Lion hunting SA

[Vintageguy]

Vintageguy, we have very different experiences with Pheasant and I will take you at your word that You’ve hunted both (wild & pen raised) extensively. I also hunted both and enjoyed hunting both. For training my pointers & labs in NJ there was no choice because the last “wild pheasant” were gone by the 1990s - pen raised was the only option. I enjoyed the dog work, and eating the pen raised pheasant too. Then once a year we flew our dogs out to Kansas and later South Dakota because Wild Kansas pheasant population also declined. Here has been my experience and that of my friends:
1). The birds “look” identical, beautiful, although wild pheasant tended to be a little smaller in both Kansas & SD, especially compared to pen raised birds over 6 months of age.
2). Wild birds “erupt” in flight faster - even in the rain, where as our dogs (labs) often caught Wet pen raised with no shots fired. Wild pheasant also often flew farther - 300-400 yrds and more vs the typical 100-200 of a pen raised.
3). Spooky - I’ve never seen a pen raised bird flush 400 yards away because you slammed your truck door....but in SD during late season hunts it happend almost every time we drove & parked at a new farm. Frustrating but An amazing sight to see - sometimes over 100 birds flush like a giant covey of quail at the far end of a field, all before your even got your dog out of his crate.
I still like hunting pen raised birds and couldn’t imagine getting my dogs trained without them. Pen Raised pheasant look exactly like Wild Pheasant just like Sylvester Stallone looks like “a real boxer”....the difference becomes obvious when you Put-them in-the-ring with the real thing.

Hank buck, the birds I release are exactly that, released, and not set. I’ve raised game birds my entire adult life and pheasants are the best by far for training. Bobwhites stink. Very erratic, one day behaving as wild and the next far from it. But pheasants raised and released learn quickly. I have one that has been a local legend having survived 4 seasons before disappearing. This past Saturday a friend and I went out to shoot rifles and he asked what the birds were flushing at 100 yards as we walked towards my range, pheasants. They also behave as wild at roosting time making quite the fuss then flushing and quietly gliding off to roost setting straight down at which time they sit dead tight. All this to draw attention to where they are not and to air wash themselves and minimize scent by not walking about once they pitch in. Of course, this behavior won’t be observed with a day visit to a preserve as any holdover resident birds likely will leave the field as new birds are set for the hunters. Your experience is obviously different from mine but I would add I’ve no desire to visit the typical preserve anymore because of the difference.

 

[Tanks]

.... i say again if you have done this hunt then i respect your different opinion but too many of you speak of that which you don’t know…bring the heat i have little respect for those type of non experience contributors only their opinion

I have not committed murder, but in my opinion, it is not a good thing. I also have not driven while drunk and I also think that is not a good idea.

One does not have to experience every immoral or unadvisable act prior to having an opinion on them.

 

[dchum]

Very true. However, I actually believe we do agree to some extent, even though you seem to think otherwise. I said I do prefer wild lion hunting over CBL. Only difference is that I also see why hunters/farmers etc want to do a CBL. Also as per my first post, for this exact reason per our discussion herein is also why I would be hesitant to do a cbl. So, lets leave it at that, who knows we might meet in future and have a laugh beer and proper chat rather than having typed, misunderstood rants.

I’ll be in Dallas for DSC

Nothing personal ever! We are lucky we get to go Back and Forth about such things!

 

[HankBuck]

Hank buck, the birds I release are exactly that, released, and not set. I’ve raised game birds my entire adult life and pheasants are the best by far for training. Bobwhites stink. Very erratic, one day behaving as wild and the next far from it. But pheasants raised and released learn quickly. I have one that has been a local legend having survived 4 seasons before disappearing. This past Saturday a friend and I went out to shoot rifles and he asked what the birds were flushing at 100 yards as we walked towards my range, pheasants. They also behave as wild at roosting time making quite the fuss then flushing and quietly gliding off to roost setting straight down at which time they sit dead tight. All this to draw attention to where they are not and to air wash themselves and minimize scent by not walking about once they pitch in. Of course, this behavior won’t be observed with a day visit to a preserve as any holdover resident birds likely will leave the field as new birds are set for the hunters. Your experience is obviously different from mine but I would add I’ve no desire to visit the typical preserve anymore because of the difference.

VintageGuy, if pheasant could behave as you claim - with any consistency - then States like NJ, PA, MD and more recently Kansas, could easily release pen raised stock and “repopulate” their decimated (extinct in NJ) pheasant populations. NJ releases 1000s of pheasant each year and ALL dead by February. The best places to Fox hunt in NJ - any preserve or State Game lands where pheasant are released, free meals of birds that often die after a heavy Winter rain. If you have developed a “strain” of hearty wild-type-birds then Please sell them (for $$millions$$) to NJ and every other State that Hasn’t been able to figure out how to do it. They (the States & biologists) don’t know what caused the die off that stated in the 1970s — then quail by 2000s, and Now Grouse “closed season”. Only “theories” exist and I’m sure you are aware the one of those theories is disease spread by “released pen raised birds”? Wow - aren’t we supposed to discuss CBL lions somewhere in this thread?? I screwed this up

 

[Vintageguy]

They raise some beautiful big maned lions in RSA, lol.
I don’t know why they are not successful. I’ve heard globs of theories. My hens act no different from wild hens and my friends who have also hunted wild pheasants for years concur but they don’t raise chicks to maturity here. A friend took some from me and put them in a flight pen overgrown in high grass and they did raise successfully and he gave me back the juveniles that fall but the few we’ve seen about all disappear, chicks and hens, by September 1st? The cocks are the only ones that seem capable of making it year to year. We’ve had many head scratching conversations about it believe me. My theory on the cocks making it had been their size and strength makes them harder targets for raptors of which we have an abundance. But I for the life of me can’t explain some hens hatching clutches and then all disappearing. One thing is clear though, if you have ever seen a green melanistic mutant pheasant, those cockbirds are consistently hardy and capable of making it. Sadly though the melanistic hens are not. The green pheasants also aren’t the table fare the ring necks are, but man are they tough.
Honestly I think predators, ground and avian are the most likely reason. When I was a kid avian predators were much less prevalent and ground predators were hunted and trapped by everyone. Now if I release a covey of quail within an hour half a dozen hawks will be circling the field. My last trip to South Dakota I had multiple instances of nothing but foxes leaving the cover ahead of me and ran into a guy at a gas station with a little pickup full of coon from his trap line. Nowadays people who trap are few and far between.
I was addicted to grouse hunting my whole life but spend more time chasing big game due to the crash of grouse. Sad because it’s small game that was accessible to everyone and it has hurt the hunting community now that much of it is gone.

 

[375Fox]

VintageGuy, if pheasant could behave as you claim - with any consistency - then States like NJ, PA, MD and more recently Kansas, could easily release pen raised stock and “repopulate” their decimated (extinct in NJ) pheasant populations. NJ releases 1000s of pheasant each year and ALL dead by February. The best places to Fox hunt in NJ - any preserve or State Game lands where pheasant are released, free meals of birds that often die after a heavy Winter rain. If you have developed a “strain” of hearty wild-type-birds then Please sell them (for $$millions$$) to NJ and every other State that Hasn’t been able to figure out how to do it. They (the States & biologists) don’t know what caused the die off that stated in the 1970s — then quail by 2000s, and Now Grouse “closed season”. Only “theories” exist and I’m sure you are aware the one of those theories is disease spread by “released pen raised birds”? Wow - aren’t we supposed to discuss CBL lions somewhere in this thread?? I screwed this up

I didn’t realize there was that much discussion for not having wild pheasants in most areas. Seems pretty simple to me, bounties on bird of prey ended by the 1970’s and that coincides with decreasing pheasant numbers. Also farming practices have changed leaving less cover and the forest (at least in Pennsylvania) is much more mid-growth without ground cover. The pheasants are still equally stupid as they were.
Grouse are a different story. Less suitable habitat definitely reduced their numbers as forest grew up and the ground cover wasn’t there, but if you read the PA game commission’s studies on grouse chicks and West Nile virus it’s scary how susceptible they are to it.

 

[HankBuck]

I didn’t realize there was that much discussion for not having wild pheasants in most areas. Seems pretty simple to me, bounties on bird of prey ended by the 1970’s and that coincides with decreasing pheasant numbers. Also farming practices have changed leaving less cover and the forest (at least in Pennsylvania) is much more mid-growth without ground cover. The pheasants are still equally stupid as they were.
Grouse are a different story. Less suitable habitat definitely reduced their numbers as forest grew up and the ground cover wasn’t there, but if you read the PA game commission’s studies on grouse chicks and West Nile virus it’s scary how susceptible they are to it.

375Fox: Good reasonable theory and mentioned many times by older hunters. But the predator increase and decrease of raptors doesn’t add up - Turkeys are now thriving in NJ after being extinct for 100+ years and coon & fox don’t seem to affect their recovery ....at least not to the point of wiping them out. In NJ or PA you couldn’t legally shoot a raptor since the 1950s and DDT wiped out more raptors then shooting ever did anyway - DDT was legal thru the 1970s and Farmers still shoot raptors regardless of the laws. Pheasant was Never a native bird to America yet it thrived with “minimal” help after being introduced around 1900, spread across the Country, millions shot every year and they thrived in hot or even cold snowy areas....incredible birds and Now - Nothing can save them even on highly controlled carefully managed properties. But, getting back to original thread topic: CBL lions —- could it be the Lions are killing them off??

 

[375Fox]

375Fox: Good reasonable theory and mentioned many times by older hunters. But the predator increase and decrease of raptors doesn’t add up - Turkeys are now thriving in NJ after being extinct for 100+ years and coon & fox don’t seem to affect their recovery ....at least not to the point of wiping them out. In NJ or PA you couldn’t legally shoot a raptor since the 1950s and DDT wiped out more raptors then shooting ever did anyway - DDT was legal thru the 1970s and Farmers still shoot raptors regardless of the laws. Pheasant was Never a native bird to America yet it thrived with “minimal” help after being introduced around 1900, spread across the Country, millions shot every year and they thrived in hot or even cold snowy areas....incredible birds and Now - Nothing can save them even on highly controlled carefully managed properties. But, getting back to original thread topic: CBL lions —- could it be the Lions are killing them off??

I found this article that discusses bounties on great horned owls through 1964. I used to release pheasants for my bird dogs. They would typically be dead within the week from red tail hawks, sometimes even one or two that day. I’ve never seen a Turkey killed by a hawk or owl, but I’m very surprised they can successfully nest with the massive increase in raccoon numbers. Trapping upland for fox and coyote, 20 years ago (when raccoon stil had fur value) I rarely accidentally caught one, now it seems a challenge not to. Our turkey numbers are down considerably from the highs I’ve seen but they fluctuate year to year. Stocking a few CBL lions for 7 days probably wouldn’t hurt the population of any of those species any further. No changes happened in Ohio 10 years ago there during the Police’s CBL lion and tiger “hunt”

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/InformationResources/Documents/Pennylvania%20Game%20News%20February%202020%20Bounties%20the%20Rise%20and%20Fall.pdf

 

[mark-hunter]

Pheasant was Never a native bird to America yet it thrived with “minimal” help after being introduced around 1900, spread across the Country, millions shot every year and they thrived in hot or even cold snowy areas....incredible birds and Now - Nothing can save them even on highly controlled carefully managed properties.

Sorry for a bit of off topic, but this caught my interest.
What is happening with pheasant population in USA?

 

[Hunt anything]

Sorry for a bit of off topic, but this caught my interest.
What is happening with pheasant population in USA?

An explosion in predators when fur prices plummeted not as many people trapping, more efficient farming practices, fence row to fence row cultivation taking up a lot of cover and the recovering of raptor populations after the ban of DDT. Just guessing of coarse.

 

[mark-hunter]

And consequently, pheasant population is dropping?

 

[Inline6]

One could hire a prostitute or court a women to a long term relationship. One will be MUCH cheaper than the other. One will give you instant satisfaction that will quickly disappear, one will be hard work and need a lot of commitment to see it through. The marriage could fail, and money could be lost. Does that mean we shouldn’t drive for the latter because it will cost more and may not work out?

I thought the idea was you paid them to leave?

 

[AimSmall]

Do they shoot Captive Bred Pheasant in Africa?

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I know this: with every thread that gets started and discussed about lions, I realize I really do want to hunt lions just once in my life. I am giving it more serious thought than I ever have.

I have no opinion on pheasants, other than they are tasty. I was born and raised in KS and I've never shot a pheasant, though I have caught a handful in coyote traps. No idea if they were bred or wild but they were definitely captive by the time I got there.

 

[375Fox]

And consequently, pheasant population is dropping?

The primary pheasant areas in the United States are the central and Midwest States. Those couple posts are about the Northeast US. There were good populations of wild pheasants in the 1950s and 60s but started to disappear after the 1970s I’m told. Areas where my Grandfather’s hunted successfully have zero wild pheasants today.

 

[375Fox]

I know this: with every thread that gets started and discussed about lions, I realize I really do want to hunt lions just once in my life. I am giving it more serious thought than I ever have.

I have no opinion on pheasants, other than they are tasty. I was born and raised in KS and I've never shot a pheasant, though I have caught a handful in coyote traps. No idea if they were bred or wild but they were definitely captive by the time I got there.

I understand hunters that have done these hunts defending them, but I can’t understand how anyone can decide they want to shoot a CBL lion when so much information is out there on what these hunts are. If I could give this practice any praise, after the documentary Blood Lions came out, it’s probably the most honest put and take hunting occurring in South Africa. You can see how they are raised on SAPA’s YouTube videos, you can read the SAPA norms and standards for hunting. The only aspect not openly discussed is the connection to the Chinese bone trade.

 

[mark-hunter]

The primary pheasant areas in the United States are the central and Midwest States. Those couple posts are about the Northeast US. There were good populations of wild pheasants in the 1950s and 60s but started to disappear after the 1970s I’m told. Areas where my Grandfather’s hunted successfully have zero wild pheasants today.

In my place I noticed following:
My grandfather hunting mostly birds, including pheasants. He had exclusively bird dogs.
All hunting he did within 50 miles radius, local hunting areas.
It was not uncommon for pheasant to land in our backyard.
That was in the seventies and early eighties.

By now, if I want to hunt pheasants I need to hunt in the north of the country. In my local areas, there is no more pheasants.
What happened is change in local hunting cultures. And "commercialization" of hunting

before pheasants were raised in pens, hunting areas managed from predators, pheasants were popular, and taken care off, wild population was helped with occasional release of birds in spring.
Group hunts for predators organized periodically throughout the season.

Now, nobody wants to do this any more.

Main hunting dogs are those for boar driven hunts. Nobody locally has bird dogs anymore.
For feathered game, main game is now is woodcock, or snipe.
That is migratory bird that stops over during migration to south.

No need to work for this one, it just "drops from the sky".
Foreign hunters come and pay to hunt woodcock. They bring their dogs. Guides make between 50 to 100 euros per day. The hunting clubs get good money for selling hunting rights in the season in their blocks to groups of foreign hunters.
If local hunters go hunting, they go with rifles, for the boars. Many do not keep shotguns any more. If having a shotgun, its kept in the mothballs in the locker.

Nobody cares for pheasants any more, and they disappeared.
The culture and passion for pheasant remained in the north of Croatia. And I go there.
One of my favorite hunts.

Below are photos from my winter pheasant hunt, this December, and a woodcock - earlier this year.
I always take one or two winter pheasant trips with few of my friends.

I apologize to forum members for of topic... but pheasants are my passion, could not resist.

 

[Hunt anything]

And consequently, pheasant population is dropping?

Sorry, kind of left that out.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Reading Americans' opinions on the South African game industry is wonderfully entertaining. Perhaps I should add my two cents worth. The methods used (including the breeding of lions) have, without a doubt, increased the number of game animals to above that of where it was at least 140 years ago. It is the diametric opposite of what happened in every other African country (in this instance, Namibia counts as South Africa's extra province, like it used to be). Whether the methods employed please everybody is a moot point. I don't know the numbers, but I would venture to guess that there are more Lions on the Freestate than in the rest of Africa combined. The fact that some are farmed might be unappetizing to most (including myself). However, you are a blind fool not to recognise the benefits of having a large pool of genetically diverse, disease-free (TB, FIV) lions roaming about. Being an idealist might work in America, with all your resources and well-functioning government, but we Africans must make our own plans here. The South African plan works. There is no denying it, whether you like it or not. Denying it only makes you a fool. Or perhaps an armchair idealist.

 

[Piet-Vis]

I understand hunters that have done these hunts defending them, but I can’t understand how anyone can decide they want to shoot a CBL lion when so much information is out there on what these hunts are. If I could give this practice any praise, after the documentary Blood Lions came out, it’s probably the most honest put and take hunting occurring in South Africa. You can see how they are raised on SAPA’s YouTube videos, you can read the SAPA norms and standards for hunting. The only aspect not openly discussed is the connection to the Chinese bone trade.

If only everybody were lucky enough to be rich enough to afford $ 100,000 hunts. What a fantastic place the world would be...