Lion hunting SA

[revturbo9967]

I knew this would be a sideways thread as soon as I opened it, but seemed to settle itself down quickly. Lion is probably my top hunt out of everything on this planet. Unfortunately it’s probably a little out of reach financially.

 

[Ruraldoc]

I have never hunted a lion. Wild lion at 50 to 100k is out of reach for me.

If I go it will be in SA, the hunts appear to be genuinely dangerous. Also tracking the lion as opposed to hunting a baited lion appears to be a fun way to go after a big cat.

About a decade ago I passed up the chance to do a depredation Jaguar hunt in South America. One of my buddies was taking a group of lion dogs there and I just had to pay for our plane tickets and freight costs on a dozen dogs.

It was short notice and I should have gone but passed.

Since then, I’ve wanted to hunt a large dangerous cat somewhere. SA lion is the only way I could afford it.

 

[Inline6]

Every major hunting organization aside from PHASA says this practice is damaging to the reputation of hunters and provides no conservation value, but I should shut my mouth and give full support to whoever participates? I think not.

DSC, CIC Oppose Captive Bred Lion Shooting - Dallas Safari Club

[box] Read DSC’s Previous Statement on Captive Bred Lion Hunting – January 2018 [/box]

www.biggame.org

Let's be honest, everything is damaging to the reputation of hunters when it comes to hunting.

Most none hunting people, feel animals have the same rights as people. They live in a fantasy world, they don't even realize their hamburger is made from a cow. Read the comments on YouTube in a hunting series/post. The amount of hate is unreal.

Dog fighting, something I could never do has happened before any of us were every thought about. Shutdown because of people's feelings. Cock fighting same thing (in the US anyways). Reasons are the same. I know this is apple and orange as far as hunting CBL, my point is people who do not agree with hunting can less about how of why the hunt happens, their beautiful Simba was murdered.

CBL is a touchy subject that everyone feels a way about. Some hate it some love it, some it's not a big deal one way or the other. I like the idea of tracking vs baiting. That is my personal preference, someone who baits I get it too. Have hunted black bear both ways, I know which way I like better. At the end of the day people have strong feelings about their beliefs, human nature.

 

[Rare Breed]

my sincere apologies everyone i may have offended!!! i do not drink much. last night i opened an early Christmas present of bourbon and had a wee too much sitting by the fire!!!!

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

my sincere apologies everyone i may have offended!!! i do not drink much. last night i opened an early Christmas present of bourbon and had a wee too much sitting by the fire!!!!

No worries here! What bourbon was it??

 

[Scott CWO]

I'm pretty sure you will have to leave your trophy with your outfitter.

I'd love to hunt lion, but only when they are wild and importable into the U.S.A.








Thanks to the Cecil ordeal and Obama...

Wild lion are being imported again. Do you get the Conservation Force newsletter?

 

[Daisy]

UNITED AGAINST CANNED LION SHOOTING - Rowland Ward

– by Paul Hunter Rowland Ward joins other conservation groups in taking a stand against the shooting of captive-bred lions. Rowland Ward Ltd. has united with several highly regarded international conservation groups to take a firm stand against the practice of captive-bred lion shooting. The...

rowlandward.org

So you pick and choose the conservation groups you support? There are tons of them against all African hunting. I wouldn’t “brag” about conservation groups being against a particular style of hunting you don’t like.

 

[Rare Breed]

No worries here! What bourbon was it??

Four Roses Small Batch…embarrassed to say two small glasses did me in!!! thanks for accepting my apology!

 

[revturbo9967]

So you pick and choose the conservation groups you support? There are tons of them against all African hunting. I wouldn’t “brag” about conservation groups being against a particular style of hunting you don’t like.

This isn’t a style of hunting we are talking about. This isn’t baiting vs non baiting or hunting over a food plot or a natural food source. This is an animal which is normally a predator in the wild, raised and released only to be shot for a profit. Method of hunting has absolutely nothing to do with the practice.

 

[Scott CWO]

Hi Derek,

I am in no way affiliated to any lion hunting or organisations directly in SA/Kenya. However I am well aware of differing opinions and organisations within the industry.

In SA you have captive bred hunting. There is vast difference in a proper captive bred lion hunt and what unfortunately has tainted the industry which is known as canned hunting. Almost all organisations are against canned hunting, whereas some are for captive and others against. THis is where you need to do your research and get a proper operator. Then there is the illusion that this (canned and captive breeding species only happens to lion hunting in SA, which is wrong, you have captive bred hunting of all species, specifically Buffalo, Kudu, Sable, crocodile etc.

Kenya, I do not know that well, but a quick search for hunts myself while typing this, seems to be wild unfenced hunts.

Now, I had the pleasure of meeting some pro captive bred farmers and industry leading people (note, all were against canned hunting - whether they do it not, I do not know). The argument for this type of hunt, which I 100% understand, is that on captive bred lion hunts, saves the wild lion population. Why is this? Because the hunt of a wild lion could damage the lion population. How, well if you hunt the pride male, another male would be become the pride male, killing all the previous pride male's cubs. Also, wild lion numbers are not that much, imagine every hunter hunting a wild lion, how numbers would plummet. For this exact reason, countries such as Zim etc. have introduced stringent measures for PH's to determine whether the male being hunted is not the pride male such as age etc.

This is where captive bred lions have the edge, they are bred to be hunted and the hunt will not impact the wild lion population. Also, these hunts are not as expensive.

For me, I would probably prefer a wild lion hunt on a proper 14/21 day safari. But only if I had the money and if the wild lion specifically can be confirmed to be a old lion that was kicked out of the tribe, (not baited from a reserve, nor hunted with dogs - yes all these stuff happen with the supposedly clean wild hunts as well). If not and I still just wanted to hunt a lion for the experience, then I would consider a proper captive bred hunt rather and leave the wild lions.

Currently, a lion hunt is not that high on my list because of all of the above and bad press on it. I would rather do 5X buffalo hunts.

There are several places with wild lion hunting with fully healthy populations of lions. Even so, the quotas are very small and the conservations value is very high. Most areas have a quota of only two male lions per year in Zambia and Tanzania.

Kenya? What are you talking about? Kenya hasn’t allowed hunting since the 1970s and has wildlife only in national parks because of it and a few pieces of private property. If there’s no value to wildlife through well- managed hunting, the wildlife on government or public lands disappears.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Four Roses Small Batch…embarrassed to say two small glasses did me in!!! thanks for accepting my apology!

I always thought Four Roses was fantastic. No problem! I’m sure everyone on AH knows I’ve had my moments..

 

[Hunt anything]

absolutely thoroughly enjoyed your hunt report with a similar experience. tracking is my favorite way to hunt!

the only tracking hunt I’ve been able to do has been for buffalo and my trackers were able to track a Lichtenstein hartebeest in Mozambique, an amazing piece of tracking. I wish I would have been able to afford it back when you could track both lion and leopard in Botswana. It seems to have been a very exciting hunt.

 

[375Fox]

2nd-ly.
Conservation value is scrutinized, but maybe also not utilized or optimized, or assesed to full potential.
Practice shows there is a real conservation potential in this.

How the world’s largest lion relocation was pulled off

To bring lions back to central Mozambique, logistics ranged from providing safe transport to blessings from the spirit world.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Not one of these lions came from a CBL breeding farm. There is always an attempt in this debate to draw parallels where there are none. Not all fenced lions are CBL. These lions introduced to Mozambique all came from wild managed populations from big reserves in South Africa. CBL lions are raised on 400 sq meter (per SAPA) and bred for characteristics appealing for trophy hunters not survival and released for a week prior to being shot. If there was conservation value to CBL lions originally, it’s long gone now once they started breeding white lions, lions with manes not seen anywhere in the wild, and other characteristics.

 

[375Fox]

So you pick and choose the conservation groups you support? There are tons of them against all African hunting. I wouldn’t “brag” about conservation groups being against a particular style of hunting you don’t like.

Every one of the organizations listed on that joint statement are a hunting organization. That says something to me. You’ll also notice it’s referred to as shooting not hunting. For good reason as well, it’s a farming practice with a unique harvesting method unfortunately sold as hunting.

 

[375Fox]

Let's be honest, everything is damaging to the reputation of hunters when it comes to hunting.

Most none hunting people, feel animals have the same rights as people. They live in a fantasy world, they don't even realize their hamburger is made from a cow. Read the comments on YouTube in a hunting series/post. The amount of hate is unreal.

Dog fighting, something I could never do has happened before any of us were every thought about. Shutdown because of people's feelings. Cock fighting same thing (in the US anyways). Reasons are the same. I know this is apple and orange as far as hunting CBL, my point is people who do not agree with hunting can less about how of why the hunt happens, their beautiful Simba was murdered.

CBL is a touchy subject that everyone feels a way about. Some hate it some love it, some it's not a big deal one way or the other. I like the idea of tracking vs baiting. That is my personal preference, someone who baits I get it too. Have hunted black bear both ways, I know which way I like better. At the end of the day people have strong feelings about their beliefs, human nature.

If we are going to be honest we need to decide the model we support because they are contradictory to each other. We can support the limited quota and sustainable hunting model where we only take off older animals and allow the rest of the herd to thrive. Money paid supports area improvements, anti-poaching, community engagement, etc. Or we can support the farming model such as CBL where Farmer commercially raises animals, animal is transported and stocked prior to hunt for a hunter, animal is harvested. Money goes to outfitter to market more “hunts” and money goes to farmer to commercially raise more lions, none of the money is used to establish a population of lions outside the breeding facility. To me supporting the farming model with lions devalues wild lions and hurts wild areas. No money goes towards conservation shooting a CBL lion. Maybe 50 lions get shot in a year off a 10,000 acre ranch used for CBL shooting. Maybe 2 lions get shot a year off a 100k acre concession. One is conservation, one is farming with a unique harvesting method. It’s not an argument of tracking vs baiting. There are wild and wild managed lions you can hunt by tracking if you’d like. The argument to me is support conservation or support a farming practice.

 

[sureshot375]

So here’s the deal. Almost all of the lion hunting in South Africa is for lions who are raised in a pen, fed by humans, and turned out some period of time before the hunt. They only exceptions I know of are hunts in the greater Kruger. I don’t think there have been any of these hunts for a few years.

A South Africa lion hunt is in no way comparable to a wild lion hunt. Hunting wild lions is an experience in itself. It’s is in no way a guaranteed hunt. Most are shot over bait. Tracking a wild lion would be the ultimate lion hunt. Bait or not it Halley requires a lengthy and expensive trip. Prices for a wild lion would start in the 50k range which is out of reach for many people, including myself.

I don’t have any interest in shooting a semi domesticated cat in South Africa. I’d rather hunt buffalo or a non-trophy elephant which are in my price range. There are however a number of people who I know and respect, including people on this site, who have hunted lions in SA and had a very enjoyable experience.

There is apparently some variety in the quality of the lion hunts offered in SA. This would typically involve how long the lions have been released, terrain, size of property, and ability or concern of PH in crafting a reasonable hunting experience. You really can’t tell any of these things from talking to an outfitter. You will have to find experienced hunters who have hunted with a particular outfitter; however, beware not every safari goer is experienced, and many have been duped by shady outfitters. There are some really bad outfitters on the lion front. Plenty of evidence on YouTube. There are outfitters that will walk you right up to a semi drugged lion and have you blast it. I’ve talked to a number of outfitters over the years about these hunts. In every instance, after my due diligence, I found the representations of the outfitters to range from misleading to completely false. Someone once told me “ Not everyone in the safari industry is a crook, but all the crooks are in the safari industry”. I guess what I’m trying to say is really do your homework. This same advice applies to hunts in other countries.

Now there are some pros to the South Africa hunts. First they are affordable. Second they are typically done by tracking, which is more enjoyable to me than a bait hunt. At the end of the day you are standing on the ground with an apex predator and looking it in the eyes. I believe this is the part of the experience that sticks with those who have done it. Released or not, looking into a lions eyes is real.

I believe the CBL hunts to be more dangerous. That danger comes from the fact that the lion has no natural fear of people. If you shoot a wild lion it runs off. You may have problems if you didn’t shoot it well and have have to follow up a wounded lion. In contrast CBL lions seem more likely to change at the people who have been following them around all morning and eventually shooting at them.

At present I don’t believe you can import a CBL into the us.

It’s a divisive topic. I’ve tried to be as honest as possible in the post. I don’t really have a dog in this fight. Do your research and hunt what you want to hunt

 

[mark-hunter]

These lions introduced to Mozambique all came from wild managed populations from big reserves in South Africa. CBL lions are raised on 400 sq meter (per SAPA) and bred for characteristics appealing for trophy hunters not survival and released for a week prior to being shot.

This definition I haven't been aware. Thanks for clarification!

 

[wesheltonj]

I was not going to respond as I have no interest in Hunting Wild, Managed or Captive lions. I don't have a problem shooting animals behind a fence if the acreage is large enough for that breed of animal. Nor do I have a problem with baiting. We all have our own ethics and morals, I try not to impose mine on anyone else (except when I am working and I have to impose the states).

Captive would not exist if for the demand. However, it does nothing for conservation but only profits the breeder, outfitters and the Chinese for parts. I am not sure how you can decrease the demand when every major hunting group is opposed. . . . Flame away

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

One big difference between CBL & free range lion, baits we normally go thru 3 large animals giraffe, hippo for baits. This is a part of your memorable lion hunt. One thing is for sure CBL has close to 100% success rate. You take it from there.

 

[mark-hunter]

Speaking of chinese and lion bones.
I wonder if CBL lion hunting and export of lion parts to china does it reduce poaching pressure on wild lion population elsewhere?