Lion hunting SA

[Wishfulthinker580]

I would not know about shooting a CBL in a barrel, so I will pass judgment on this, but the lion hunt I did in the Kalahari, tracking on foot miles after miles, days after days, needs no defending, it stands on its own merit. Believe you me, a heck of a lot better than a lot of shooting I have seen done in Africa.......................................................

It was still a cbl was it not?

 

[Rare Breed]

Divide and conquer. Separate people into two or more competing groups and watch them beat each other down. We’ve seen simple political strategy since most of us were old enough to comprehend any difference in political opinions. You all know what I am writing of; pro-life or woman’s choice, give women the vote, prohibition of alcohol, draft or no draft, welfare, immigration, outlaw or legalize marijuana, foreign aid to Ukraine and/or Israel (or Gaza?), black lives or all lives matter, he is now a she and vice-versa, 2nd Amendment rights or gun control, assault rifles, high-capacity magazines, semi-automatic firearms, animal rights or hunting, subsistence or trophy hunting, and the issue of today, wild lion hunting or captive bred lion (CBL) hunting? For the preceding short list of issues that we may all have differing opinions of, perhaps CBL hunting is one that should be the least contentious among us hunters?

I admit of climbing up on a soapbox to preach about how hunting and consuming meat is the primary factor in human brain development and evolving into the homo sapiens of today. Granted it’s nice to have a large brains buts sometimes, maybe we over think some things. “Why don’t you just buy your meat in a store rather than killing it?” To that I respond, “Thinking like that would make me a bad person for paying someone to do my killing for me!” If someone is however a vegan, I will respect them for at least NOT being a hypocrite.

A while back I was doing a lot of pheasant hunting on preserves. I thought it was good sport and my dog didn’t know that I had paid someone to hide pheasants. I took pride in always bagging more pheasants than I had paid for. Those bonus birds were good work on my dog’s and my part or at least better than the last guy and dog. Are South Dakota pheasants on an expensive ranch any more legitimate than those I shot on a preserve in Michigan? Maybe, but how much more so?

There are hunters who pay high fees at trophy ranches for large antlered bucks. Is shooting one of those any less than me sitting in my heated elevated deer house for a dozen mornings until something enters or runs across my field? While different, I think they are both hunting.

Is the big rack from a trophy ranch buck better or worse that a 6-point I shot on my few acres? I say good for you if that’s what you want to hunt and can afford. Thinking of that, the real trophies are those decent size bucks shot on public hunting areas. They are the real trophies!

Is bow hunting in early season better than hunting with a rifle in the late season? Maybe but I if I want a big buck where I live, I better be in the stand during bow season!

Concerning money, if I won a super-duper lottery and suddenly had more money than I could comprehend, would I hunt a captive bred lion again? I think I would since I enjoyed my CBL hunt. Now, if I could hunt wild lion by tracking day after day, that would be more challenging. When however reading Use Enough Gun by Ruark, I don’t remember Ruark and Harry Selby tracking lion lions for days at time. I recall Selby or others would spot a big lion and then the stalk was on. Or was it that they spotted a big lion from the Land Rover? I think that CBL hunting is similar to that. Also, in 1950 when Ruark went on his first safari for a month, they were probably going to spot a lion or two. Ruark mentioned his safari cost $10,000 which is around $110,000 today. If only I could win a big lottery, or something like that. Until then, maybe another CBL hunt someday.

Then there is the whole “lion” thing. How could anyone shoot a lion? They are the king of the beasts after all. What about those majestic elephants? Or teddy bear like things we call black and grizzly bears? They look so cute. Aren't they all endangered species, or so I’ve been asked? To those questions I try to explain how human expansion has reduced habitat for wild animals, how an elephant will eat a native African’s year’s worth of food crop in a single night. Or how an aging lion will die a painful death by other lions or starvation and a hunter’s bullet isn’t so bad in comparison. It’s all a matter of perspective, isn’t it?

So, if I go to a butcher, I have a 100% chance of purchasing meat of birds and animals. Similarly, if I pay to hunt with a PH who has a very high success rate, I will have a better than good chance of the PH getting me into killing range. And I’ve a pretty good shot! For lions and leopards, the success rates are lower than for other game, but for a decent PH in a good area, probably far higher than 50%. Granted, this in more sporting than CBL hunting, but how much more so. If a PH has a 20% success rate for trophy book cats, then yes, much more so. But if it's just a nice size cat, elephant, eland, or so on, then it's hunting. Some better than others, but still hunting.

This is all about ethics, isn’t it? Is hunting ethical? Is killing a wild lion more ethical than a captive bred lion? A CBL lion is bred to be killed by man similar to a cow bred on a ranch. A wild lion is if anything is, king of the beasts. How is it more ethical to kill a wild lion than a CBL lion? Then, since they are all living things, how is killing a CBL lion less ethical than killing a farm raised cow or chicken?

Different isn't bad, it's only different.

I'll don my flame proof Novax suit now and stand by...
Happy hunting to all and Merry Christmas!

i am so with you my friend!!! you should write a book Mark…i would buy it!

 

[Daisy]

Like I said earlier, it’s obviously exciting and looks like a blast but that does not make it ok. I’ve even been tempted myself. Yes, you read like correctly. I seriously doubt I will ever be able to afford a wild (male) lion so the affordability of it is attractive. I’ll probably never be able to afford a bongo in central Africa or a markhor in Pakistan so instead of cheapening it by shooting one in Texas I’ll just do without. The same goes for lion.

i see that. Very reasonable.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Like I said earlier, it’s obviously exciting and looks like a blast but that does not make it ok. I’ve even been tempted myself. Yes, you read like correctly. I seriously doubt I will ever be able to afford a wild (male) lion so the affordability of it is attractive. I’ll probably never be able to afford a bongo in central Africa or a markhor in Pakistan so instead of cheapening it by shooting one in Texas I’ll just do without. The same goes for lion.

You might want to price a trophy bongo hunt in Texas. I think you'll learn you can't afford one in Texas either since Central Africa is the cheaper one of the two options. Same goes for Buffalo, and most other African species.

 

[375Fox]

What about the people that have done both, and think highly of their SA hunt? Is their perspective valid?

Have you done both? If not does that not mean you are defending the actions of the hunt you took, or maybe defending the large outlay of money you spent for your hunt?

To my knowledge there is only one member of this forum that has done both CBL and wild lion. He lists CBL as a misrepresented hunt he would not do again. Very few hunters have hunted wild lions because sustainable quotas are low and costs are high. Many have shot CBL lions because they are bred to meet demand and cost is very low.

 

[375Fox]

I have been on a South African ranch with a sizable rhino population. They pay for antipoaching guards to protect the place.

Still they were losing Rhinos so they put up a cross fence,several miles long and adjoining a public road.

More than a dozen lions, male and female of breeding age are in this area. Signs warn people on the road that the area holds lions.

There is some hard hunted plains game and cattle are released into the area for the lions to hunt and kill.

I inquired about hunting a lion there. It may be the most dangerous lion hunt out there.

I was nervous driving through the area seated in the back of the truck. These lions are not there to be hunted and are not marketed as such.

But hunting one there has been on my mind ever since I saw the place.

These lions would qualify as wild managed lions based on your description not CBL lions. They’d need to hunt them eventually because lions breed fast. These are the hunts I’d like to see, but they come at a cost significantly higher than a recently released CBL lion.

 

[Doubleplay]

Do whatever you want but don't let anyone tell you CBL is hunting.
Because it's not, it's just shooting.
I visited CBL farms in Africa and have pictures I to prove it.
I even saw the selling prices for the different animals with better manes or lionesses.
They are hand fed and raised by humans from the day they were born.
They don't know how to hunt and fed by the outfitter after they are released on the property couple days or couple hours before the hunter shows up.
They'll make you believe you are tracking the lion but in realty the lion hangs out in the general area where they feed him and they know at all times where he is.
I also tagged along with my PH buddy on a CBL hunt and seeing the clueless hunter was actually hilarious but sad at the same time.
Hunting is something you don't know what the outcome will be.

 

[375Fox]

Do whatever you want but don't let anyone tell you CBL is hunting.
Because it's not, it's just shooting.
I visited CBL farms in Africa and have pictures I to prove it.
I even saw the selling prices for the different animals with better manes or lionesses.
They are hand fed and raised by humans from the day they were born.
They don't know how to hunt and fed by the outfitter after they are released on the property couple days or couple hours before the hunter shows up.
They'll make you believe you are tracking the lion but in realty the lion hangs out in the general area where they feed him and they know at all times where he is.
I also tagged along with my PH buddy on a CBL hunt and seeing the clueless hunter was actually hilarious but sad at the same time.
Hunting is something you don't know what the outcome will be.

I think if more visited the CBL farm prior to their “hunt” they’d have a very different opinion of the CBL experience.

 

[Vintageguy]

Divide and conquer. Separate people into two or more competing groups and watch them beat each other down. We’ve seen simple political strategy since most of us were old enough to comprehend any difference in political opinions. You all know what I am writing of; pro-life or woman’s choice, give women the vote, prohibition of alcohol, draft or no draft, welfare, immigration, outlaw or legalize marijuana, foreign aid to Ukraine and/or Israel (or Gaza?), black lives or all lives matter, he is now a she and vice-versa, 2nd Amendment rights or gun control, assault rifles, high-capacity magazines, semi-automatic firearms, animal rights or hunting, subsistence or trophy hunting, and the issue of today, wild lion hunting or captive bred lion (CBL) hunting? For the preceding short list of issues that we may all have differing opinions of, perhaps CBL hunting is one that should be the least contentious among us hunters?

I admit of climbing up on a soapbox to preach about how hunting and consuming meat is the primary factor in human brain development and evolving into the homo sapiens of today. Granted it’s nice to have a large brains buts sometimes, maybe we over think some things. “Why don’t you just buy your meat in a store rather than killing it?” To that I respond, “Thinking like that would make me a bad person for paying someone to do my killing for me!” If someone is however a vegan, I will respect them for at least NOT being a hypocrite.

A while back I was doing a lot of pheasant hunting on preserves. I thought it was good sport and my dog didn’t know that I had paid someone to hide pheasants. I took pride in always bagging more pheasants than I had paid for. Those bonus birds were good work on my dog’s and my part or at least better than the last guy and dog. Are South Dakota pheasants on an expensive ranch any more legitimate than those I shot on a preserve in Michigan? Maybe, but how much more so?

There are hunters who pay high fees at trophy ranches for large antlered bucks. Is shooting one of those any less than me sitting in my heated elevated deer house for a dozen mornings until something enters or runs across my field? While different, I think they are both hunting.

Is the big rack from a trophy ranch buck better or worse that a 6-point I shot on my few acres? I say good for you if that’s what you want to hunt and can afford. Thinking of that, the real trophies are those decent size bucks shot on public hunting areas. They are the real trophies!

Is bow hunting in early season better than hunting with a rifle in the late season? Maybe but I if I want a big buck where I live, I better be in the stand during bow season!

Concerning money, if I won a super-duper lottery and suddenly had more money than I could comprehend, would I hunt a captive bred lion again? I think I would since I enjoyed my CBL hunt. Now, if I could hunt wild lion by tracking day after day, that would be more challenging. When however reading Use Enough Gun by Ruark, I don’t remember Ruark and Harry Selby tracking lion lions for days at time. I recall Selby or others would spot a big lion and then the stalk was on. Or was it that they spotted a big lion from the Land Rover? I think that CBL hunting is similar to that. Also, in 1950 when Ruark went on his first safari for a month, they were probably going to spot a lion or two. Ruark mentioned his safari cost $10,000 which is around $110,000 today. If only I could win a big lottery, or something like that. Until then, maybe another CBL hunt someday.

Then there is the whole “lion” thing. How could anyone shoot a lion? They are the king of the beasts after all. What about those majestic elephants? Or teddy bear like things we call black and grizzly bears? They look so cute. Aren't they all endangered species, or so I’ve been asked? To those questions I try to explain how human expansion has reduced habitat for wild animals, how an elephant will eat a native African’s year’s worth of food crop in a single night. Or how an aging lion will die a painful death by other lions or starvation and a hunter’s bullet isn’t so bad in comparison. It’s all a matter of perspective, isn’t it?

So, if I go to a butcher, I have a 100% chance of purchasing meat of birds and animals. Similarly, if I pay to hunt with a PH who has a very high success rate, I will have a better than good chance of the PH getting me into killing range. And I’ve a pretty good shot! For lions and leopards, the success rates are lower than for other game, but for a decent PH in a good area, probably far higher than 50%. Granted, this in more sporting than CBL hunting, but how much more so. If a PH has a 20% success rate for trophy book cats, then yes, much more so. But if it's just a nice size cat, elephant, eland, or so on, then it's hunting. Some better than others, but still hunting.

This is all about ethics, isn’t it? Is hunting ethical? Is killing a wild lion more ethical than a captive bred lion? A CBL lion is bred to be killed by man similar to a cow bred on a ranch. A wild lion is if anything is, king of the beasts. How is it more ethical to kill a wild lion than a CBL lion? Then, since they are all living things, how is killing a CBL lion less ethical than killing a farm raised cow or chicken?

Different isn't bad, it's only different.

I'll don my flame proof Novax suit now and stand by...
Happy hunting to all and Merry Christmas!

Just a chuckle concerning preserve pheasants. My wife and I for years made annual pilgrimages to South Dakota and Iowa for pheasants. We mostly hunted farms of friends but South Dakota at one time, not sure now, released pen raised birds on public land. No hens, only roosters and they banded their legs with a taught steel band to insure the bird didn’t survive to spring breeding, no lie, killed several birds wearing them.
Well now I raise and release my own in Virginia and honestly we can’t tell a difference from wild birds after only a couple of days.
But to the point, the guy I buy birds from hauls 20000 or more at a time to the Dakotas, Iowa, Kansas,…etc. He was laughing that his neighbors drive two days going out there and likely they are shooting birds that grew up next door back home.

 

[Philip Glass]

Thanks guys. I just needed to know. Any recommendations on lion hunts youve enjoyed or outfitters?

I had a very successful hunt for lion in the Omay in Zimbabwe. We also had big males roaring out side our camp every night this year! One note of caution when booking a lion hunt is the cost of bait. A lion hunt will usually be 15-21 days and there may be pre-baiting fees to pay for as well. Make a spreadsheet! Additionally to book a hunt like this I highly recommend (or demand If I knew you better) that you attend DSC and SCI conventions and sit down with the outfitters to book a hunt like this.

I described my lion hunt at the time as a hunters climb of Everest. It is the most exhilarating hunt of the all!

Regards,
Philip

 

[Philip Glass]

Where can you hunt a wild lion in RSA? I’ve never really researched lion hunts but have seen adds for them and most say not exportable to the US, I assume they are captive bred but the ones I’ve seen that were exportable to the US were in the Kruger area. Curiosity is getting to me. Thanks

You would have to consult with the professionals to get the correct answer on this. The Hunting Consortium would know who can provide this type of hunt as well as John Jackson with Conservation Force.
There are "wild managed lions" inRSA that are exportable. There is too much gray area and confusion to go it alone IMO.

 

[dchum]

Hi Derek,

I am in no way affiliated to any lion hunting or organisations directly in SA/Kenya. However I am well aware of differing opinions and organisations within the industry.

In SA you have captive bred hunting. There is vast difference in a proper captive bred lion hunt and what unfortunately has tainted the industry which is known as canned hunting. Almost all organisations are against canned hunting, whereas some are for captive and others against. THis is where you need to do your research and get a proper operator. Then there is the illusion that this (canned and captive breeding species only happens to lion hunting in SA, which is wrong, you have captive bred hunting of all species, specifically Buffalo, Kudu, Sable, crocodile etc.

Kenya, I do not know that well, but a quick search for hunts myself while typing this, seems to be wild unfenced hunts.

Now, I had the pleasure of meeting some pro captive bred farmers and industry leading people (note, all were against canned hunting - whether they do it not, I do not know). The argument for this type of hunt, which I 100% understand, is that on captive bred lion hunts, saves the wild lion population. Why is this? Because the hunt of a wild lion could damage the lion population. How, well if you hunt the pride male, another male would be become the pride male, killing all the previous pride male's cubs. Also, wild lion numbers are not that much, imagine every hunter hunting a wild lion, how numbers would plummet. For this exact reason, countries such as Zim etc. have introduced stringent measures for PH's to determine whether the male being hunted is not the pride male such as age etc.

This is where captive bred lions have the edge, they are bred to be hunted and the hunt will not impact the wild lion population. Also, these hunts are not as expensive.

For me, I would probably prefer a wild lion hunt on a proper 14/21 day safari. But only if I had the money and if the wild lion specifically can be confirmed to be a old lion that was kicked out of the tribe, (not baited from a reserve, nor hunted with dogs - yes all these stuff happen with the supposedly clean wild hunts as well). If not and I still just wanted to hunt a lion for the experience, then I would consider a proper captive bred hunt rather and leave the wild lions.

Currently, a lion hunt is not that high on my list because of all of the above and bad press on it. I would rather do 5X buffalo hunts.

Kenya??

Canned lion hunting does not help the wild population as you say. Your post seems very uninformed on the reality.

Large undeveloped hunting concessions and and anti Poaching are what keep lion population steady in wild areas.

Spending 3 grand in SA to shoot a bottle fed lion is not saving the wild lion in Africa. You are just shooting a human bred lion. Stop coping

 

[saswart]

Kenya??

Canned lion hunting does not help the wild population as you say. Your post seems very uninformed on the reality.

Large undeveloped hunting concessions and and anti Poaching are what keep lion population steady in wild areas.

Spending 3 grand in SA to shoot a bottle fed lion is not saving the wild lion in Africa. You are just shooting a human bred lion. Stop coping

Thanks yip -I missed typed and did acknowledge somewhere in this thread meant to say Tanzania. Also agree hunting and anti poaching keeps lion population healthy, in fact all animals. That is why I hunt.

But on the rest of your comments, maybe if read my post or you misunderstood me - you would have read that I spoke, and still do, to a lot of people involved in hunting, specifically CBL and wild lions. You would also have read that my personal preference is for wild lions rather than a CBL, however I would also do a proper CBL hunt. Currently lion hunting in general (either a proper wild lion or CBL) is not that high on my list. I do not need to cope, I am pretty happy in RSA and Africa at the moment and noted to all what the industry view is on the matter in RSA.. which I will now expand on for you specifically..

@dchum to illustrate how "misinformed" I may potentially be... Go and read up our South African PH associations specifically on CBL issue. The one formed exactly from infighting over this exact issue. Then maybe you have heard on Ron Thompson, maybe not, not sure how informed you may be, but he researched CBL and wild lion hunting and came to the conclusions that CBL hunting in SA should not be condemned (if I recall correctly - happy to be corrected). Here is the link to the article he prepared and to quote him "for your elucidation" - Ron Thompson

You can also go and read up on the issue at the CIC

Then a bit of topic, but to disperse the idea of bottle fed lions, there was numerous CBL lions released. One guy did a doctorate (i can share it with you if you want to be more infirmed). The doctorate focused on CBL raised lions being released to a private nature reserve. All lions released survived, hunted and the doctorate research ended with the F2 offspring being successfully raised by bottle fed lions. Quite astonishing, but as we all in Africa know, a wild animal stays a wild animal...

So maybe your comment "tp stop coping" was not meant for me, but I do not not need to cope with the issue. I have experienced and talked to both sides, I do believe, in my opinion, both can and do co-exist successfully.

Lastly, whether whoever wants to hunt a CBL or wild lion, do your research on the operator/PH/outfitter as both sides are known to take shortcuts and both have proper hunts. Basing your idea on someone, and no offence to those people. who have only experienced 1 CBL bunt or 1 wild lion hunt, is dangerous.

Fighting on whatever never helps anyone - do your (directed at any reader) research and make your own decision and live my it. But infighting on hunting is exactly what the woke greenie world wants. We are fighting for them...

And @dchum just to avoid any confusion - I am against any canned lion hunts. There is and is supposed to be a difference between the latter and CBL..

 

[Rare Breed]

Thanks yip -I missed typed and did acknowledge somewhere in this thread meant to say Tanzania. Also agree hunting and anti poaching keeps lion population healthy, in fact all animals. That is why I hunt.

But on the rest of your comments, maybe if read my post or you misunderstood me - you would have read that I spoke, and still do, to a lot of people involved in hunting, specifically CBL and wild lions. You would also have read that my personal preference is for wild lions rather than a CBL, however I would also do a proper CBL hunt. Currently lion hunting in general (either a proper wild lion or CBL) is not that high on my list. I do not need to cope, I am pretty happy in RSA and Africa at the moment and noted to all what the industry view is on the matter in RSA.. which I will now expand on for you specifically..

@dchum to illustrate how "misinformed" I may potentially be... Go and read up our South African PH associations specifically on CBL issue. The one formed exactly from infighting over this exact issue. Then maybe you have heard on Ron Thompson, maybe not, not sure how informed you may be, but he researched CBL and wild lion hunting and came to the conclusions that CBL hunting in SA should not be condemned (if I recall correctly - happy to be corrected). Here is the link to the article he prepared and to quote him "for your elucidation" - Ron Thompson

You can also go and read up on the issue at the CIC

Then a bit of topic, but to disperse the idea of bottle fed lions, there was numerous CBL lions released. One guy did a doctorate (i can share it with you if you want to be more infirmed). The doctorate focused on CBL raised lions being released to a private nature reserve. All lions released survived, hunted and the doctorate research ended with the F2 offspring being successfully raised by bottle fed lions. Quite astonishing, but as we all in Africa know, a wild animal stays a wild animal...

So maybe your comment "tp stop coping" was not meant for me, but I do not not need to cope with the issue. I have experienced and talked to both sides, I do believe, in my opinion, both can and do co-exist successfully.

Lastly, whether whoever wants to hunt a CBL or wild lion, do your research on the operator/PH/outfitter as both sides are known to take shortcuts and both have proper hunts. Basing your idea on someone, and no offence to those people. who have only experienced 1 CBL bunt or 1 wild lion hunt, is dangerous.

Fighting on whatever never helps anyone - do your (directed at any reader) research and make your own decision and live my it. But infighting on hunting is exactly what the woke greenie world wants. We are fighting for them...

And @dchum just to avoid any confusion - I am against any canned lion hunts. There is and is supposed to be a difference between the latter and CBL..

Very well written. i too researched different CBL hunts before picking mine in The Kalahari. you are correct not all are the same whatsoever. I thoroughly enjoyed mine and if you see my video posted on here you will see him charging me so for anyone who thinks they are just easy to kill “pussycats” let me assure you they are not

to everyone’s points. 1. CBL hunts are not for everyone…no problem whatsoever…i am sure i also would enjoy a wild lion hunt. i make no excuse and as stated thoroughly enjoyed mine. 2. Do your homework…not all CBL lion hunts are equal…acrerage, time in area, etc.

 

[Doubleplay]

Then a bit of topic, but to disperse the idea of bottle fed lions, there was numerous CBL lions released. One guy did a doctorate (i can share it with you if you want to be more infirmed). The doctorate focused on CBL raised lions being released to a private nature reserve. All lions released survived, hunted and the doctorate research ended with the F2 offspring being successfully raised by bottle fed lions. Quite astonishing, but as we all in Africa know, a wild animal stays a wild animal...

No PH will release a CBL long and early enough to let the animal learn to kill trophy animals or jump the fence and cause problems in the neighboring properties and lose thousands of dollars.
This is not releasing into a nature reserve for a project or research.
This a canned shoot and they feed and keep an eye on the animals whereabouts at all times be it couple days or couple hours before it gets shot.
Been there and seen it from the insiders view from start to finish.
I don't want to post pictures of CBL facilities and how the operation works because anti hunting groups might be lurking here as this being a public forum.
Enough said...

 

[dchum]

No PH will release a CBL long and early enough to let the animal learn to kill trophy animals or jump the fence and cause problems in the neighboring properties and lose thousands of dollars.
This is not releasing into a nature reserve for a project or research.
This a canned shoot and they feed and keep an eye on the animals whereabouts at all times be it couple days or couple hours before it gets shot.
Been there and seen it from the insiders view from start to finish.
I don't want to post pictures of CBL facilities and how the operation works because anti hunting groups might be lurking here as this being a public forum.
Enough said...

Ya he said a lot that means very little.

He spoke to the people in the CBL industry and turns out they are pro CBL. Who would have thought lol - thanks for the insight haha @saswart

Any scenarios you are talking about have nothing to do with CBL hunting. You can keep writing your essay but it’s just more coping in your end. The lions we see hunted in SA are released no more than a few weeks. zero money or efforts from that hunt to saving real lions or to build lions up in SA.
All the other things you are bringing up have nothing to do with the CBL hunts that happened every day.

We are arguing about to different things and will never see eye to eye. @saswart

 

[375Fox]

No PH will release a CBL long and early enough to let the animal learn to kill trophy animals or jump the fence and cause problems in the neighboring properties and lose thousands of dollars.
This is not releasing into a nature reserve for a project or research.
This a canned shoot and they feed and keep an eye on the animals whereabouts at all times be it couple days or couple hours before it gets shot.
Been there and seen it from the insiders view from start to finish.
I don't want to post pictures of CBL facilities and how the operation works because anti hunting groups might be lurking here as this being a public forum.
Enough said...

My stance on CBL has really hardened over the years. However, I have hunted with PHs who do these hunts they all told me at least some of the lions do make kills. I think hunters participating in these “hunts” though either decide it’s irrelevant or don’t want to ask certain questions. Any farmer or outfitter who runs a successful business isn’t going to release lions a month or two prior and allow them to kill sable, roan, and other high value animals on the property then sell that hunt for less than the trophy fee on those prey animals. Also, no farmer or outfitter is going to let a lion that can’t hunt successfully die before the hunter arrives. Regardless of how the hunt is choreographed once the hunter arrives it doesn’t change the lion was bred on a commercial farm as livestock then transported to the hunting area to be harvested before the bones are sold. SAPA has videos of how they raise these lions on their YouTube channel as well for anyone who wants to see “how it’s done right.” SAPA also has their norms and standards for shooting CBL lions on their website for anyone who would like to read “how it’s done right.”

 

[HankBuck]

Divide and conquer. Separate people into two or more competing groups and watch them beat each other down. We’ve seen simple political strategy since most of us were old enough to comprehend any difference in political opinions. You all know what I am writing of; pro-life or woman’s choice, give women the vote, prohibition of alcohol, draft or no draft, welfare, immigration, outlaw or legalize marijuana, foreign aid to Ukraine and/or Israel (or Gaza?), black lives or all lives matter, he is now a she and vice-versa, 2nd Amendment rights or gun control, assault rifles, high-capacity magazines, semi-automatic firearms, animal rights or hunting, subsistence or trophy hunting, and the issue of today, wild lion hunting or captive bred lion (CBL) hunting? For the preceding short list of issues that we may all have differing opinions of, perhaps CBL hunting is one that should be the least contentious among us hunters?

I admit of climbing up on a soapbox to preach about how hunting and consuming meat is the primary factor in human brain development and evolving into the homo sapiens of today. Granted it’s nice to have a large brains buts sometimes, maybe we over think some things. “Why don’t you just buy your meat in a store rather than killing it?” To that I respond, “Thinking like that would make me a bad person for paying someone to do my killing for me!” If someone is however a vegan, I will respect them for at least NOT being a hypocrite.

A while back I was doing a lot of pheasant hunting on preserves. I thought it was good sport and my dog didn’t know that I had paid someone to hide pheasants. I took pride in always bagging more pheasants than I had paid for. Those bonus birds were good work on my dog’s and my part or at least better than the last guy and dog. Are South Dakota pheasants on an expensive ranch any more legitimate than those I shot on a preserve in Michigan? Maybe, but how much more so?

There are hunters who pay high fees at trophy ranches for large antlered bucks. Is shooting one of those any less than me sitting in my heated elevated deer house for a dozen mornings until something enters or runs across my field? While different, I think they are both hunting.

Is the big rack from a trophy ranch buck better or worse that a 6-point I shot on my few acres? I say good for you if that’s what you want to hunt and can afford. Thinking of that, the real trophies are those decent size bucks shot on public hunting areas. They are the real trophies!

Is bow hunting in early season better than hunting with a rifle in the late season? Maybe but I if I want a big buck where I live, I better be in the stand during bow season!

Concerning money, if I won a super-duper lottery and suddenly had more money than I could comprehend, would I hunt a captive bred lion again? I think I would since I enjoyed my CBL hunt. Now, if I could hunt wild lion by tracking day after day, that would be more challenging. When however reading Use Enough Gun by Ruark, I don’t remember Ruark and Harry Selby tracking lion lions for days at time. I recall Selby or others would spot a big lion and then the stalk was on. Or was it that they spotted a big lion from the Land Rover? I think that CBL hunting is similar to that. Also, in 1950 when Ruark went on his first safari for a month, they were probably going to spot a lion or two. Ruark mentioned his safari cost $10,000 which is around $110,000 today. If only I could win a big lottery, or something like that. Until then, maybe another CBL hunt someday.

Then there is the whole “lion” thing. How could anyone shoot a lion? They are the king of the beasts after all. What about those majestic elephants? Or teddy bear like things we call black and grizzly bears? They look so cute. Aren't they all endangered species, or so I’ve been asked? To those questions I try to explain how human expansion has reduced habitat for wild animals, how an elephant will eat a native African’s year’s worth of food crop in a single night. Or how an aging lion will die a painful death by other lions or starvation and a hunter’s bullet isn’t so bad in comparison. It’s all a matter of perspective, isn’t it?

So, if I go to a butcher, I have a 100% chance of purchasing meat of birds and animals. Similarly, if I pay to hunt with a PH who has a very high success rate, I will have a better than good chance of the PH getting me into killing range. And I’ve a pretty good shot! For lions and leopards, the success rates are lower than for other game, but for a decent PH in a good area, probably far higher than 50%. Granted, this in more sporting than CBL hunting, but how much more so. If a PH has a 20% success rate for trophy book cats, then yes, much more so. But if it's just a nice size cat, elephant, eland, or so on, then it's hunting. Some better than others, but still hunting.

This is all about ethics, isn’t it? Is hunting ethical? Is killing a wild lion more ethical than a captive bred lion? A CBL lion is bred to be killed by man similar to a cow bred on a ranch. A wild lion is if anything is, king of the beasts. How is it more ethical to kill a wild lion than a CBL lion? Then, since they are all living things, how is killing a CBL lion less ethical than killing a farm raised cow or chicken?

Different isn't bad, it's only different.

I'll don my flame proof Novax suit now and stand by...
Happy hunting to all and Merry Christmas!

MARK A., you lost me immediately with your support for “Women’s Right to Vote” ! That’s where All these problems originated (please don’t forward this to my Wife)

 

[saswart]

Ya he said a lot that means very little.


We are arguing about to different things and will never see eye to eye. @saswart

Very true. However, I actually believe we do agree to some extent, even though you seem to think otherwise. I said I do prefer wild lion hunting over CBL. Only difference is that I also see why hunters/farmers etc want to do a CBL. Also as per my first post, for this exact reason per our discussion herein is also why I would be hesitant to do a cbl. So, lets leave it at that, who knows we might meet in future and have a laugh beer and proper chat rather than having typed, misunderstood rants.

 

[HankBuck]

Just a chuckle concerning preserve pheasants. My wife and I for years made annual pilgrimages to South Dakota and Iowa for pheasants. We mostly hunted farms of friends but South Dakota at one time, not sure now, released pen raised birds on public land. No hens, only roosters and they banded their legs with a taught steel band to insure the bird didn’t survive to spring breeding, no lie, killed several birds wearing them.
Well now I raise and release my own in Virginia and honestly we can’t tell a difference from wild birds after only a couple of days.
But to the point, the guy I buy birds from hauls 20000 or more at a time to the Dakotas, Iowa, Kansas,…etc. He was laughing that his neighbors drive two days going out there and likely they are shooting birds that grew up next door back home.

Vintageguy, we have very different experiences with Pheasant and I will take you at your word that You’ve hunted both (wild & pen raised) extensively. I also hunted both and enjoyed hunting both. For training my pointers & labs in NJ there was no choice because the last “wild pheasant” were gone by the 1990s - pen raised was the only option. I enjoyed the dog work, and eating the pen raised pheasant too. Then once a year we flew our dogs out to Kansas and later South Dakota because Wild Kansas pheasant population also declined. Here has been my experience and that of my friends:
1). The birds “look” identical, beautiful, although wild pheasant tended to be a little smaller in both Kansas & SD, especially compared to pen raised birds over 6 months of age.
2). Wild birds “erupt” in flight faster - even in the rain, where as our dogs (labs) often caught Wet pen raised with no shots fired. Wild pheasant also often flew farther - 300-400 yrds and more vs the typical 100-200 of a pen raised.
3). Spooky - I’ve never seen a pen raised bird flush 400 yards away because you slammed your truck door....but in SD during late season hunts it happend almost every time we drove & parked at a new farm. Frustrating but An amazing sight to see - sometimes over 100 birds flush like a giant covey of quail at the far end of a field, all before your even got your dog out of his crate.
I still like hunting pen raised birds and couldn’t imagine getting my dogs trained without them. Pen Raised pheasant look exactly like Wild Pheasant just like Sylvester Stallone looks like “a real boxer”....the difference becomes obvious when you Put-them in-the-ring with the real thing.