Lion hunting SA

[Red Leg]

Just so we’re clear, it seems that the majority of AH members and most likely the majority of non-AH members (if AH membership is a representative of African hunters as a whole) that hunt Africa are now fully in favor of put and take?

I could be wrong. I hope there’s a silent majority that’s in the no camp but if this thread is any indication I think there are more in the yes camp than the no.

If that is the case then it seems like a pivotal moment..

I suspect the answer is absolutely not. As I and others have noted, the major hunting organizations in which many of the defenders of the practice here have membership are absolutely opposed to CBL shooting. Both do support 'estate" hunting, but you would be hard pressed to find any of the leadership supporting "put and take" practices of anything but game birds. As I noted earlier, I find a clear difference between a glorified chicken and an apex predator. Most people do. You will also find the leadership of those organizations find a distinct difference between legality and ethics. I absolutely agree with that - and not just in the realm of hunting.

AH has become a forum where the practice and experience is participated in and lauded by a portion of the membership. I have no idea if they represent a majority, but I do think a majority have little appetite to denigrate another member's experience. An even larger percentage of the membership clearly feel it is not worth the argument. You'll find some of us voiced our perceptions once and moved on - a tit for tat argument accomplishes nothing at all.

 

[dchum]

My man. Just because someone feels different than you doesn’t mean they are misled.

I’m not a CBL fan. I just see the group think here get going and the pitchforks drive me nuts.

Also, the divide and conquer strategy is real. It’s like gun control in the US. I see some hunters try to appease the left with “common sense.” Gun reforms. Most are probably reasonable and could do some good. But the antis aren’t for common sense. They will use the good will and steamroll towards total banning of guns. Zero doubt.

Same with this. I’m probably against CBL too. But this vitriol and mob mentality is helping the antis. Just like @Philip Glass said earlier.

You are using the argument that if lions didn’t have value the locals would kill them.

That has morning to do with cbl and the scenario on game ranches. The issue is not that we feel different , it’s that you are just talking about two different things. It will be hard to come to an understanding if that’s how people think it works.

 

[revturbo9967]

I will tell you. If the animals there didn’t have a monetary value, the locals I met, both white and black, would kill the animals and farm the land.

Conservationists come from rich countries with nothing else to do. Now, I am a conservationist. I think it’s a noble cause. But the only reason these animals still exist is the financial gain they provide to each people.

This isn’t endemic to Africa. We killed off many many species in th US until a basic level of wealth/comfort was obtained. All deer were exterminated in my home state of Alabama by 1950. Luckily, we had the resources to restock them, but for one reason. Hunting.

Selectively targeting old, past breeding age bulls and cows is what gives all of the animals in that particular area value. Shooting animals behind a fence that were put there for the taking only puts money into the land owners pocket, and the farmer who raised it. If they were releasing some farm raised lions into the wild, while hunting some of the same litter, I would call that conservation. I do not categorize all hunting practices as conservation.

 

[revturbo9967]

Unfortunately, yes. There is little political will from most African countries to conserve. The great gain gains that were made in South Africa in regards to game numbers was when legislation was changed that moved the ownership of game from the state to owner after a government regulation fence was put up. This incentivised landowners to change the property use of marginal land from domestic livestock to game. The landowners could then keep game as an alternative source of revenue. Foreign trophy hunters are but a small part of the industry, including recreational tourism, domestic hunters, and a few foreign hunters. There is also big push to work towards the export of venison.
African landowners, much like American or European ones, need to earn a return on their investment.

If South Africa only wants to run a farm to hunt business model for profit, I likely will never hunt there.

 

[Hunt anything]

If South Africa only wants to run a farm to hunt business model for profit, I likely will never hunt there.

If you do your homework you can find large RSA properties with self sustaining herds of most everything. Not sure if I’d try crocodile unless I could find a hunt that has wild crocs, never researched it so kind of in the dark on that.

 

[Philip Glass]

MR Glass, that was very well said!

Thank you!

 

[Piet-Vis]

If South Africa only wants to run a farm to hunt business model for profit, I likely will never hunt there.

I am flabbergasted by your comment. Do you mean that African landowners cannot earn a return on investment? Do a tremendous amount of work without compensation? Where do you think the fuel that propels the Land Cruisers comes from? What sort of environment do you suggest? Some sort of Communism? Or another form of colonialism - We Africans slaving away in the sun at the beck and call of a foreign hunter? Where will my food come from and will my children have to remain illiterate?

 

[Biddleman]

Didn’t Ted Nugent catch that and write a song.

Cheers to you! Now I can't get the song out of my head. Best comment in this pissing match.

 

[revturbo9967]

I am flabbergasted by your comment. Do you mean that African landowners cannot earn a return on investment? Do a tremendous amount of work without compensation? Where do you think the fuel that propels the Land Cruisers comes from? What sort of environment do you suggest? Some sort of Communism? Or another form of colonialism - We Africans slaving away in the sun at the beck and call of a foreign hunter? Where will my food come from and will my children have to remain illiterate?

Stay flabbergasted. I don’t understand why the South African model must farm to supplement animals and other countries do not.

 

[PietVis]

Stay flabbergasted. I don’t understand why the South African model must farm to supplement animals and other countries do not.

I suspect that you have not had the opportunity to travel extensively (to the non-touristy area) in Africa?
Edit - and do you think the Outfitters get their areas in the rest of Africa for free? That they don't pay through their noses for every concession? And that they don't work for money, and that they PH work for fun?

 

[MontanaPat]

I suspect the answer is absolutely not. As I and others have noted, the major hunting organizations in which many of the defenders of the practice here have membership are absolutely opposed to CBL shooting. Both do support 'estate" hunting, but you would be hard pressed to find any of the leadership supporting "put and take" practices of anything but game birds. As I noted earlier, I find a clear difference between a glorified chicken and an apex predator. Most people do. You will also find the leadership of those organizations find a distinct difference between legality and ethics. I absolutely agree with that - and not just in the realm of hunting.

AH has become a forum where the practice and experience is participated in and lauded by a portion of the membership. I have no idea if they represent a majority, but I do think a majority have little appetite to denigrate another member's experience. An even larger percentage of the membership clearly feel it is not worth the argument. You'll find some of us voiced our perceptions once and moved on - a tit for tat argument accomplishes nothing at all.

Very well said

 

[revturbo9967]

I suspect that you have not had the opportunity to travel extensively (to the non-touristy area) in Africa?
Edit - and do you think the Outfitters get their areas in the rest of Africa for free? That they don't pay through their noses for every concession? And that they don't work for money, and that they PH work for fun?

I do know what they pay for these concessions, and in some cases more than they have hunts sold for that year, but that has absolutely nothing to do with farming animals. My point is other countries can manage game without farming. Although I have sympathy for those trying to make a living over there, pushing a farmed product and marketing it as hunting so those can make a living isn’t the best looking model in the eyes of the foreign hunting community.

What you have described is a hunting industry, which is where ethics and morality go out the window due to greed or survival.

 

[Shakka]

My objections to how a CBL lion gets raised leaves you utterly cold? How am I wrong on how a CBL lion gets raised? This debate isn’t about hunting behind fences. The merits of fencing to protect wildlife inside could be argued and I’d agree with you on many points most likely. CBL however has nothing to do with conservation or establishing populations of wildlife in fenced areas. Lions are bred and raised in breeding facilities before being transported to hunting area and shot by a hunter a short time after. There is no attempt to establish lion numbers in the area. It’s purely put and take. You are trying to muddy the waters and make this about fenced hunting. I said in another post you can choose a sustainable quota hunting model where hunting dollars are used to protect the area (doesn’t matter fenced or open) and wildlife within the area or you can choose a put and take model like CBL where the money goes back into raising animals simply to meet demand nothing into conservation. The two models are at odds with each other if hunters want to say they support conservation.

+1

 

[Macduff]

An even larger percentage of the membership clearly feel it is not worth the argument. You'll find some of us voiced our perceptions once and moved on - a tit for tat argument accomplishes nothing at all.

I think this is probably correct.

I don't love the idea of a canned hunt but I also don't have strong feelings either way. I can't see myself paying for a CBL hunt, but I'm not going to get too worked up over it. I have a feeling this is probably a pretty representative viewpoint.

Beyond that, those who have participated in that sort of hunting are more likely to defend their hunts, so of course you're going to hear more from them. When it's painted as a moral or ethical issue, you're going to see folks defend themselves. I'd do the same thing if someone called my actions into question. It doesn't mean I'll agree with them but I understand where they're coming from.

So yeah, I wouldn't use the loudness of one side as a real indicator of the overall mood.

 

[LivingTheDream]

One thing I have pondered, and I am typing on my phone so please forgive me.

Is if we look at the Scimitar oryx, which was extinct in the wild and essentially just raised in hunting farms in Texas, some of those are now being released back into wild places in Africa.

This is something I never thought would happen, and there was almost a law passed probably more than a decade ago in the US that almost made hunting them illegal on ranches. This would have essentially lead to them being reduced in great numbers to the point where there could have never had a population to be released in the wild. Of course the stories I have read don't credit the hunting community but that would never happen anyway. But it didn't happen overnight and the ranches selling hunts didn't contribute directly (anti poaching, wild concessions, etc) to conservation but by maintaining a viable population they ultimately did.

I think the point I am trying to make is how do we define conservation value and what that value might be in the future. I think there is a lot of unknowns, especially as it is applies to wide open wild spaces and having genetic diversity.

I guess this is a real can of worms but I would be interested to see what could be done with Tigers and if they could be re-wild. I just think humans are too creative and if given financial incentive there isn't anything that can't be done.

 

[C.W. Richter]

OK... I can't take it anymore... I believe it's supposed to be ROGUE lion, though I confess to being unfamiliar with any specific story about said lion. If it truly was a ROUGE lion, well, then, someone set me straight. And provide photos - that's be a funny looking lion to see. (that is directed at no one in particular; I have seen it in several places)

Michael Obama comes to mind.?

 

[mark-hunter]

Just so we’re clear, it seems that the majority of AH members and most likely the majority of non-AH members (if AH membership is a representative of African hunters as a whole) that hunt Africa are now fully in favor of put and take?

No.
Just to make definition: put and take means releasing animal to enclosed fence, just before hunter arrives.

Majority of AH members, I believe we are against that.

However there are risks, that I will try to explain from personal point of view.
If someone from another continent comes to South Africa, and participates in put and take hunt as client, without experience, there is no way he can identify that practice. He may as well be happy with a hunt. Lion or anything else.
The best way is to go with reputable outfitter, make his research, and hope for the best. Clarify all concerns prior the hunt.

South Africa is specific because of fences, and If I ever decide to hunt lion there, with all the research, and due diligence, being personally unexperienced in lion hunting, and considering the fact that most of hunting in south Africa is done in fence, I will say honestly I have no way to know how to make difference between wild managed lion, and put and take lion. Really I have no idea. Except to trust the outfitter, his reputation, and all my eventual earlier research. (Yes we can all read about differences between wild lions and CBL, but never the less, we need experience to identify the animal, especially at distance)

Having said all above, I still think that in future Africa there will be a growing need for captive bread species - not only lions, as true wildlife habitat is shrinking rapidly.

Whatever has been said on this thread, the fact remains that most successful conservation models are Namibian and South African models.

 

[375Fox]

No.
Just to make definition: put and take means releasing animal to enclosed fence, just before hunter arrives.

Majority of AH members, I believe we are against that.

However there are risks, that I will try to explain from personal point of view.
If someone from another continent comes to South Africa, and participates in put and take hunt as client, without experience, there is no way he can identify that practice. He may as well be happy with a hunt. Lion or anything else.
The best way is to go with reputable outfitter, make his research, and hope for the best. Clarify all concerns prior the hunt.

South Africa is specific because of fences, and If I ever decide to hunt lion there, with all the research, and due diligence, being personally unexperienced in lion hunting, and considering the fact that most of hunting in south Africa is done in fence, I will say honestly I have no way to know how to make difference between wild managed lion, and put and take lion. Really I have no idea. Except to trust the outfitter, his reputation, and all my eventual earlier research. (Yes we can all read about differences between wild lions and CBL, but never the less, we need experience to identify the animal, especially at distance)

Having said all above, I still think that in future Africa there will be a growing need for captive bread species - not only lions, as true wildlife habitat is shrinking rapidly.

Whatever has been said on this thread, the fact remains that most successful conservation models are Namibian and South African models.

Is that not exactly what happens in a CBL hunt? Lion is released 7 to 30 days before hunter arrives by the responses in this thread. As far as telling the difference between a CBL lion and a wild managed lion in South Africa. The price for a wild managed lion from a reserve large enough to sustain a breeding population of lions will approach that of wild lion hunts. You will not find a wild managed hunt for $3000 or $6000 like CBL they need to pay their way to stay on that reserve and for the game they killed to justify having the lions. CBL is so cheap because they are raised under controlled conditions and the release time where they can cause damage is short.

 

[dchum]

No.
Just to make definition: put and take means releasing animal to enclosed fence, just before hunter arrives.

Majority of AH members, I believe we are against that.

However there are risks, that I will try to explain from personal point of view.
If someone from another continent comes to South Africa, and participates in put and take hunt as client, without experience, there is no way he can identify that practice. He may as well be happy with a hunt. Lion or anything else.
The best way is to go with reputable outfitter, make his research, and hope for the best. Clarify all concerns prior the hunt.

South Africa is specific because of fences, and If I ever decide to hunt lion there, with all the research, and due diligence, being personally unexperienced in lion hunting, and considering the fact that most of hunting in south Africa is done in fence, I will say honestly I have no way to know how to make difference between wild managed lion, and put and take lion. Really I have no idea. Except to trust the outfitter, his reputation, and all my eventual earlier research. (Yes we can all read about differences between wild lions and CBL, but never the less, we need experience to identify the animal, especially at distance)

Having said all above, I still think that in future Africa there will be a growing need for captive bread species - not only lions, as true wildlife habitat is shrinking rapidly.

Whatever has been said on this thread, the fact remains that most successful conservation models are Namibian and South African models.

Namibia does not allow or will ever allow the captive bred raising of lions to then be released onto private property to be shot and killed. Namibia condones this practice.

The model youre speaking of is helping to create self sustaining herds of animals that produce and take care of themselves as if they are born Wild.

That is just not done with lions. Plain and simple. No outfitter offering CBL owns a ranch and puts lions out to make a pride to reproduce and have a natural heard. They are releasing a known individual that has bene pre paid for to be killed.

It’s not the same model as the impala herds or even sometimes the sable. Its just not.

Please stop saying “the model”. CBL is not a re population or re wilding” tool of any sorts. Super simple. That’s the issue

 

[375Fox]

I suspect that you have not had the opportunity to travel extensively (to the non-touristy area) in Africa?
Edit - and do you think the Outfitters get their areas in the rest of Africa for free? That they don't pay through their noses for every concession? And that they don't work for money, and that they PH work for fun?

I’m going to respond to this post because it bothers me more than your others. I have had the opportunity to hunt in many areas in Africa. The scale of poaching in some I found really worrisome. However, every country I’ve hunted in has had very different management of hunting areas. Hunting dollars are used to protect the wildlife living inside that area. South Africa is the only hunting industry that has convinced many a put and take farming replacement industry like CBL is necessary. Namibia has fences as well but manages the game sustainably inside the fence to imitate what would occur outside the fence. It has avoided the reputation damage South Africa has created for itself even though it has high fences as well.