Hunting SA or "Wild" Africa - Which is Better

[Wishfulthinker580]

There is nothing that compares to hunting wild Africa to me. When I refer to wild Africa I’m usually referring to a concession area owned by government or community outside South Africa. To really be “wild” I feel it needs to have lions and leopards. If they are missing or not in area full time it shows the area is likely in decline. Booking a wild area, I really feel the concession needs to be top priority for a good hunt. The PH is a close second but still second. I’ve never had an issue finding trophy animals in wild areas. The number of trophies will often be less, but the experience far outweighs the number of trophies. I realize price is a consideration for everyone but if you want to hunt quality wild areas you just need to accept price or move on. Searching for a deal can lead to issues.
This was my hunt last year in Zimbabwe in Dande East 16 days, all primary trophies buffalo, sable, roan were taken in the first 7.
View attachment 511609This was my hunt in Kaokoland in NW Namibia north of the veterinary fence 2018. The outfitter had 3 conservancies at time totaling 1.5 million area communal land. These were taken in 6 hunting days along with zebra and ostrich at standard plains game pricing.
View attachment 511610
I’ve had other equally successful hunts, but don’t have the final skinning shed photos readily available. Good areas do exist with some research. There are a lot of areas I don’t feel should be being marketed but unfortunately still are.
South Africa has great hunting. I will hunt again. However the fencing can be a great thing or the opposite depending how it gets used. If a property is managed on a quota system and the fence is used to protect what’s inside it’s a great thing. If the fence is used to continuously stock what’s inside to sell larger numbers of trophy animals to hunters I hate the fence. There is a continual effort to downplay put and take hunting and fences in South Africa by just a few bad operations, but i think that’s being careless with the truth. The buffalo and sable breeding operations are very visible in Limpopo. The only end destination for the bulls is high fenced hunting ranches to supplement trophies removed. The game ranching videos with color variants and huge trophies are readily available on YouTube. The only market for this is hunting again. South Africa invented CBL lion hunting. Farm raising a lion in small pen on chickens then releasing 72 hours before a hunt into a bigger enclosure (then selling the bones to China). I see there is a post that South Africa is criticized because of its success. I’d say it’s criticized because of general acceptance and downplaying of these practices by outfitters there. If releasing a lion hours for shooting is hunting. I’m much more willing to question what other practices they are willing to accept or ways they will market their hunts. Whether an animal runs away from me doesn’t make it wild hunting to me. I’d like know animal was born on property and untouched by humans other than protecting area. Shooting a buffalo or sable raised as livestock then released into a hunting area isn’t a trophy to me whether it runs away from me or not. I’ll hunt South Africa again, but the practices that happen there don’t happen elsewhere (at least to that extent). I feel a lot of hunting in South Africa is borderline between commercial livestock farming and actual hunting. I’ll do as much due diligence to find a property managed on quotas as I would to find a quality wild unfenced area.

I always find it interesting as well, when people actually denigrate a wild area because the animals MAY not run off as soon as they see you.

It’s still a wild area!!!!

I understand that that is not ideal and may feel too easy. On the other hand you don’t have to shoot it either. That tells me some people actually prefer an artificial experience rather than the real thing

 

[IdaRam]

Congratulations, finally somebody that sees that the emperor doesn't wear any clothes! SA is the only place you can hunt sustainable, because of high fences, together with management. What is a fence? Wire isn't the only fence: water is a fence, good grazing is a fence. In the so called Wild Africa they're only harvesting and that's a fact. They put nothing back and don't care about the animals or management, but only the money. The poachers are also trying to make a living in Wild Africa, but don't have the money to buy a concession and the "know how" to put up an outfitter's business. So the reason why there is no fences, is because the governments of those countries own the wildlife and make tons of dollars while the locals only get the meat to eat. That way, they keep their mouths shut. If they put up fences, it will mean the end of wildlife in Africa, because everything will be devoured inbetween those fences. If Africa wasn't that sparsely populated, there would have been no wild animals left. They even made over-Park arrangements with SA to take down our wild game parks' fences to repopulate their wildlife. If anyone bind himself to the truth, he will have to admit it! Any cattle farmer will tell you that you cannot farm sustainable and manageable without fences. Game is the same. Without fences, there is no control and ownership.

My opinion.

While I respect your opinion, this is painting with a very broad brush don’t you think? There are a number of very visible examples which refute this. Just to name a couple look into what Mark Haldane and the Duckworth family are doing in their areas of Mozambique. There have been millions of US dollars spent reintroducing and protecting game species after the war. Areas that had been almost completely denuded of wildlife. Their lion projects are particularly inspiring. Additionally, work that directly improves the lives of the local people, while in some cases may primarily mean meat, still when raw protein is non existent in your diet I imagine it’s a little bit like gold to a banker. This population problem doesn’t seem to be going away any time soon on the continent of Africa.

 

[Rubberhead]

I bet the folks in Alaska or Russia think this whole conversation is kind of silly...

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I bet the folks in Alaska or Russia think this whole conversation is kind of silly...

Idk someone has already conflated a man made African high fence operation and Alaskan islands.. Maybe that is a hotly debated topic there!

 

[Rubberhead]

Idk someone has already conflated a man made African high fence operation and Alaskan islands.. Maybe that is a hotly debated topic there!

I missed that one...I need to pay closer attention...

 

[mark-hunter]

Well, unfortunately your opinion is based on falsehoods. The outfitters, at least in Zimbabwe, fund and run anti-poaching patrols, contribute to communities (building and funding schools, clinics etc.).

This can be a broader subject.
And this indeed may be true. However, how effective that is, is another question.

When searching the deals and offers section on this forum, Zimbabwe is premier destination for dangerous game.
On the other hand, plains game packages are scarse in Zim, almost to none. In most of the cases, plains game is offered as optional.
I raised that question somewhere on this forum, and it turned out that plains game in Zim is under heavy poaching pressure. Numbers reduced. Present efforts in antipoaching, probably are not sufficient.

If we look at trends established in last 100 years:
100 years ago, Africa was huntable all over.
Today, Africa is Huntable maybe 50% of territory, for variety of reasons.
And the only positive trends in game numbers are visible only in South Africa and Namibia.
(South Africa increased numbers from 500.000 animals, up to 20.000.000 in last decades, information from "The new game rancher" by P and P Oberen ) Namibia should have similar trends. SUch example cannot be found anywhere else in Africa.

Based on above:
"Wild African hunts" are strugling for variety of reasons, and we as hunters are slowly loosing the grounds there. The main factors are encroaching, habbitat loss and poaching. (or not efficient anti poaching)
On the other hand South African and Namibian model have proven very much long term sustainable, and SUCCESSFUL and I have impression, that if the hunting in Africa remains, it will be based on that model, in next 100 years.
I do hope, I am wrong, but everything else points in that direction.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I always find it interesting as well, when people actually denigrate a wild area because the animals MAY not run off as soon as they see you.

It’s still a wild area!!!!

I understand that that is not ideal and may feel too easy. On the other hand you don’t have to shoot it either. That tells me some people actually prefer an artificial experience rather than the real thing

Ok, so this opens up another topic. I can only laugh when I read when people write that they want to hunt animals that has never seen people before.
Don't get me wrong. I fully appreciate the romance of wild Africa. It is special and there are very few areas in South Africa that can match that romance if possible.
If you want to hunt animals that has never seen a person before, then you better be ready to shoot an animal standing and watching you. Guess what, he's never seen a person before. How did you think it was going to react?
You say that you don't have to shoot it. Will it not be better to book a photographic safari then? Or do you wan't to hunt self sustaining herds that know what danger is, and challenges your and your PH's skills to outsmart and outwit mature animals?

Where do we draw the line?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Well, unfortunately your opinion is based on falsehoods. The outfitters, at least in Zimbabwe, fund and run anti-poaching patrols, contribute to communities (building and funding schools, clinics etc.).

There are many Zimbabwe outfitters that do a tremendous amount of work behind the scenes. Without them, there would be nothing.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Ok, so this opens up another topic. I can only laugh when I read when people write that they want to hunt animals that has never seen people before.
Don't get me wrong. I fully appreciate the romance of wild Africa. It is special and there are very few areas in South Africa that can match that romance if possible.
If you want to hunt animals that has never seen a person before, then you better be ready to shoot an animal standing and watching you. Guess what, he's never seen a person before. How did you think it was going to react?
You say that you don't have to shoot it. Will it not be better to book a photographic safari then? Or do you wan't to hunt self sustaining herds that know what danger is, and challenges your and your PH's skills to outsmart and outwit mature animals?

Where do we draw the line?

I only meant that you don’t have to shoot that exact animal in the hopes of another chance later with the full knowledge that you may not get another chance. If that exact situation felt somehow unfair or unsatisfying.

There are many SA outfitters that do things right, yourself included. Having said that, I do not get the concerted effort to equate a high fence operation in any African country with wild Africa. Or even to say it is to be preferred. In my mind there is no comparison.

Mind you I can not afford most of the truly wild places that usually come to everyone’s mind. At least not with the frequency that I would like so I have to compromise to a degree.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I only meant that you don’t have to shoot that exact animal in the hopes of another chance later with the full knowledge that you may not get another chance. If that exact situation felt somehow unfair or unsatisfying.

There are many SA outfitters that do things right, yourself included. Having said that, I do not get the concerted effort to equate a high fence operation in any African country with wild Africa. Or even to say it is to be preferred. In my mind there is no comparison.

Mind you I can not afford most of the truly wild places that usually come to everyone’s mind. At least not with the frequency that I would like so I have to compromise to a degree.

I hear you. Was just playing devils advocate, but there is a line which can be discussed.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I hear you. Was just playing devils advocate, but there is a line which can be discussed.

Understood and I believe you’re right and KMG is on the right side of that line.

Large areas, sustainable herds, low off take, age first priority, ethical hunting methods etc…

I said it earlier in this thread but one thing that hinders me in the DG arena is the lack of predation on most RSA properties

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Large areas, sustainable herds, low off take, age first priority, ethical hunting methods etc…

I said it earlier in this thread but one thing that hinders me in the DG arena is the lack of predation on most RSA properties

Our free range areas are actually a ball ache, to be perfectly honest with you. Quotas are so low, plus, we require an individual permit for certain animals as simple as Kudu. So, they are usually snapped up well in advance.

Your second line is very interesting to me. I would assume that you are talking about the chance of running into Lion. Our Buffalo area in Limpopo is full of Leopard and Spotted Hyena. Can't guarantee that Lions will or will not be there. I can guarantee that you will hear Spotted Hyena. Leopard, you will see tracks pretty much every day. Are you referring to Lion?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Our free range areas are actually a ball ache, to be perfectly honest with you. Quotas are so low, plus, we require an individual permit for certain animals as simple as Kudu. So, they are usually snapped up well in advance.

Your second line is very interesting to me. I would assume that you are talking about the chance of running into Lion. Our Buffalo area in Limpopo is full of Leopard and Spotted Hyena. Can't guarantee that Lions will or will not be there. I can guarantee that you will hear Spotted Hyena. Leopard, you will see tracks pretty much every day. Are you referring to Lion?

I would like to hunt your free range areas one day for the endemic species there.

Yes I am referring to lion, but it’s not my chance encounter with them that I’m concerned about so much as the day in and day out relationship they have with the buffalo herd(s).

 

[Scott CWO]

Thanks for the help. I like you am in the industry, I run a camera for an outdoor hunting show and I've hunted literally all over the world and I've researched many, many hunts for our group so I have a good idea what to look for and the questions to ask. I would love any ideas on a wild area with good buffalo quality that doesn't cost more than twice as much as SA.

Sounds good. SA buffalo prices vary widely. What’s the budget?

 

[Sourdough]

Idk someone has already conflated a man made African high fence operation and Alaskan islands.. Maybe that is a hotly debated topic there!

"Conflate" okay I had to look that one up. To blow together; bring together as if by convergent winds.

And that was me. The point I was making was some folks won't hunt a high fenced area no matter how large, but they'd hunt an island which is effectively "fenced" by water.

And yea, in Alaska we never talk about high fence hunting. Although I did consider high fencing my place and putting Bison on it, but that would stop the moose, coyotes, lynx, brown and black bear from using the land.

Which reminds me, when I first bought my place on the Kenai Peninsula I looked out a window and spotted a turkey...in Alaska. (How's that for thread drift!)

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

"Conflate" okay I had to look that one up. To blow together; bring together as if by convergent winds.

And that was me. The point I was making was some folks won't hunt a high fenced area no matter how large, but they'd hunt an island which is effectively "fenced" by water.

And yea, in Alaska we never talk about high fence hunting. Although I did consider high fencing my place and putting Bison on it, but that would stop the moose, coyotes, lynx, brown and black bear from using the land.

Which reminds me, when I first bought my place on the Kenai Peninsula I looked out a window and spotted a turkey...in Alaska. (How's that for thread drift!)

View attachment 511668

Nice! I understand your point but there again it’s a natural barrier versus a man made one so in my mind there is a difference

 

[TXhunter65]

What is wild...or wilderness, I've always agreed with:

"Wilderness is a continuous stretch of county preserved in its natural state, open to lawful hunting and fishing, big enough to absorb a two weeks’ pack trip, and kept devoid of roads, artificial trails, cottages, or other works of man." A. Leopold

There are very few places left on this earth fitting this definition, and only a very select few who can afford to hunt these areas.

Wild is different between each of our ears… regardless of property size, presence/height of fence, or closest inhabitant. I've seen wild on 140 acres in Ellis county Texas, I've seen it on a 60,000 acre Boise Cascade forest in Vernon Parish Louisiana, and I've seen it on 1,000's of acres in Africa. I'm aware none of those places fit Aldo's definition, I'm ok with that, they were wild to me. If they don't fit your definition, I'm sorry.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it makes me sad when hunters tear down hunters because others don't use the weapons they use, hunt the way they do, hunt the places they do...etc. etc. etc...

When our children, their children or their children lose the right or ability to hunt it will not be due to the anti-hunting groups efforts to end our passion, it'll be our own inabilities to band together despite petty difference.

Our own condemnation will be our damnation.

 

[spike.t]

I totally agree with you and my hunt in Zambia provided many of the things you talk about here with hippo and elephants in camp at night. All great experiences that I really loved, just no trophy quality animals. I left there saying to all I had a great time, but I would not return there.

What gma was it?

 

[sgt_zim]

My best friend and I were having this very discussion on the way back from deer hunting yesterday.

I'm not opposed to high fence hunting, just the sort of high fence hunting that's common in large swaths of Texas.

If I walk long miles and do a lot of sweating, and my guide has a reasonable idea of where the animals are (but can't just walk me straight to them) even if it's a fenced operation, I'm down with that.

50,000 fenced acres is still 78 square miles of territory.

If i'm driven out to a ground blind and know the animals will show up for feeding between 0800 and 0830, well, that's just not any damned fun at all, not to me.

I'm more proud of this ugly cull than just about any animal I've ever killed because of the effort I put into finally killing him.

 

[spike.t]

Nice! I understand your point but there again it’s a natural barrier versus a man made one so in my mind there is a difference

the kafue doesn't stop some of our animals crossing to other side....some are chased by poachers...others obviously think the grass is greener....that's 16kms of river that's part of our boundary...rest is 11kms of fence...but some go in and out of that as well.....