Lion hunting SA

[revturbo9967]

However, you are a blind fool not to recognise the benefits of having a large pool of genetically diverse, disease-free (TB, FIV) lions roaming about. Being an idealist might work in America, with all your resources and well-functioning government, but we Africans must make our own plans here. The South African plan works. There is no denying it, whether you like it or not. Denying it only makes you a fool. Or perhaps an armchair idealist.

How does a population of genetically diverse, disease free lions help the over all health of all lions, if they were only raised to be shot anyways?

You should probably take the American armchair idealist opinions a little more seriously, because the ones running our government and anti hunting groups are the ones who have the power to limit or modify your South African plan.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Reading Americans' opinions on the South African game industry is wonderfully entertaining. Perhaps I should add my two cents worth. The methods used (including the breeding of lions) have, without a doubt, increased the number of game animals to above that of where it was at least 140 years ago. It is the diametric opposite of what happened in every other African country (in this instance, Namibia counts as South Africa's extra province, like it used to be). Whether the methods employed please everybody is a moot point. I don't know the numbers, but I would venture to guess that there are more Lions on the Freestate than in the rest of Africa combined. The fact that some are farmed might be unappetizing to most (including myself). However, you are a blind fool not to recognise the benefits of having a large pool of genetically diverse, disease-free (TB, FIV) lions roaming about. Being an idealist might work in America, with all your resources and well-functioning government, but we Africans must make our own plans here. The South African plan works. There is no denying it, whether you like it or not. Denying it only makes you a fool. Or perhaps an armchair idealist.

I don’t think “roaming” is the correct term to use..

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

If only everybody were lucky enough to be rich enough to afford $ 100,000 hunts. What a fantastic place the world would be...

So affordability is a justification for unethical practices? Good to know….

I always find it very interesting that human nature is human nature no matter the age or century (no matter how prevalent it is in today’s younger generations, there is nothing new under the sun). The desire for instant gratification, aided by said affordability, is ever present and we all succumb to it at some point. I think this is the primary motivation in CBL “hunting”.

I also find it interesting (I’m assuming here) that the majority of AH members most likely teach their children to do things the right way or do without and yet we see a significant amount of support for CBL “hunting”………..

 

[WAB]

In my place I noticed following:
My grandfather hunting mostly birds, including pheasants. He had exclusively bird dogs.
All hunting he did within 50 miles radius, local hunting areas.
It was not uncommon for pheasant to land in our backyard.
That was in the seventies and early eighties.

By now, if I want to hunt pheasants I need to hunt in the north of the country. In my local areas, there is no more pheasants.
What happened is change in local hunting cultures. And "commercialization" of hunting

before pheasants were raised in pens, hunting areas managed from predators, pheasants were popular, and taken care off, wild population was helped with occasional release of birds in spring.
Group hunts for predators organized periodically throughout the season.

Now, nobody wants to do this any more.

Main hunting dogs are those for boar driven hunts. Nobody locally has bird dogs anymore.
For feathered game, main game is now is woodcock, or snipe.
That is migratory bird that stops over during migration to south.

No need to work for this one, it just "drops from the sky".
Foreign hunters come and pay to hunt woodcock. They bring their dogs. Guides make between 50 to 100 euros per day. The hunting clubs get good money for selling hunting rights in the season in their blocks to groups of foreign hunters.
If local hunters go hunting, they go with rifles, for the boars. Many do not keep shotguns any more. If having a shotgun, its kept in the mothballs in the locker.

Nobody cares for pheasants any more, and they disappeared.
The culture and passion for pheasant remained in the north of Croatia. And I go there.
One of my favorite hunts.

Below are photos from my winter pheasant hunt, this December, and a woodcock - earlier this year.
I always take one or two winter pheasant trips with few of my friends.

I apologize to forum members for of topic... but pheasants are my passion, could not resist.

View attachment 576743View attachment 576744View attachment 576745

No apology necessary, we wander all over the place on these threads. I was amazed at the number of pheasant in Romania this year. I may try to do a combination hunt for fallow and pheasant at some point.

 

[IvW]

So strange that the outfitters and PH's and especially the country get all the flack yet there are many "clients" who willingly participate....

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

So strange that the outfitters and PH's and especially the country get all the flack yet there are many "clients" who willingly participate....

All equally at fault (sort of) in my book. Say 60% fault on the pros and 40% on the clients.

Also, cbl is on legal in rsa is it not? So no need to even mention the country in your post..

 

[IvW]

Same as drugs.....no users no drugs.....

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Same as drugs.....no users no drugs.....

No greedy supplier looking to capitalize on unethical behavior and the supply is gone. There will always be bad actors of course, human nature.

Again, the blame is equal. Or nearly so. The supplier is more at fault than the customer by a slim margin.

 

[Hunt anything]

How does a population of genetically diverse, disease free lions help the over all health of all lions, if they were only raised to be shot anyways?

You should probably take the American armchair idealist opinions a little more seriously, because the ones running our government and anti hunting groups are the ones who have the power to limit or modify your South African plan.

It doesn’t unless they will be released to the wild and then we end up with problems like in the US, right now the battle is in the west and wolves in Colorado and grizzly bears in Washington state.
We only need to look at the ungulate populations in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana to see how well that worked out. Pretty well for the wolves and not so good for the ranchers, elk, moose and deer populations.

 

[WAB]

I don’t understand what all the angst is about. How is it different to raise a lion to be hunted than to raise a cow to be slaughtered for meat? I may not choose to participate, but I’m not going to condemn someone who does.

 

[Piet-Vis]

I don’t understand what all the angst is about. How is it different to raise a lion to be hunted than to raise a cow to be slaughtered for meat? I may not choose to participate, but I’m not going to condemn someone who does.

Yes, it is strange that some value one life more than another. But it is so. Read the comments on the thread and see that some people think a Lion is worth more than an Impala. What is the difference? From an economic perspective, quite a lot - selling Impala won't get your children to University, but selling Lions will. I wonder if the armchair critics are equally moral and ethical in their areas of business where they evidently make enough money to be able to afford $100,000 hunts?

 

[revturbo9967]

I don’t understand what all the angst is about. How is it different to raise a lion to be hunted than to raise a cow to be slaughtered for meat? I may not choose to participate, but I’m not going to condemn someone who does.

If these outfits were open and honest about what they were doing , raising an animal to be released and shot, I don’t think many would have much to say about this. But there is a huge amount of deception behind these “hunts” which is what makes so many have negative views.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Apparently people are outright condoning put and take now..

And being intellectually dishonest by trying to make this more complicated than it is..

 

[375Fox]

I don’t understand what all the angst is about. How is it different to raise a lion to be hunted than to raise a cow to be slaughtered for meat? I may not choose to participate, but I’m not going to condemn someone who does.

No one is saying it’s wrong to kill a CBL lion that I can see in this thread. My objection is that this is called and marketed as hunting. I agree with the joint statement that the practice is damaging to the reputation of hunters. If you want to farm raise a lion for the bone trade, raise it, and shoot it at the farm. Don’t transport it from pen to larger farm and sell the harvest as a hunt. I’ve read a lot CBL is done the right way now. What I can see there is no verification that it’s done right, just a lot of repeating that line. To me, it lost its chance to be done right when CBL hunts were sold as rouge lions from Botswana, incorporated lions into both cub petting and “hunting” industry, incorporated “hunting” into the bone trade. The latest marketing stunt appears to have been these “hunts” were going to be banned. It seems no one defending these hunts wants to visit the lion farm or select their lion as part of the experience. Many have their blinders on what they don’t want to see.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I had a very successful hunt for lion in the Omay in Zimbabwe. We also had big males roaring out side our camp every night this year! One note of caution when booking a lion hunt is the cost of bait. A lion hunt will usually be 15-21 days and there may be pre-baiting fees to pay for as well. Make a spreadsheet! Additionally to book a hunt like this I highly recommend (or demand If I knew you better) that you attend DSC and SCI conventions and sit down with the outfitters to book a hunt like this.

I described my lion hunt at the time as a hunters climb of Everest. It is the most exhilarating hunt of the all!

Regards,
Philip

Sorry, but I am really unable to wrap my head around shooting anything over bait as "exhilarating." Guess I should give it a try ... nah ... I don't see that happening.

 

[375Fox]

Yes, it is strange that some value one life more than another. But it is so. Read the comments on the thread and see that some people think a Lion is worth more than an Impala. What is the difference? From an economic perspective, quite a lot - selling Impala won't get your children to University, but selling Lions will. I wonder if the armchair critics are equally moral and ethical in their areas of business where they evidently make enough money to be able to afford $100,000 hunts?

Shooting put and take lions that were raised on small enclosures as livestock their entire life is damaging to the reputation of hunters long term, especially when it’s combined with lion petting and Chinese bone trade. Hunting lions on a sustainable quota can be defended as conservation. Nothing about one species being more valuable than the other.
As far as morals and ethics are concerned, I’d ask the question for those outfitters that participate in the CBL industry what other unethical practices are they willing to accept? Self sustaining herds especially when it comes to buffalo, sable, and other in demand animals seems to be a very flexible definition in South Africa. If they have no objection to stocking a lion 7 days prior to the “hunt” I doubt they have any issue stocking a buffalo bull either. Maybe it crossed in from Botswana too? It’s damaging to the reputation of South Africa whether you want to realize it or not. Many of the hunts being offered in South Africa are more comparable to Texas than the rest of the continent.

 

[dchum]

Sorry, but I am really unable to wrap my head around shooting anything over bait as "exhilarating." Guess I should give it a try ... nah ... I don't see that happening.

Go get real close to your 404 Jef build scope and pull the trigger again. Maybe you might see it from a different perspective!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Go get real close to your 404 Jef build scope and pull the trigger again. Maybe you might see it from a different perspective!

If I was blind (and I'm half way there) I don't think I could find a way to see shooting anything over bait as exilerating. How can anyone get excited blasting a bear chewing on a blue plastic barrel full of donuts? Some guys do, but I couldn't.

Same guys who lure a lion to bait and shoot it will condemn someone else for tracking down one released from a pen. In my opinion that's the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[375Fox]

Same guys who lure a lion to bait and shoot it will condemn someone else for tracking down one released from a pen. In my opinion that's the pot calling the kettle black.

One puts thousands of dollars back into conservation and protecting hundreds of thousands of acres of wild areas. One goes back into raising more lions to be harvested as livestock. I think dchum gave you some good advice.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Shooting put and take lions that were raised on small enclosures as livestock their entire life is damaging to the reputation of hunters long term, especially when it’s combined with lion petting and Chinese bone trade. Hunting lions on a sustainable quota can be defended as conservation. Nothing about one species being more valuable than the other.
As far as morals and ethics are concerned, I’d ask the question for those outfitters that participate in the CBL industry what other unethical practices are they willing to accept? Self sustaining herds especially when it comes to buffalo, sable, and other in demand animals seems to be a very flexible definition in South Africa. If they have no objection to stocking a lion 7 days prior to the “hunt” I doubt they have any issue stocking a buffalo bull either. Maybe it crossed in from Botswana too? It’s damaging to the reputation of South Africa whether you want to realize it or not. Many of the hunts being offered in South Africa are more comparable to Texas than the rest of the continent.

So why would it matter if ranches get stocked before the season? Where do you expect the 60" Kudud bulls that Americans seem to prefer to come from, born and bred on every ranch? Really? It's a beautiful industry - Some guys are great at breeding and rearing, and some are great at entertaining foreigners. Very few pieces of land in the RSA are big enough for what you envision as ideal. Game is an industry in South Africa - not a hobby for the well-heeled. If this had not been the case, South Africa would have been in the same state as the rest of Africa. Nothing alive outside of a National Park, or few GMA's over which outfitters have to guard day and night to keep the locals out.
I left SA (North of Limpopo) a few decades ago, and I am not what would be described as a "client." So, I have never seen an advert for an SA lion hunt (although I have hunted PG on "Lion Farm" in the Kalahari). I would be interested to hear if any Forum members were "lured" to SA through false claims such as a "Rogue Botswana Lion." I'm not saying it can't happen. There are charlatans everywhere. I'm interested in how prevalent such practices would be.