Lion hunting SA

[375Fox]

Come on man. Surely you don't believe propaganda that this how all CBL look like? Really?

Do you know what SAPA is?

 

[375Fox]

In last 100 years, we as hunters lost 50% of African hunting grounds (at least), for various reasons, but mostly for human population expansion, then for wars, poaching, hunting bans etc.
If this trend continues very likely the only hunting in the future could be fenced hunting. Even in the western countries, it is very much present.

So far, we determined or agreed that export of lion products to China reduces the poaching pressure on wild lions. That's one benefit for CBL.

Next question.
How about gene pool and inbreeding?
I believe I read somewhere, gene pool of captive bread lions is good, healthy and controlled and managed, while inbreeding can pose a risk to wild population in some areas.

When the issue of reintroduction of lion comes up, then CBL will become biggest source of lions for reintroduction. Besides from their genepool also they will be healthy population, and disease free - diseases that follows many wild lion populations.

Of the other iconic species, are raised and hunted in fences - rhino comes to mind, but how they are bread is different.

So, I think there is a future for CBL breathing, hunting and reintroduction programs, but also hunting organizations will have to work on code of ethics and policies and PR how to treat this phenomenon.

There is no conservation value to CBL lions because all hunting and conservation organizations outside PHASA and SAPA agree they have no conservation value (whether there is or isn’t) so these lions will never be used to supplement wild populations. They’ve also been bred for characteristics attractive for trophy hunters not the wild which is why mane size is excessive and white lions can be bought.

 

[375Fox]

Giving Lions a monetary value and increasing their numbers increases their conservation status. These are the cold, hard facts, not emotions or feelings.

In the wild yes. The animals raised as CBL lions have no conservation status no different than cattle or sheep.

 

[revturbo9967]

Why should there be an attempt (by individual farmers) to establish lion numbers and conserve them? Because some people believe they are majestic? It is like saying that only beautiful women can be virtuous. It will be a consequence that many animals are in the genetic pool, which is helpful for fitness traits. Small, constrained genetic pools are less able to adapt. These are basic genetic concepts taught in first-year genetics courses.
Giving Lions a monetary value and increasing their numbers increases their conservation status. These are the cold, hard facts, not emotions or feelings.
It's cool that people get emotional about African game; it's great. But we cannot manage them accordingly, as that happened in Kenya and we all know how that went.

So just shoot lions so Africa can make a profit?

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

In last 100 years, we as hunters lost 50% of African hunting grounds (at least), for various reasons, but mostly for human population expansion, then for wars, poaching, hunting bans etc.
If this trend continues very likely the only hunting in the future could be fenced hunting. Even in the western countries, it is very much present.

So far, we determined or agreed that export of lion products to China reduces the poaching pressure on wild lions. That's one benefit for CBL.

Next question.
How about gene pool and inbreeding?
I believe I read somewhere, gene pool of captive bread lions is good, healthy and controlled and managed, while inbreeding can pose a risk to wild population in some areas.

When the issue of reintroduction of lion comes up, then CBL will become biggest source of lions for reintroduction. Besides from their genepool also they will be healthy population, and disease free - diseases that follows many wild lion populations.

Of the other iconic species, are raised and hunted in fences - rhino comes to mind, but how they are bread is different.

So, I think there is a future for CBL breathing, hunting and reintroduction programs, but also hunting organizations will have to work on code of ethics and policies and PR how to treat this phenomenon.

Hi Mark,

I will from first hand knowledge I will disagree on one point you made, “the health of captive bred lion” .

Here in Zim. s few years back one of the very “anti hunting, walk with lion businesses” , was in the process of getting approval to release 8 of their lions into the area bordering our unfenced conservancy. Then as now we have a healthy lion population. We were made aware that there was evidence that all 8 of of these lion: lionesses had feline aids. We fought a battle for two years along with other concerned individual and stopped the release of these very unwelcome animals to our area.

I cannot buy into the concept that captive bred lion will be the future of reintroduction of lions into wild.

Mark correct me if I misunderstood you. I do believe that there are disease free breeding programs, but not all in all African countries.

Lon

 

[mark-hunter]

Lon, thanks for comments!

 

[Hunt anything]

Lon, thanks for comments!

Yep, learned something new, feline aids. I had never heard of it before. Finally got something good out of this thread other than a great want for something cold to drink!

 

[Daisy]

So just shoot lions so Africa can make a profit?

I will tell you. If the animals there didn’t have a monetary value, the locals I met, both white and black, would kill the animals and farm the land.

Conservationists come from rich countries with nothing else to do. Now, I am a conservationist. I think it’s a noble cause. But the only reason these animals still exist is the financial gain they provide to each people.

This isn’t endemic to Africa. We killed off many many species in th US until a basic level of wealth/comfort was obtained. All deer were exterminated in my home state of Alabama by 1950. Luckily, we had the resources to restock them, but for one reason. Hunting.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Didn’t Ted Nugent catch that and write a song.

 

[Daisy]

Didn’t Ted Nugent catch that and write a song.

Cats in the US get a vaccine against that. It’s very common and cats that live outside will get it if not vaccinated.

 

[Piet-Vis]

So just shoot lions so Africa can make a profit?

Unfortunately, yes. There is little political will from most African countries to conserve. The great gain gains that were made in South Africa in regards to game numbers was when legislation was changed that moved the ownership of game from the state to owner after a government regulation fence was put up. This incentivised landowners to change the property use of marginal land from domestic livestock to game. The landowners could then keep game as an alternative source of revenue. Foreign trophy hunters are but a small part of the industry, including recreational tourism, domestic hunters, and a few foreign hunters. There is also big push to work towards the export of venison.
African landowners, much like American or European ones, need to earn a return on their investment.

 

[Hunt anything]

I will tell you. If the animals there didn’t have a monetary value, the locals I met, both white and black, would kill the animals and farm the land.

Conservationists come from rich countries with nothing else to do. Now, I am a conservationist. I think it’s a noble cause. But the only reason these animals still exist is the financial gain they provide to each people.

This isn’t endemic to Africa. We killed off many many species in th US until a basic level of wealth/comfort was obtained. All deer were exterminated in my home state of Alabama by 1950. Luckily, we had the resources to restock them, but for one reason. Hunting.

Good points except the people that don’t want any use of wildlife are preservationists not conservationists.
Didn‘t realize you were from Alabama, hello from another Alabamian.

 

[mark-hunter]

Yep, learned something new, feline aids. I had never heard of it before. Finally got something good out of this thread other than a great want for something cold to drink!

Feline aids, (maybe not of same kind as lions) is also present with domestics cats, very often.
We had this disease in our neighborhood, in the suburbs.
In the old days - when I was kid, cats were around, cats lived and died. For whatever reason. Nobody bothered to take cat to vet. They were kept around the hose to chase small pests. They were not conisdered as pets.

Who had dog, he took him once a year to vet, for rabies vaccination. So there was at least some control

In last decades people changed the attitude started taking cats to veterinarian, as cats became "pets"and few neighbors had their cats with feline aids. Thats how I learnd of this.
They lived normally, until some sickness attacked. Then they expired.

 

[dchum]

I will tell you. If the animals there didn’t have a monetary value, the locals I met, both white and black, would kill the animals and farm the land.

Conservationists come from rich countries with nothing else to do. Now, I am a conservationist. I think it’s a noble cause. But the only reason these animals still exist is the financial gain they provide to each people.

This isn’t endemic to Africa. We killed off many many species in th US until a basic level of wealth/comfort was obtained. All deer were exterminated in my home state of Alabama by 1950. Luckily, we had the resources to restock them, but for one reason. Hunting.

That has nothing to do with CBL lions. The “locals” (ranch workers) there feed them in the ranchers predator pen and help release them from the hunt..

Please don’t confuse communal conservancies on government land for what happens in SA. This is not a nock. You just seem to be slightly miss led.

I don’t know how else to explain it.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Cats in the US get a vaccine against that. It’s very common and cats that live outside will get it if not vac

The bigger threat is most probably Tuberculosis, there are plenty of articles online about TB in the Kruger population.

 

[Daisy]

Good points except the people that don’t want any use of wildlife are preservationists not conservationists.
Didn‘t realize you were from Alabama, hello from another Alabamian.

Hello. Harvested any good deer this year?

 

[Hunt anything]

Hello. Harvested any good deer this year?

Not yet seen quite a few does and some small bucks, I did see 2 decent 8pts but no shot was available. How about you? What part of Alabama are you from. I grew up in Auburn and now live on the coast.

 

[Daisy]

That has nothing to do with CBL lions. The “locals” (ranch workers) there feed them in the ranchers predator pen and help release them from the hunt..

Please don’t confuse communal conservancies on government land for what happens in SA. This is not a nock. You just seem to be slightly miss led.

I don’t know how else to explain it.

My man. Just because someone feels different than you doesn’t mean they are misled.

I’m not a CBL fan. I just see the group think here get going and the pitchforks drive me nuts.

Also, the divide and conquer strategy is real. It’s like gun control in the US. I see some hunters try to appease the left with “common sense.” Gun reforms. Most are probably reasonable and could do some good. But the antis aren’t for common sense. They will use the good will and steamroll towards total banning of guns. Zero doubt.

Same with this. I’m probably against CBL too. But this vitriol and mob mentality is helping the antis. Just like @Philip Glass said earlier.

 

[Daisy]

Not yet seen quite a few does and some small bucks, I did see 2 decent 8pts but no shot was available. How about you? What part of Alabama are you from. I grew up in Auburn and now live on the coast.

I’ve had a good year! I live in Birmingham. From Jasper originally.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Just so we’re clear, it seems that the majority of AH members and most likely the majority of non-AH members (if AH membership is a representative of African hunters as a whole) that hunt Africa are now fully in favor of put and take?

I could be wrong. I hope there’s a silent majority that’s in the no camp but if this thread is any indication I think there are more in the yes camp than the no.

If that is the case then it seems like a pivotal moment..