Lion hunting SA

[MarkB]

I also read all these posts, many are same as the last and every thread that has anything to do with CBL.

I ADMIT I hunted a male class #1 CBL lion in 2021 with an outfitter who advertises on here. I was fully aware of the hunt type and style I would do, I did sign a ton of paperwork, really don't remember what each page specifics were, as in date of release?

There were more than my lion on the Kalahari ranch we hunted, lions WERE killing PG on their own, day before we left a well known US hunter and his wife arrived for the huge black maned male that we saw on a few occasions.

The hunt was all that was advertised, a little scripted, planned or choreographed more than I expected. It was my first SA hunt and first on any African fenced property. All other safaris were in vast wild areas. It truly was an exciting hunt and I would do again if money was available and other species were not higher on my "hunted" list.

I am fully aware of the Cecil fiasco, I have a pic of a hunter who in 2004 hunted buff, PG and leopard in the same area and had a bait in the exact same tree. No male showed up and I came home will all but a leopard.

I am NOT ashamed, NOT upset and could really care less about someone else's moral, or ethical beliefs. Does piss me off that some feel the need to push these thoughts on others. Its a legal hunt. Anyone should be allowed to partake and NOT get any shit, crap, name calling or negativity for participating. Last I read we are all "hunters". Divide and conquer is taking away legal hunts from us all.

MB

 

[Hunt anything]

This thread has turned surreal, it’s gone from CBL to feral cats to pheasant to cougars (the gold digger type) to baiting to fences and back to lions both wild and captive bred. But I do respect everyone’s opinions on all of it.

 

[TOBY458]

You could ask him if he wasn’t dead. My point being, to call these animals domesticated is simply not true to the definition of the word. The descriptions I’m reading here make
It sound like you’re shooting my cat off the front porch.

How much would you charge to shoot the cat off your porch? I know some guys looking for a reasonable deal on a good cat hunt. Lol!

 

[Shakka]

You could ask him if he wasn’t dead. My point being, to call these animals domesticated is simply not true to the definition of the word. The descriptions I’m reading here make
It sound like you’re shooting my cat off the front porch.

My comment was tongue-in-cheek about the guy going into the enclosure, but you can hardly compare a wild Lion with the CBL Lions who are eating dead chickens and pacing around their enclosures.

Any 500lb animal can be dangerous to a human, especially one with 18 claws and a mouthful of teeth.

Take a look at the many CBL hunts that are online and then find me one where the Lion isn't lying on his belly in the shade and looking at the "hunters" as they talk, fidget, and ready the shot.

If that's "Hunting" to you then there is no use continuing this conversation

 

[Daisy]

I had a Jersey Bull growing up that was obviously a domesticated breed and still very dangerous. CBL lions might not be domesticated at this point but they are raised as livestock. No one argues they aren’t dangerous.

Did you ever find the posts of the CBL hunters not asking questions, forcing their opinions on others, or just taking up for their hunt?

 

[Daisy]

I also read all these posts, many are same as the last and every thread that has anything to do with CBL.

I ADMIT I hunted a male class #1 CBL lion in 2021 with an outfitter who advertises on here. I was fully aware of the hunt type and style I would do, I did sign a ton of paperwork, really don't remember what each page specifics were, as in date of release?

There were more than my lion on the Kalahari ranch we hunted, lions WERE killing PG on their own, day before we left a well known US hunter and his wife arrived for the huge black maned male that we saw on a few occasions.

The hunt was all that was advertised, a little scripted, planned or choreographed more than I expected. It was my first SA hunt and first on any African fenced property. All other safaris were in vast wild areas. It truly was an exciting hunt and I would do again if money was available and other species were not higher on my "hunted" list.

I am fully aware of the Cecil fiasco, I have a pic of a hunter who in 2004 hunted buff, PG and leopard in the same area and had a bait in the exact same tree. No male showed up and I came home will all but a leopard.

I am NOT ashamed, NOT upset and could really care less about someone else's moral, or ethical beliefs. Does piss me off that some feel the need to push these thoughts on others. Its a legal hunt. Anyone should be allowed to partake and NOT get any shit, crap, name calling or negativity for participating. Last I read we are all "hunters". Divide and conquer is taking away legal hunts from us all.

MB

Yep. Thanks for your reply on this.

The anti hunters love when we divide and eat our own.

 

[375Fox]

Did you ever find the posts of the CBL hunters not asking questions, forcing their opinions on others, or just taking up for their hunt?

I typed a response to your original post and deleted my response because I really don’t understand your objective. I read into the responses from the pro-CBL crowd very differently than you do. I don’t know what questions they asked before or after their hunts. They can answer that themselves as some here did. I know what questions they won’t answer and I know this debate was reignited when all who oppose CBL were instructed to shut their mouths. What I’ve gathered from the lack of response to certain questions are None have visited a CBL breeding farm prior to the hunt or want to. None want to answer the question how a CBL lion is sold for less than the trophy fees of the prey animals they supposedly kill. None want to acknowledge no lions from CBL breeding farms went to reestablish lions in Mozambique delta but will like the post before information is corrected. None who have shot CBL lions want to acknowledge a connection to cub petting tourism or the bone trade to China. The if it’s legal it’s ok crowd is quite forceful with their views. As far as divide and conquer I’d ask which group is doing the dividing? Every hunting organization outside South Africa officially opposes CBL but somehow those participating are in the right because it’s legal in one country? So I still don’t know what your real question is but there is an answer.

 

[WAB]

How much would you charge to shoot the cat off your porch? I know some guys looking for a reasonable deal on a good cat hunt. Lol!

Mess with my cat and you’ll find out how well my wife can shoot!

 

[WAB]

My comment was tongue-in-cheek about the guy going into the enclosure, but you can hardly compare a wild Lion with the CBL Lions who are eating dead chickens and pacing around their enclosures.

Any 500lb animal can be dangerous to a human, especially one with 18 claws and a mouthful of teeth.

Take a look at the many CBL hunts that are online and then find me one where the Lion isn't lying on his belly in the shade and looking at the "hunters" as they talk, fidget, and ready the shot.

If that's "Hunting" to you then there is no use continuing this conversation

I suspect that I have far more wilderness and truly wild hunting experience than you will ever have. But I agree, this conversation is pointless.

 

[Shakka]

I typed a response to your original post and deleted my response because I really don’t understand your objective. I read into the responses from the pro-CBL crowd very differently than you do. I don’t know what questions they asked before or after their hunts. They can answer that themselves as some here did. I know what questions they won’t answer and I know this debate was reignited when all who oppose CBL were instructed to shut their mouths. What I’ve gathered from the lack of response to certain questions are None have visited a CBL breeding farm prior to the hunt or want to. None want to answer the question how a CBL lion is sold for less than the trophy fees of the prey animals they supposedly kill. None want to acknowledge no lions from CBL breeding farms went to reestablish lions in Mozambique delta but will like the post before information is corrected. None who have shot CBL lions want to acknowledge a connection to cub petting tourism or the bone trade to China. The if it’s legal it’s ok crowd is quite forceful with their views. As far as divide and conquer I’d ask which group is doing the dividing? Every hunting organization outside South Africa officially opposes CBL but somehow those participating are in the right because it’s legal in one country? So I still don’t know what your real question is but there is an answer.

WOW great post!

 

[Shakka]

I suspect that I have far more wilderness and truly wild hunting experience than you will ever have. But I agree, this conversation is pointless.

That's a pretty bold assumption that you just made there regarding my hunting experience. I won't justify myself in response, because I have nothing to prove to anyone.

That said, yes, I agree that a conversation between us is pointless

 

[AimSmall]

 

[Piet-Vis]

My take on this is that there are idealists and realists. I am an idealist to the extent that I prefer living in "Shithole Countries" North of the Limpopo so that I can live through the last bit of wild Africa. Nearly all of my DG hunts are without PHs where I do my own outfitting and guiding. I will not hunt a CBL lion in RSA, as I faintly hope that I might get a chance through my work as an Honorary Ranger. A real proper man-eater...
HOWEVER. I live and work here every day and have been doing this in several African countries for the past 20 years. The very sad reality is that wild Africa is shrinking at a terrific rate. Poaching is rife (One of my employees was apprehended two days ago for poaching an escaped Kudu!), and the rate at which trees are decimated for charcoal is alarming. The future of wildlife in Africa is behind fences or inaccessibly expensive for nearly all (especially for an African like myself) in a few top GMAs.
The Anti-CBL crowd seem to be disconnected from this reality and acts as privileged brats who are not willing to allow others who have less money to enjoy, sometimes extremely dangerous, fenced hunts. Perhaps I live too close to the land and the wildlife, but 375Fox's objections to how a CBL Lion gets raised leave me utterly cold. A great deal of the anti's objections are grounded in this particular notion that one life is worth more than another.
I am happy to read reports from hunters who enjoyed their Kalahari Lion hunts, and I am happy to report that the dollars that they spent do make a difference in the development of the South African game industry. Where I am based now there is almost no wildlife industry to speak about, and almost no game, outside of a few GMA's. Other African countries stand to gain so much if they are willing to learn from the lessons of the South African wildlife experiment. The main lesson is that wildlife is an economic asset that needs to be utilised using sound business principles. Too many idealist notions get in the way of this development are we are where we are due to (some) of that.

 

[375Fox]

My take on this is that there are idealists and realists. I am an idealist to the extent that I prefer living in "Shithole Countries" North of the Limpopo so that I can live through the last bit of wild Africa. Nearly all of my DG hunts are without PHs where I do my own outfitting and guiding. I will not hunt a CBL lion in RSA, as I faintly hope that I might get a chance through my work as an Honorary Ranger. A real proper man-eater...
HOWEVER. I live and work here every day and have been doing this in several African countries for the past 20 years. The very sad reality is that wild Africa is shrinking at a terrific rate. Poaching is rife (One of my employees was apprehended two days ago for poaching an escaped Kudu!), and the rate at which trees are decimated for charcoal is alarming. The future of wildlife in Africa is behind fences or inaccessibly expensive for nearly all (especially for an African like myself) in a few top GMAs.
The Anti-CBL crowd seem to be disconnected from this reality and acts as privileged brats who are not willing to allow others who have less money to enjoy, sometimes extremely dangerous, fenced hunts. Perhaps I live too close to the land and the wildlife, but 375Fox's objections to how a CBL Lion gets raised leave me utterly cold. A great deal of the anti's objections are grounded in this particular notion that one life is worth more than another.
I am happy to read reports from hunters who enjoyed their Kalahari Lion hunts, and I am happy to report that the dollars that they spent do make a difference in the development of the South African game industry. Where I am based now there is almost no wildlife industry to speak about, and almost no game, outside of a few GMA's. Other African countries stand to gain so much if they are willing to learn from the lessons of the South African wildlife experiment. The main lesson is that wildlife is an economic asset that needs to be utilised using sound business principles. Too many idealist notions get in the way of this development are we are where we are due to (some) of that.

My objections to how a CBL lion gets raised leaves you utterly cold? How am I wrong on how a CBL lion gets raised? This debate isn’t about hunting behind fences. The merits of fencing to protect wildlife inside could be argued and I’d agree with you on many points most likely. CBL however has nothing to do with conservation or establishing populations of wildlife in fenced areas. Lions are bred and raised in breeding facilities before being transported to hunting area and shot by a hunter a short time after. There is no attempt to establish lion numbers in the area. It’s purely put and take. You are trying to muddy the waters and make this about fenced hunting. I said in another post you can choose a sustainable quota hunting model where hunting dollars are used to protect the area (doesn’t matter fenced or open) and wildlife within the area or you can choose a put and take model like CBL where the money goes back into raising animals simply to meet demand nothing into conservation. The two models are at odds with each other if hunters want to say they support conservation.

 

[375Fox]

My take on this is that there are idealists and realists. I am an idealist to the extent that I prefer living in "Shithole Countries" North of the Limpopo so that I can live through the last bit of wild Africa. Nearly all of my DG hunts are without PHs where I do my own outfitting and guiding. I will not hunt a CBL lion in RSA, as I faintly hope that I might get a chance through my work as an Honorary Ranger. A real proper man-eater...
HOWEVER. I live and work here every day and have been doing this in several African countries for the past 20 years. The very sad reality is that wild Africa is shrinking at a terrific rate. Poaching is rife (One of my employees was apprehended two days ago for poaching an escaped Kudu!), and the rate at which trees are decimated for charcoal is alarming. The future of wildlife in Africa is behind fences or inaccessibly expensive for nearly all (especially for an African like myself) in a few top GMAs.
The Anti-CBL crowd seem to be disconnected from this reality and acts as privileged brats who are not willing to allow others who have less money to enjoy, sometimes extremely dangerous, fenced hunts. Perhaps I live too close to the land and the wildlife, but 375Fox's objections to how a CBL Lion gets raised leave me utterly cold. A great deal of the anti's objections are grounded in this particular notion that one life is worth more than another.
I am happy to read reports from hunters who enjoyed their Kalahari Lion hunts, and I am happy to report that the dollars that they spent do make a difference in the development of the South African game industry. Where I am based now there is almost no wildlife industry to speak about, and almost no game, outside of a few GMA's. Other African countries stand to gain so much if they are willing to learn from the lessons of the South African wildlife experiment. The main lesson is that wildlife is an economic asset that needs to be utilised using sound business principles. Too many idealist notions get in the way of this development are we are where we are due to (some) of that.

I posted earlier but this is how CBL lions are raised before they are transported to the hunting area. If this is the future you want for lions in Zambia this is sad. This debate isn’t about hunting fenced areas.

 

[Piet-Vis]

I posted earlier but this is how CBL lions are raised before they are transported to the hunting area. If this is the future you want for lions in Zambia this is sad. This debate isn’t about hunting fenced areas.

Good Heavens man
You are as bad as the Anti's. Those animals were clearly not raised using good practices, and their owner is a criminal who belongs in jail.
Lions, like all other livestock, can only be managed profitability if they are kept under conditions that allow near optimum performance, like cattle and chicken. No good farmer keeps livestock like that.
You have lost absolutely all credibility in my eyes by using that as an example. It is nearly as hysterical as the people who believe chickens are fed hormones or milk cows are tortured.
I don't know your background but I would venture a guess that it is far removed from primary agriculture.

 

[375Fox]

Good Heavens man
You are as bad as the Anti's. Those animals were clearly not raised using good practices, and their owner is a criminal who belongs in jail.
Lions, like all other livestock, can only be managed profitability if they are kept under conditions that allow near optimum performance, like cattle and chicken. No good farmer keeps livestock like that.
You have lost absolutely all credibility in my eyes by using that as an example. It is nearly as hysterical as the people who believe chickens are fed hormones or milk cows are tortured.
I don't know your background but I would venture a guess that it is far removed from primary agriculture.

Video was made by SAPA and states the facilities were in good conditions. That is how CBL lions are raised regardless if you like it. There are no other videos because it’s intentionally hidden from public eye. SAPA standards for lions are 400 sq meters per lion. I grew up working on a farm however I draw a clear distinction between hunting and raising livestock.

 

[Piet-Vis]

My objections to how a CBL lion gets raised leaves you utterly cold? How am I wrong on how a CBL lion gets raised? This debate isn’t about hunting behind fences. The merits of fencing to protect wildlife inside could be argued and I’d agree with you on many points most likely. CBL however has nothing to do with conservation or establishing populations of wildlife in fenced areas. Lions are bred and raised in breeding facilities before being transported to hunting area and shot by a hunter a short time after. There is no attempt to establish lion numbers in the area. It’s purely put and take. You are trying to muddy the waters and make this about fenced hunting. I said in another post you can choose a sustainable quota hunting model where hunting dollars are used to protect the area (doesn’t matter fenced or open) and wildlife within the area or you can choose a put and take model like CBL where the money goes back into raising animals simply to meet demand nothing into conservation. The two models are at odds with each other if hunters want to say they support conservation.

Why should there be an attempt (by individual farmers) to establish lion numbers and conserve them? Because some people believe they are majestic? It is like saying that only beautiful women can be virtuous. It will be a consequence that many animals are in the genetic pool, which is helpful for fitness traits. Small, constrained genetic pools are less able to adapt. These are basic genetic concepts taught in first-year genetics courses.
Giving Lions a monetary value and increasing their numbers increases their conservation status. These are the cold, hard facts, not emotions or feelings.
It's cool that people get emotional about African game; it's great. But we cannot manage them accordingly, as that happened in Kenya and we all know how that went.

 

[mark-hunter]

In last 100 years, we as hunters lost 50% of African hunting grounds (at least), for various reasons, but mostly for human population expansion, then for wars, poaching, hunting bans etc.
If this trend continues very likely the only hunting in the future could be fenced hunting. Even in the western countries, it is very much present.

So far, we determined or agreed that export of lion products to China reduces the poaching pressure on wild lions. That's one benefit for CBL.

Next question.
How about gene pool and inbreeding?
I believe I read somewhere, gene pool of captive bread lions is good, healthy and controlled and managed, while inbreeding can pose a risk to wild population in some areas.

When the issue of reintroduction of lion comes up, then CBL will become biggest source of lions for reintroduction. Besides from their genepool also they will be healthy population, and disease free - diseases that follows many wild lion populations.

Of the other iconic species, are raised and hunted in fences - rhino comes to mind, but how they are bread is different.

So, I think there is a future for CBL breathing, hunting and reintroduction programs, but also hunting organizations will have to work on code of ethics and policies and PR how to treat this phenomenon.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Video was made by SAPA and states the facilities were in good conditions. That is how CBL lions are raised regardless if you like it. There are no other videos because it’s intentionally hidden from public eye. SAPA standards for lions are 400 sq meters per lion. I grew up working on a farm however I draw a clear distinction between hunting and raising livestock.

Come on man. Surely you don't believe propaganda that this how all CBL look like? Really?