Lion hunting SA

[TOBY458]

I have no interest in it and think they should be marketed honestly, but if someone wants to hunt put and take plains game I don’t care. I don’t think it’s detrimental to hunting like shooting CBL lions that are also bred for cub petting and lion bone industries. Now, my question, have you visited a CBL lion breeding facility? I think that would change many hunter’s opinions if they saw what they don’t want to see and not only the tracking experience 7 days later.

No, but I have visited a Cape Buffalo and Sable farm in SA. Pretty much tame animals in a fence. Then, once they are grown, they are released onto a hunting preserve. I see no meaningful difference. It's just that some people value the life of lions more so than other animals. It just is what it is.

 

[IvW]

16.4 I believe describes the contract and information that needs to be shared with client

 

[WAB]

OK... I can't take it anymore... I believe it's supposed to be ROGUE lion, though I confess to being unfamiliar with any specific story about said lion. If it truly was a ROUGE lion, well, then, someone set me straight. And provide photos - that's be a funny looking lion to see. (that is directed at no one in particular; I have seen it in several places)

Yeah, ain’t seen many rouge lions running about!

 

[375Fox]

16.4 I believe describes the contract and information that needs to be shared with client

I’d like to hear from one of the members who shot a CBL. I have read the norms and standards previously. That sounds like a standard contract to me, nothing require full disclosure.

 

[Shakka]

All hunters are tools of the Anti's.

I had avoided making a serious comment on this but it all comes down to ethics and trying to agree on that is a never ending argument especially when it comes to hunting. You can't influence or change someone ethics since that is a personal matter. You could 10 us in a room and go around and pick a subject and you will probably get 10 different viewpoints on what is ethical.

There are more important things in life than trying to change opinions on the internet. Everyone is different and values different things. Be glad about it because it is a big world and those differences give us the opportunity for new experiences.

You are SO right!

The Anti's will despise us no matter what we do

Their ultimate goal is to totally eliminate ALL hunting, so there is no point in trying to appease them

F them all, they are our enemy

 

[Rare Breed]

You are correct. Just as not all CBL hunting is created equal. Just curious, have you hunted game of any sort inside of a fence? And I'm not being argumentative with you, I just want to know where you stand on hunting on fenced game ranches. Do you believe that all hunting besides free range hunting should be banned? If so, I understand your argument. You are simply opposed to hunting any animal under such conditions. And that's fine. But if anyone can condemn CBL hunting while condoning hunting PG and Buffalo under indentical conditions, I just can't understand that argument. That's all.
I, like you, do appreciate the conversation, and am always open to discuss these topics with anyone who is willing to have a sane, logical discussion. I just fail to see the logic in some of the responses we've seen on this thread.

+1

 

[Rare Breed]

I’d like to hear from one of the members who shot a CBL. I have read the norms and standards previously. That sounds like a standard contract to me, nothing require full disclosure.

All on here know I did one this year with a great hunt. there is no contract to sign. it goes like this. 1. a call to several outfitters that do this type of hunt…nothing hidden whatsoever, 2. questions for acreage and time of release. that’s it. Only a complete hunting novice does not know it is a CBL hunt

 

[TOBY458]

I’d like to hear from one of the members who shot a CBL. I have read the norms and standards previously. That sounds like a standard contract to me, nothing require full disclosure.

The one and only CBL hunt I did was in the Kalahari. It was booked through a PH that basically acted as a middle man for the actual hunting operation. We were told that the lions had been roaming free for over 30 days. We were also shown some kills that the lions had made while we were walking through the various areas that we hunted in. The place was 9,000 acres if I remember correctly, so it took quite a bit of tracking to find the lions. I took a lioness and my hunting partner killed lion and a lioness. I was on all three hunts, so I guess you can say I've witnessed 3 different CBL hunts. Admittedly, not a lot of experience, but more than some nonetheless. This operation was first and foremost a lion hunting operation, so the PG on the property were not as plentiful as they are in some areas, but there were still plenty. They also had buffalo on the place, and they were the hardest buffalo I've ever hunted to get close to for a shot. Any shift in wind would send them running to the next county, so to speak. The lions acted much the same. Would I do this again? I'm not really sure. Once I tasted hunting in Zimbabwe, I'm kind of spoiled. But, I also wouldn't discourage someone from doing it, if they want to take a lion, and only have the means to do so in this manor. I'd say to just make sure it's as ethical as possible. Some outfits do operate as ethically as possible. And I'm sure some do not. So if someone is interested in this type of hunt, it's advisable for them to do their homework. There are plenty of people on this forum who can steer them in the right direction.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I hunted CBL lions, actually lionesses. I may do it again someday. It was crystal clear to me that those lionesses were breed in captivity.

The quality of a CBL hunt is entirely provided by the outfitter/PH. I agree there are disreputable outfitters which represent their hunts as more than they are. Misrepresentation via marketing is common in every industry including all types of hunting outfitters. In every barrel will be at least one bad apple. Knowing this I asked my trusted outfitter @Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS to arrange my CBL hunt.

This is my CBL hunt report;

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ses-hunt-with-tally-ho-hunting-safaris.71691/

My thoughts on the ethics of CBL hunts were provided in my post #86 to this thread,

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/lion-hunting-sa.79046/page-5#post-1157193

Perhaps instead of these keyboard skirmishes over CBL yes or no, an advisory of what to look for in a CBL outfitter and hunt would be more helpful?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I get a package deal for plains game my first trip. Pretty much the usual back then (not so much today): blesbuck, impala, springbuck, gemsbuck, kudu. I shoot blesbuck, impala, and a wildebeest and warthog before noon of the first day on a 167K farm of which less than half is huntable (the rest is unaccessible). Wildebeest fell in our lap and owner wanted hogs shot. When we return to the lodge late I'm told of the opportunity to cull the cow buffalo. It is made very clear this is management deal on a breeding property. I expressed reservation. Not into shooting fish in a barrel. The lodge owner assured me the animals were rangey. "Pat, buffalo naturally don't like people." Still hesitant but I agreed to maybe go have a look if there was time after making progress on the list. Next day I shot my springbuck on another property. As we were leaving the place I asked my PH about a "rogue" gemsbuck he had mentioned earlier. "Would you be interested in that?" She had escaped into a smaller parcel and no way to get her back to the herd section. Well, we were there and she is doing nothing but wasting range during a drought (farm also ran sheep). May as well. Then I can focus on kudu which was always my top priority. It took a while but we found her and then I had to shoot or get run over ... literally. That made it interesting! Turns out she was a very old cow with 2" compression rings. It's doubtful she would make any more calves no matter where she was. On our way back to the lodge we got the call to go cull the cow buffalo. We only expected to scope out the situation for the afternoon but got lucky. Then lucky someone didn't get hurt. The next day the lodge owner told me an operator just called with a great deal on a trophy sable: 48" for $4K. Okay ... if it is known EXACTLY how long this critter's horns are, it must be a breeding bull who's suddenly outlived his usefulness. Yep, that's it. Nah, I've had enough. He figured as much but thought he would throw it out there. Given the nature of sable (which I did not know at the time), I'm sure I would have been very disappointed with that "hunt." And I'm guessing another client was very happy with an easy hunt and a fabulous set of horns to put on the wall. Ending of that story is I had the rest of the safari to take a kudu and didn't get it till just before dark on the last day before flying home. Whew!

A good safari operator/PH will be honest with his client ... especially if the client is an experienced hunter. They know I'm traditionally a free range public land solo hunter from the American West .. and I knew going in there is no such thing in South Africa. No one was misled. If someone tried to tell me a rogue lion just showed up and the community was pleading for Bwana Pat to go shoot it (for umpteen thousand dollars), I would have been laughing all the way to the airport.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I hunted CBL lions, actually lionesses. I may do it again someday. It was crystal clear to me that those lionesses were breed in captivity.

The quality of a CBL hunt is entirely provided by the outfitter/PH. I agree there are disreputable outfitters which represent their hunts as more than they are. Misrepresentation via marketing is common in every industry including all types of hunting outfitters. In every barrel will be at least one bad apple. Knowing this I asked my trusted outfitter @Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS to arrange my CBL hunt.

This is my CBL hunt report;

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ses-hunt-with-tally-ho-hunting-safaris.71691/

My thoughts on the ethics of CBL hunts were provided in my post #86 to this thread,

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/lion-hunting-sa.79046/page-5#post-1157193

Perhaps instead of these keyboard skirmishes over CBL yes or no, an advisory of what to look for in a CBL outfitter and hunt would be more helpful?

Yes or no ought to be hashed out first. Essentially the no camp has already won although going off this thread the yes camp is unfortunately larger than it should be.

 

[375Fox]

The one and only CBL hunt I did was in the Kalahari. It was booked through a PH that basically acted as a middle man for the actual hunting operation. We were told that the lions had been roaming free for over 30 days. We were also shown some kills that the lions had made while we were walking through the various areas that we hunted in. The place was 9,000 acres if I remember correctly, so it took quite a bit of tracking to find the lions. I took a lioness and my hunting partner killed lion and a lioness. I was on all three hunts, so I guess you can say I've witnessed 3 different CBL hunts. Admittedly, not a lot of experience, but more than some nonetheless. This operation was first and foremost a lion hunting operation, so the PG on the property were not as plentiful as they are in some areas, but there were still plenty. They also had buffalo on the place, and they were the hardest buffalo I've ever hunted to get close to for a shot. Any shift in wind would send them running to the next county, so to speak. The lions acted much the same. Would I do this again? I'm not really sure. Once I tasted hunting in Zimbabwe, I'm kind of spoiled. But, I also wouldn't discourage someone from doing it, if they want to take a lion, and only have the means to do so in this manor. I'd say to just make sure it's as ethical as possible. Some outfits do operate as ethically as possible. And I'm sure some do not. So if someone is interested in this type of hunt, it's advisable for them to do their homework. There are plenty of people on this forum who can steer them in the right direction.

I don’t think I will change yours or Rare Breed’s mind and I don’t think you’ll change mine. I find these hunts harmful to the reputation of hunting regardless of how they get choreographed. I hope those who are undecided ask some questions beyond the tracking experience.

 

[375Fox]

I get a package deal for plains game my first trip. Pretty much the usual back then (not so much today): blesbuck, impala, springbuck, gemsbuck, kudu. I shoot blesbuck, impala, and a wildebeest and warthog before noon of the first day on a 167K farm of which less than half is huntable (the rest is unaccessible). Wildebeest fell in our lap and owner wanted hogs shot. When we return to the lodge late I'm told of the opportunity to cull the cow buffalo. It is made very clear this is management deal on a breeding property. I expressed reservation. Not into shooting fish in a barrel. The lodge owner assured me the animals were rangey. "Pat, buffalo naturally don't like people." Still hesitant but I agreed to maybe go have a look if there was time after making progress on the list. Next day I shot my springbuck on another property. As we were leaving the place I asked my PH about a "rogue" gemsbuck he had mentioned earlier. "Would you be interested in that?" She had escaped into a smaller parcel and no way to get her back to the herd section. Well, we were there and she is doing nothing but wasting range during a drought (farm also ran sheep). May as well. Then I can focus on kudu which was always my top priority. It took a while but we found her and then I had to shoot or get run over ... literally. That made it interesting! Turns out she was a very old cow with 2" compression rings. It's doubtful she would make any more calves no matter where she was. On our way back to the lodge we got the call to go cull the cow buffalo. We only expected to scope out the situation for the afternoon but got lucky. Then lucky someone didn't get hurt. The next day the lodge owner told me an operator just called with a great deal on a trophy sable: 48" for $4K. Okay ... if it is known EXACTLY how long this critter's horns are, it must be a breeding bull who's suddenly outlived his usefulness. Yep, that's it. Nah, I've had enough. He figured as much but thought he would throw it out there. Given the nature of sable (which I did not know at the time), I'm sure I would have been very disappointed with that "hunt." And I'm guessing another client was very happy with an easy hunt and a fabulous set of horns to put on the wall. Ending of that story is I had the rest of the safari to take a kudu and didn't get it till just before dark on the last day before flying home. Whew!

A good safari operator/PH will be honest with his client ... especially if the client is an experienced hunter. They know I'm traditionally a free range public land solo hunter from the American West .. and I knew going in there is no such thing in South Africa. No one was misled. If someone tried to tell me a rogue lion just showed up and the community was pleading for Bwana Pat to go shoot it (for umpteen thousand dollars), I would have been laughing all the way to the airport.

I don’t think you understand the difference of a buffalo breeding property and a lion breeding farm. Standards for raising lions are 400 sq meters (20x20). More similar operation to a puppy mill than the buffalo breeding area you saw. Cubs are separated from mothers so the lionesses will breed again. Highly hands on until they are released.

 

[Philip Glass]

I disagree with this. I have hunted all over the world, and there are hunts that interest me, and those that don’t. Does this mean I’m not a real hunter?

I suppose there is a difference between something not interesting you and a hard "no I would never do that...". I am not interested in shooting an American bison but if the right situation occurred I might just do it!

 

[Philip Glass]

In my opinion those participating and supporting CBL are an asset to the antis. Every major hunting organization (aside from the one making money on the practice) says the practice is damaging to the reputation of hunters. I see no faster way to create an anti than let the tourist that participated in cub petting know a hunter harvesting the same lion several years later. It happened in the past. Supposedly it doesn’t occur now, but there is zero verification on any aspect of these cats or this practice. All I see now is the messaging and marketing on these “hunts” is much more aligned to limit further reputation damage to CBL industry. Seeking out legal activities when they are illegal in the rest of the world isn’t something to be condoned in my opinion.

I completely disagree. Are there unsavory actors in this business? Sure there are but they can be in any.
My major hangup is putting one animal in a separate category from all others. On a pedestal, if you will. This is a type of prejudice and actually comes from a bowing to the antis And their language. They only care about the animals that are seen made into stuffed animals for kids!
It is hypocritical to say no ranch lions can be hunted but sable is ok As well as Whitetailed deer and pheasant, etc.
This whole CBL argument began with the wild Zimbabwe lion being hunted in 2015 who supposedly had a name. All kinds of lies were told about that hunt but in the end it was legal and wild. It is ironic we allowed ourselves as a hunting community to be cowed by this highly publicized and criticized hunt. And then we went on to make policy. Talk about being an asset to the antis!

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I am not interested in shooting an American bison but if the right situation occurred I might just do it!

I shot a bison from an SCI auction. I bid on it for the meat. A three year old male provided 300 lbs of very tasty vacuum sealed meat!

Honestly, this wasn't much of a hunt. I waited for a safe brain shot and down it went.

 

[375Fox]

I completely disagree. Are there unsavory actors in this business? Sure there are but they can be in any.
My major hangup is putting one animal in a separate category from all others. On a pedestal, if you will. This is a type of prejudice and actually comes from a bowing to the antis And their language. They only care about the animals that are seen made into stuffed animals for kids!
It is hypocritical to say no ranch lions can be hunted but sable is ok As well as Whitetailed deer and pheasant, etc.
This whole CBL argument began with the wild Zimbabwe lion being hunted in 2015 who supposedly had a name. All kinds of lies were told about that hunt but in the end it was legal and wild. It is ironic we allowed ourselves as a hunting community to be cowed by this highly publicized and criticized hunt. And then we went on to make policy. Talk about being an asset to the antis!

The CBL debate started when the documentary Blood Lions was released which happened the same month as news broke on Cecil. CBL lions became a different category than the other animals raised for hunting in South Africa when the same animals are used for cub petting and the bone trade to China.

 

[Nyati]

I’d like to hear from one of the members who shot a CBL. I have read the norms and standards previously. That sounds like a standard contract to me, nothing require full disclosure.

I did not shoot a lion, but went along with two of my friends for the experience, and yes, both knew exactly what it was all about.

Both took place in very well known properties in RSA, Serapa ans Sans Souci, the last one is 20.000 hectares !

First hunt was not very exciting, we followed tracks for a long time, saw the lioness under a tree , and my friend shot her at about 40 meters.

Second hunt was very different, we followed a male that kept hiding in the vegetation, until he decided that was enough and charged us, my frind put a bullet under his left eye , and he dropped not more than 10 meters away. Exciting.

This is not the first thread over CBL in the forum, and the subject has been I propose we move on and discuss White Lions

Peace my friends, and let´s all enjoy hunting as each sees it.

 

[Hookboy88]

No, I never put down the ethics of hunting wild lions. But I don't think it's very ethical for someone who shoots lion, wild or not, over bait to criticize the ethics of someone who tracks and shoots a recently released penned lion. There is nothing remotely unethical about culling an old cow buffalo on the range that's been on the range long enough to be wary and ornery. Those are wild characteristics. I pursued those animals on their turf and on their terms. I didn't shoot her over bait. How do you compare that to the "ethics" of either lion hunting scenario? There is no comparison.

You are correct on one thing. There is no comparison between the two. I give you that.

Hunting a wild lion with bait or not bait has a few higher failure rate.

BTW I am not against you hunting that Buffalo. I just made a statement that I thought you had odd views on the ethics of hunting. Go hunt another Buffalo there. Just don’t pretend it’s more difficult than hunting wild, free ranging animals. Even if they are baited….

Have a good day!

 

[Hookboy88]

I cull buffalo(wild herds) on large fenced game reserves as well as PAC elephant that break into fenced ranches large ones, as well as lions(escaped from breeding facilities and wild ones), as well as hippo, in fact the fence is destroyed on the one side.....perhaps I should decline as this now seems to be canned or put and take hunting....
Way too much is made of fenced areas. In RSA game ranches have to be fenced. Yes size makes a difference but to just say all fenced areas or ranches or farms are the same is just idiotic......
So all hunters who visit and hunt RSA are unethical and are parricipating in unethical practice?????
I do not partake in CBL hunting but if somebody wants to and it is legal I see no reason why they should not if that is what they want to do.....

I never once said that I had a problem with the ethics of how that 4,000 acre hunt went down.

I made a statement that him saying hunting wild lions with bait were as unethical as CBL. I find that line of thought to be greatly flawed. I pointed out that he would hunt a Buff in a small acreage but thought negatively of someone hunting a wild animal by baiting.


He then attacked my intelligence and told me to wake up.

Dude wants attention. I get it.

Keep hunting however you want to hunt. As long as it’s legal. I also have no problems with people hunting CBL.

I am headed to RSA in august myself. I have never said any fenced hunting or any one Country was unethical