards, so my experience is limited

 

[sureshot375]

I don’t understand the hate for the AR. They are versatile, affordable, and fun.

It is also what the 2nd amendment is really about. Far too many hunters are willing to budge on their second amendment rights.

 

[John Wasmuth]

I don’t understand the hate for the AR. They are versatile, affordable, and fun.

It is also what the 2nd amendment is really about. Far too many hunters are willing to budge on their second amendment rights.

The attitude is “they don’t want to take my sporting/deer hunting/Safari rifle etc etc etc so I’ll only support them taking those evil black rifles, the antis like my kind of rifle…..” and are so ready to state such. What they fail to understood that there are no guns that the antis like, except for the ones the tyrants will kill subjects with…..

 

[mark-hunter]

Its only about PR, nothing else.
If a gun owner is bragging around with his AR, like "it is tactical", it has "CQB sighting system", it has "High capacity mags", "and look at me how cool I look on you tube, in military tactical gear, blasting cans... "
The good percentage of public (who are not gun owners) will not see any need for such charackters and activity in local communitiy. Especially in urban and city areas.
The point is, majority of non-gun owners will see the need for such gear only in hands of police and military, not in hands of their neighbour, and this will be most in urban areas and cities
So this gives a bad PR and bad press

On the other hand:
If you show the same gear in another light: sporting competitions, respectable club membership (with code of ethics, ans match rules), proper language, avoiding military terms, various level of competition, follow sport and civilian dress code. The public will not mind (in most of cases).

The way how I see:

What is the biggest thing that helped gun owners being a gun owner in civil communities - world wide?

It is not 2/a - as in case of US, because other countries do not have 2/a.
It is not self defence - many countries do not have option for self defence gun ownership.
It is not hunting - as many countries have ban on hunt.
It is not historical gun collecting, as in most of countries are museums for that, civilians rarely or much less.

It is the sport!
95% of countries are members of some shooting associations, in most of cases it is ISSF, representing modern olympic disciplines.
And IPSC is catching really fast, as more and more countries are getting their national IPSC organisations. (Since recentely, IPSC is member of GAISF - Global Association of International Sport federations, which is extremely important as recogntion of international sport discipline).

In ISSF the largest shooting organisation of the world, presently there are 162 member states (out of 195 countries in the world), so there is 162 world countries that ultimately (can) compete on modern olympics games.
An no one - gun owner - or not- is disputing any firearm international sporting event, or the gun type use for that.
Nobody is talking about ban on guns used for ISSF sports.
Becasue, sport is generally accepted and recognised civilian activity.
That is real world, and how PR works

Bottom line is this.
Present your AR15, as sport discipline, even better international competition sport, and you will kill all bad press, and bad PR, and you kill public debate. You win political battle.

Present your Ar15, as something to shoot hogs from chopper for fun, and weekend plinking activities in backyard on you tube, in tactical or para military gear - Not all local public, and local (non gun owning community) will accept it or support it. This will create a dispute. Thats fact, becasue we are discussing it now.
And debate will continue for ever, or till eventual ban.

Any gun, in any country can get banned. Thats also fact. But the gun used for international sport shooting event, will very hardly get banned, beacuse each country wants to send their team to international competition.

 

[John Wasmuth]

The anti gun nuts do not care in any way, shape, or form what the design of the firearm is, they just want it and anything like it done away with, multi letter clubs or not. The idea that the antis don’t care if you shoot in a club so they’ll leave you alone is totally false. They don’t care how you’re dressed or how you speak. They only know that there is a firearm involved and they want it done away with. The non-gun owning public isn’t really concerned with the idea of guns, they don’t need them, own them, or use them and since the antis get the lions share of the platform on the topic the non-owners pay more attention to the antis than the gun owners that are Normally well mannered and well spoken and don’t bother anyone. I’m not of the idea that one must belong to any of the ABC gun organizations to own a firearm. Our rights are individual rights, not group rights.

 

[Tanks]

...

Bottom line is this.
Present your AR15, as sport discipline, even better international competition sport, and you will kill all bad press, and bad PR, and you kill public debate. You win political battle.

Present your Ar15, as something to shoot hogs from chopper for fun, and weekend plinking activities in backyard on you tube, in tactical or para military gear - Not all local public, and local (non gun owning community) will accept it or support it. This will create a dispute. Thats fact, becasue we are discussing it now.
And debate will continue for ever, or till eventual ban.

Any gun, in any country can get banned. Thats also fact. But the gun used for international sport shooting event, will very hardly get banned, beacuse each country wants to send their team to international competition.

USPSA, IDPA and IPSC now has a PCC (Pistol caliber carbine) division. At any match, if they wanted, CA authorities could do a felony arrest of every competitor for possession of an "assault rifle" and "high capacity" mags.

Many countries can not field a PCC team unless a member of the military or LEO. Heck, the UK pistol team had to practice in France for Olympics being held in the UK as they would not allow their own team to practice on UK soil.

Antis do not care about team competitions with firearms. Their answer would be to eliminate competitions rather than relax the anti-gun rules.

 

[rookhawk]

Some younger shooters & gun shops seem to have an obsession with tactical fire arms & equipment , cammo chassis
rifles, high capacity magazines. muzzle breaks bipods , night vision gear, military packs & cloathing i have seen kids at the range with muzzle breaks on a 22 RF , & banana mags & tactical scopes, I believe that is the wrong image to be setting & it plays right into the anti gun turds agenda. Or am i out of touch?. The blued steel & walnut hunting rifle seems to be a thing of the past . They even sell lever release 12 g shot guns with pistol grip stocks & detachable box magazines, for duck hunting.

This is my brother in law. His nickname is “milspec”, he worked in the defense industry for awhile.

Milspec has more money than common sense. He went on a gun buying spree of all things tactical. I explained all the cons and told him since he’s family I’d find him some investment grade best guns for a similar budget. No, he wanted the disposable stuff.

a.) 80% of the stuff he bought will be illegal momentarily as it had pistol braces.

b.) the state he is storing it all in prohibits anything over ten rounds in the magazine world.

c.) All the stuff he built himself will shortly require serial numbers and BATF hassles

d.) None if it fed or cycled worth a damn. I spent 15 days over Christmas break helping him get all to function correctly.

e.) he’s not allowed to use these at the local range

f.) he’s not allowed to hunt with them in most states

In the end, he’s down $15,000 on stuff that will be at a pawn shop for $100 in ten years. For less money I offered him a best heym sr30, a griffin & Howe, a dumoulin Abercrombie and Fitch rifle, and a London SxS.

Neat guy, but pretty stereotypical of a millennial/ Gen Y. Pushing 40, no alternative assets, no appreciating assets, no value given to handmade items or items that cannot be built ever again.

Exhibition grade walnut and rust bluing is for old people, polymer semi-auto is better.

 

[YancyW]

I haven't used it in Africa (my last PG hunt in Africa was with a .275), but in Texas, where I am less susceptible to nostalgia, the 200 gr ELDX in my R8 wearing .300 Win Mag livery has become my go to nilgai combination. It has great reach, sub-MOA accuracy, and hits with authority. If it will handle Nilgai decisively, I am confident it would easily handle anything in Africa through wildebeest or zebra.

I used the 220gr ELD-X in a 300PRC last year on my hunt with @KMG Hunting Safaris. I shot a pile of plains game, including an Eland with it. I am very impressed with the bullet, I only recovered a bullet from the Eland, it was far side under the hide, but it was very well shaped and visually the weight retention seemed good to me.

That round in my 300PRC is as accurate as I am able to shoot. There was several baboons that found out last year, one was over 400 yards and a couple more over 300.

 

[YancyW]

This is my brother in law. His nickname is “milspec”, he worked in the defense industry for awhile.

Milspec has more money than common sense. He went on a gun buying spree of all things tactical. I explained all the cons and told him since he’s family I’d find him some investment grade best guns for a similar budget. No, he wanted the disposable stuff.

a.) 80% of the stuff he bought will be illegal momentarily as it had pistol braces.

b.) the state he is storing it all in prohibits anything over ten rounds in the magazine world.

c.) All the stuff he built himself will shortly require serial numbers and BATF hassles

d.) None if it fed or cycled worth a damn. I spent 15 days over Christmas break helping him get all to function correctly.

e.) he’s not allowed to use these at the local range

f.) he’s not allowed to hunt with them in most states

In the end, he’s down $15,000 on stuff that will be at a pawn shop for $100 in ten years. For less money I offered him a best heym sr30, a griffin & Howe, a dumoulin Abercrombie and Fitch rifle, and a London SxS.

Neat guy, but pretty stereotypical of a millennial/ Gen Y. Pushing 40, no alternative assets, no appreciating assets, no value given to handmade items or items that cannot be built ever again.

Exhibition grade walnut and rust bluing is for old people, polymer semi-auto is better.

So it will be legal to pawn it for 100 bucks, but not legal for him to own it.

 

[DG870]

I’ve been following this thread but have hesitated to post anything. I grew up with guns and have hunted my whole life. I lived in a rural area and had local hunting opportunities so I could hunt close to home most of the year without high costs.

About 20 years ago I moved to an urban area for my job that put me 250 miles away from hunting areas. I was lucky because there were gun clubs in the area and I was introduced to competitive shooting and my hunting was reduced to 3 or 4 outings a year. I started with hand guns and bought my first AR15 to shoot 3 gun. I’m 66 years old and retired now and consider myself more of a participant rather than a competitor but I shoot 2 nights a week (USPSA and IDPA) at an indoor range in the winter and monthly 3 gun matches and weekly skeet and trap leagues in the summer.

If I had the choice, I preferred the hunting I was able to do in my earlier years but at my age I know I don’t have too many years left to walk the hills like I used to. Hunting opportunities are shrinking too for the “average” person with land being leased by bigger money than I can compete with so participation in these tactical events is my outlet to be outdoors with friends shooting (even if it’s just targets). You have to adapt and make the most of your opportunities within your means. Sadly that means my hunting rifles sit in the safe most of the year and my ARs and Glocks are used weekly.

As far as PR, I don’t post many pictures or video and don’t have a Facebook or other social media accounts other than this one. As a group, we are being driven underground as evidenced by trophy pictures being taken from this site being used by anti hunting organizations to support their agenda. It’s encouraging that many new gun owners are taking up the sport. Our match numbers are increasing and in spite of ammo shortages. Enough rambling. Things don’t stay the same and I’m a grumpy old man

 

[rookhawk]

So it will be legal to pawn it for 100 bucks, but not legal for him to own it.

All of it will require ongoing modifications and maintenance to remain legal in my opinion. Whether inscribing serials, background checks, replacement of stocks, replacement of flash hiders and installation of compensators in their stead, removal of gas blocks that have bayonet sockets, changing of forward grips, etc.

After all of that, it’s still CNC aluminum and the value of them in legal configuration ongoing will be less and less. There is no shortage of tactical stuff and there is nothing preventing a billion more from rolling off a treadmill.

But how many checkered, skeletonized butt plates will be made this decade? How many case hardened color actioned rifles with quarter ribs will he produced? How many guns with wrap around 28lpi flat top checkering will be cut?

All value is supply and demand. Demand may change, but tactical has the problem of infinite potential supply going against it before we look at any other aspect.

 

[revturbo9967]

Antis do not care about team competitions with firearms. Their answer would be to eliminate competitions rather than relax the anti-gun rules.

Recently I was reminded of this very thing. I was working with a younger engineer at one of our customers and firearm's were brought up in leisure conversation. This individual was against all firearms in general unless it was for police or military and repeated many times "nobody should be able to own a gun for personal use". Another pro gun enthusiast near by piped up and went on to talk about shooting sports in general being a reason why these firearms should be legal for the average Joe. The way they were wording this argument was weak, but all the same I agreed with what the thought process. This reasoning was shot down quickly by the engineer. "Get rid of the shooting sports all together and get rid of guns".

Antis don't care about anything other then being anti gun on every level and nothing will change their mind.

 

[revturbo9967]

I used the 220gr ELD-X in a 300PRC last year on my hunt with @KMG Hunting Safaris. I shot a pile of plains game, including an Eland with it. I am very impressed with the bullet, I only recovered a bullet from the Eland, it was far side under the hide, but it was very well shaped and visually the weight retention seemed good to me.

That round in my 300PRC is as accurate as I am able to shoot. There was several baboons that found out last year, one was over 400 yards and a couple more over 300.

Very nice to hear those results on such a large animal. Would you happen to have pictures of that bullet?

 

[Woodcarver]

I’ve been following this thread but have hesitated to post anything. I grew up with guns and have hunted my whole life. I lived in a rural area and had local hunting opportunities so I could hunt close to home most of the year without high costs.

About 20 years ago I moved to an urban area for my job that put me 250 miles away from hunting areas. I was lucky because there were gun clubs in the area and I was introduced to competitive shooting and my hunting was reduced to 3 or 4 outings a year. I started with hand guns and bought my first AR15 to shoot 3 gun. I’m 66 years old and retired now and consider myself more of a participant rather than a competitor but I shoot 2 nights a week (USPSA and IDPA) at an indoor range in the winter and monthly 3 gun matches and weekly skeet and trap leagues in the summer.

If I had the choice, I preferred the hunting I was able to do in my earlier years but at my age I know I don’t have too many years left to walk the hills like I used to. Hunting opportunities are shrinking too for the “average” person with land being leased by bigger money than I can compete with so participation in these tactical events is my outlet to be outdoors with friends shooting (even if it’s just targets). You have to adapt and make the most of your opportunities within your means. Sadly that means my hunting rifles sit in the safe most of the year and my ARs and Glocks are used weekly.

As far as PR, I don’t post many pictures or video and don’t have a Facebook or other social media accounts other than this one. As a group, we are being driven underground as evidenced by trophy pictures being taken from this site being used by anti hunting organizations to support their agenda. It’s encouraging that many new gun owners are taking up the sport. Our match numbers are increasing and in spite of ammo shortages. Enough rambling. Things don’t stay the same and I’m a grumpy old man

You are in a position to be an excellent ambassador for helping spread the understanding that all gun owners, regardless of how we use them, are under attack. There are groups out there trying to disarm everyone. There are groups out there that claim to just want to get rid of the AR types. There are groups out there trying to end all hunting and some that claim to only want to protect the cute animals. There is a significant overlap in these groups.
All of us as gun owners are at some risk as a result. For someone only interested in the beautiful blue and walnut versions to say "well, they are only going to ban those ugly ARs, so what do I care", is displaying the most egregious ignorance of reality. For someone who only hunts turkey and whitetail to say "well, they're only trying to ban hunting in Africa" is just as ignorant.
Those pushing any form of disarmament, or any form of ban on hunting, both being based on emotion not reality, need to be fought. Whether the current push directly impacts your activity or not, it does effect your future ability to enjoy whatever aspect of shooting or hunting you currently partake. Unless we are as resolved to push back as they are to end our way of life, they will succeed.

 

[mark-hunter]

Heck, the UK pistol team had to practice in France for Olympics being held in the UK as they would not allow their own team to practice on UK soil.

This is really shame, but UK is really specific example. (not to meantion recent trophy import ban campaign)

 

[Ray B]

In the end, he’s down $15,000 on stuff that will be at a pawn shop for $100 in ten years.

Or possibly not-

History shows that when the government bans something the result is not what the government desired.

The price of alcohol during prohibition; the current and historical price of banned/restricted drugs show that those items if purchased pre-ban yielded a sizeable return- Just ask Joe Kennedy.

 

[Hunt anything]

I own 2 tactical guns, one is a home defense shotgun and the other is an AR15, I rarely shoot the shotgun but have everyone in my house trained up on the AR. I live pretty far out in a county that is bigger than the state of Delaware. The 1 time I had to call the sheriffs dept. it took them a full 45 minutes to respond. I feel these guns are imperative to my families safety but love my bolt guns and o/u shotguns for hunting.

 

[rookhawk]

Or possibly not-

History shows that when the government bans something the result is not what the government desired.

The price of alcohol during prohibition; the current and historical price of banned/restricted drugs show that those items if purchased pre-ban yielded a sizeable return- Just ask Joe Kennedy.

I understand what you are saying and certainly there are some pre-1986 HK battle rifles that are very collectible.

however, I think the antis are smarter this go around. They will make these ARs worthless using a few tactics. 1.) change them or lose them. You’ll have to surrender them or remove features. 2.) Grandfather without transfer. You can keep what you own, but you can’t buy more or sell what you have. 3.) Register them as NFA or similar, pay a tax stamp to possess them, then make transfer so cumbersome or expensive that secondary trade is impossible.

The reality is, with 15 million (I think more) ARs in the US there is no scarcity to drive up value. Any of the examples of appreciating tactical guns appreciated due to import bans whereas their reproduction US counterparts are relatively worthless.

Just my opinion, probably biased by the fact I hate them so much. The average owners are way too interested in talking about killing people or using them in a rebellion. I don’t like the role play and rhetoric that goes along with them either.

 

[Ray B]

Residents of Warsaw 1940 - 45 might have a different point of view as to the effectiveness of government bans and pricing/value of a gun.