Hunting SA or "Wild" Africa - Which is Better

[geoff rath]

Further to my comment on experience; Tally Ho's (and others') experience is most informative. I was lucky, very much so. First, and only hunt was in SA, with Gunter Bierbaumer as our outfitter. I kept stuffing up shots, thanks to Gunter and his staff, every animal was recovered. While the rest of the party went to a wedding in Cape Town, Gunter and his bother drove me up to Kruger. No cats, dozens of ele, plenty of "plains game", and literally hundreds of Buff, milling around in the bed of that big river; Gunter and I spent a couple hours picking our favourite Bull from the herd, if we'd had the opportunity. Favourite incident? Being "fronted by a 35+ pound ele bull at a Parks education ground; he came within about 20 meters of us; totally enlightening ... The chance of my returning to Afrika are slm, according to my Doc.

 

[Gerry Addison]

Thank you for this honest post. It confirms something I suspected that "wild" is often confused with "impoverished." SA's image for hunters suffers from its success. But I think it comes down to the outfitter. You need a professional who wants to deliver what you are looking for. I will always go to @KMG Hunting Safaris first because I know he will do what he can to make the trip what I am looking for. He will be candid about what he will deliver, which gives me confidence to plan. I don't think any country holds a monopoly on good experiences. But the PH holds the keys.

I totally agree.

 

[Gerry Addison]

I have hunted with many outfitters in North and South America, Europe, and of course Africa and have never been "scammed." Occasionally, I have had more than one PH on a hunt, but it wasn't an issue. I enjoyed the company of each of them. I have often used a hunting consultant, particularly going to any area outside of the US for the first time.

I have had excellent hunts on game farms in South Africa and in Namibia. The latter was large enough to have elephant and black rhino on it, and the first was worth a magazine article. That said, I prefer low fence or wilderness areas. The primary reason is that I like to hunt game in its native environment. For instance shooting a lechwe, waterbuck, or nyala hundreds of miles from its native habitat is rather like hunting one in Texas. Also, I will not knowingly participate in put and take shooting. Lastly, I am also not interested in artificially created animals, whether colors or horn size. I should hasten to add the 200 class whitetail freaks created behind fences in the US leave me equally cold.

So yes, a quality hunt can occur in both environments. Perhaps the most important research tool is to clearly and honestly articulate one's expectations to one's self.

Believe me I've told the outfitters on every hunt my expectations. I don't go on any hunt expecting to shoot a 40 inch bull. I expect a PH to give me a great experience which to me means hunting hard, being friendly in an area which holds animals worth hunting. All my Ph's have assured me they would do that. In most cases they delivered on some of these but not all.

 

[Gerry Addison]

Some Google Earth images.
Mozambique 'wild" and South Africa.
The second image is a "zoomed" in area of the first picture.
The third picture is the edge of Hluhluwe park border.

I knew what I was in for in Moz. There were little "villages" everywhere, on every road.
As has been noted, know where you are headed, have a look on Google Earth. You'll know shortly what you are getting in to.

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Zambia wild place.

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Tanzania Wild place

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That sir is a great idea that I had never thought of! Thank you for that. It confirms that I'd love Tanzania and I wish I could afford it. I guess it comes down to one trip to Tanzania every few years or go to a lesser place more often.

 

[Gerry Addison]

I appreciate your post and have heard of these issues that you have experienced in unfenced areas. However, my experiences in open areas have been vastly different and I can honestly say that I have thoroughly enjoyed every one. Of the nine open areas I have hunted, I saw a fair amount of people with Safaris de Mocambique along the shores of Lake Cahora Bassa in Mozambique and it was a bit of a turnoff but the hunting was good and I was there for a giant crocodile, primarily. Another area where I saw a scattering of people was in Tanzania in Massailand but I knew that going in and it wasn’t a problem and the Massai actually helped us at times. In the other open, wild areas I have hunted, I saw very few people.

Unlike a lot of people on this site, I look FIRST at the areas to hunt and NOT the PH. I research the areas extensively and if area doesn’t have the species I am interested in or the type of experience I am interested in, then the greatest PH in Africa hunting there wouldn’t matter to me. So, my advice is to research areas first and PHs second. Most great areas will have great PHs anyway. I look at the remoteness of the area, whether it borders any national parks, the species available and if the operator does a lot of anti-poaching. It’s no mistake that I hunted Zambia in 2022 bordering Kafue NP with an operator that does extensive anti-poaching. Same for hunting in Botswana bordering both the un-hunted Moremi Game Reserve and Chobe NP, as well as the Niassa Reserve in northern Mozambique and Coutada 9 in Mozambique where the operators do serious anti-poaching. This year I will be in Tanzania again, this time bordering Serengeti NP on the park’s west side.

I certainly am not against hunting on a large fenced property. After my 2021 free-range elephant hunt in Botswana, I traveled to an 18,000 acre private ranch and hunted a gemsbok. However, I have zero interest in “put and take” shooting or shooting animals that are on smaller properties and/or animals that are supplementally fed. I am currently researching a rhino hunt, all of which take place behind a fence, but I am looking at the sizes of properties and whether or not the hunt is done for any rhino we come across or if only for a specific, known rhino is the only animal I can take. There are some very large properties in SA with rhino hunting that is as close to the good ole days of free range rhino hunting as possible right now. I have yet to make a decision but I’m getting closer.

I also have the advantage of having been in the hunting industry for more than 30 years so I have heard of a lot of great hunts, and some not-so-great hunts, from my clients. I certainly have a lot more to learn but if I can help recommend areas to you or other members, send me a PM. My advice is not to give up on wild areas yet.

Thanks for the help. I like you am in the industry, I run a camera for an outdoor hunting show and I've hunted literally all over the world and I've researched many, many hunts for our group so I have a good idea what to look for and the questions to ask. I would love any ideas on a wild area with good buffalo quality that doesn't cost more than twice as much as SA.

 

[Gerry Addison]

Alright, I have decided on MY definition of "wild"....it has to do with more than the main species I may be after. I think wild has to do more with the "neighborhood", that is, what are you likely to bump into while out hunting that you have to take pains to avoid/detour around. This includes elephants, elephants with young, herds of buffalo, or hippos on land returning to water at first light, lions or even camp leopards coming through camp after lights out (and enough game to feed the predators), or as Tanks just mentioned, coming across lions following the same buff you are following, crocodiles whose presence means you don't loiter near the water's edge--even to fish off the bank, baboons cheeky enough to challenge you, and maybe exotic and dangerous reptiles, and the usual etc, etc. This leads to the second part of the definition--the possibility of PAC which might involve you getting invited to help sort it out. Ditto with helping out on poaching. It is a place where you are likely to hear a big cat as you are dosing off to sleep. The terrain can often be intimidating--lots of tall grass--taller than you had imagined and with the swishing sound of elephants passing by that are different than the sounds of puku which are different than the sound of spooked buffalo--all unseen at close range. It might involve jess bush. It might involve the superstitious side of the equation, with paying off the witch doctor or having the PH insist your rifle gets his blessing, or asking for his help when nothing is working and having things inexplicably turn around. It certainly includes a lack of city bred meaness in any indigenous persons, and a natural hospitality devoid of racial politics. It requires boiling water, lots of shots, and suffering a bit. A real chest beating experience!

I totally agree with you and my hunt in Zambia provided many of the things you talk about here with hippo and elephants in camp at night. All great experiences that I really loved, just no trophy quality animals. I left there saying to all I had a great time, but I would not return there.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

December 2022 on De Klerk Safaris in North west province fenced CBL hunt 3 buffalo bulls chasing the lioness into a tree.

I don't care where it is, I'd like to see that!

 

[Rubberhead]

This thread should be called, "Africa has something for everyone."

 

[Gerry Addison]

Hello Gerry Addison,

I very much enjoyed reading your post.
Nothing hits a bullseye more “Center-X” than the bald face truth and I salute you for it.

First off, I apologize for my following rant, reading like an advertisement for Khomas Safaris.
In truth (there’s that word again), it is pretty much that for sure.
However, it seems to me that people likely will hear from at least a few if not, many outfitters here on this topic.
Therefore, if I have helped anyone in their search for an excellent safari experience, then I have done right.
However, if I have offended anyone by touting the outfit I work for and am so proud of plus mentioning my friend’s name down in the Limpopo area, please forgive.
No harm was intended.

Anyway;
Like yours, my first trip to Africa was a flop, due to having trusted Cabela’s “Outdoor Adventure” department or whatever they called it, back in or around 2003, as I recall (I am getting old and foggy).
I was mostly interested in Namibia because it had so few people and Namibia’s prices were and still often are a tad lower than many other African countries.
Equally important to me is that there are both not-game-fenced, very wild places left to hunt in Namibia and, high fenced / game fenced areas as well, take your pick.
As you and others have pointed out, there are advantages to both.

Anyway, Cabela’s had booked myself and a hunting partner into an outfit called “Burchell Safaris”, located near Ketmanshoop, Namibia.
Burchell Safaris owned about 96,000 acres in one piece.
However, that safari company turned out to be slippery and according to internet chatter, eventually collapsed under a flurry of law suits from angry clients.

Upon receiving my crate of ruined skulls (over-boiled / crumbling apart), horns covered in what looked like, and felt like plus, smelled like axle grease, also my very putrid smelling yet “plywood hard” zebra skin, I phoned Cabela’s (more than one time).
I never got a live person to answer.
So, I left voice messages each time.
Then, I emailed them plus, I wrote a pen and paper letter to them.
Nonetheless, they refused to respond to ANY of my efforts.
This was despite my opening each time with; “I do not want anything at all from you
except your awareness that you are endorsing a disappointing safari company”.
Then I listed in numerical order, all of the many things that had angered myself and my hunting partner.
No response from Cabela’s, zero, zip, nada …. total silence.

Elsewhere in this forum I listed details.
Just a couple of brief examples here:
1.
Burchell Safaris led me to believe warthog was available on their property.
It was my #1 animal of interest (I’m not the most sophisticated chap and that is for sure).
96,000 acres in one piece, beautiful real estate but, we never saw one swine of any sort.
The PH (who’s children by the way, acted like wild ferrets, loud, rude and selfish little imps), sheepishly admitted that there were no warthog there at all, never have been, because there was not enough water in that place for them to survive.
He also said it was too far to drive to good warthog habitat from there.
2.
Yet, he drove us a very long way to hunt gemsbok, down in The Kalahari.
There, we found the Kalahari land owner, herding his gemsboks toward hunters, by recklessly racing after them, in a home made hillbilly loud contraption of a dune buggy.
Nauseating, simply disgusting.

Just like yourself, due to my first experience there, I too was tempted to brush Africa off my shirt, like a moldy cracker crumb.
However again just like yourself, I decided to try once more.
I spent much time and effort in researching one safari company after another.
This has resulted in myself being blessed to have experienced 6 hunting trips to Africa, so far.

Back at that stage, I did not much care which country I might end up in for my 2nd try at Africa, just so long as I didn’t get the old “bait and switch” trick played on me and my friend/s again.
I eventually settled on Hannes Swanepoel Safaris of South Africa (near Gravelotte, Limpopo District) for my second trip to Africa.

Hannes turned out to be a very honest and hard working fellow.
The buffalo in my avatar was taken by myself while he was the PH for me.
It was on about 100,000 acres known as “Maruli or Baruli” (I never saw it written so I’m not sure of the spelling).
Most of Hannes’s leases (about 500,000 acres in total but, in several separate plots) are high fenced.
But Maruli / Baruli - whichever, had only a fence on ONE side of that beautiful and game rich concession, up beside the road, to keep villagers from grazing their ragtag cattle and goats in there.
One side of this concession was bordered by the Olifants River.
The other side of this river is Kruger Park.
All manner of critters, from elephant, on down were present there.
They crossed back and forth through the river at will.
There were hippos in the pools and crocodiles sunning themselves on the sand bars.
We even saw a truly wild lioness briefly crouching in the shade of the thick riverine foliage on “our” side of the river.
Then she bolted away from us.

Although I do prefer Namibia, again due to their very user friendly main airport, their country’s low density of human population, combined with plenty of not-high-fenced areas and of course, often times lower prices, nonetheless, I would probably hunt South Africa again, if something there really caught my attention and that I found extra tempting.
An affordable tuskless (or otherwise) elephant permit comes to mind.
I won’t hold my breath on that one (but, stranger things have happened you know).

Anyway, I have hunted with Hannes 3 times and we are still friends.
If one wants to hunt in South Africa, a hunter could do a lot worse than booking with my friend Hannes Swanepoel there.

Having said all that, indeed I do work for and am repeatedly humbled by the owner of Khomas Safaris, Phillip Hennings, up in the Khomas Hochland Highlands of Namibia.
It is my home away from home.
His family’s land there is primarily not high game fenced.
Most of his fellow land owners have not high fenced their huge properties either.
Zebras and gemsboks migrate up and down the mountains, to and from the low desert there, according to the rains each season.
Also, a few eland migrate those same game trails as well, just as they have for centuries.
The land owners have agreed to not hunt them up there, until their numbers return again some day.
Plentiful eland hunting is done within driving distance of Khomas, but just not yet right at Philip’s house and lodge.

There is only a high fence around about 1,000 acres of the little (compared to the entire conservancy) spot where Philip’s house and his new lodge are located.
There is no hunting inside this fence, as he has kept it for viewing and photographing animals such as sable, giraffe, eland, impalas and various assorted others, right in front of and all around the lodge viranda and guest cabins

Well anyway, my long-winded narrative is finally over.
And, I’m glad we had this little meeting.LoL

Best Regards and Safe Hunting to all,
Velo Dog.

Thank you a very good read.

 

[Gerry Addison]

Nothing puts me off more than cow bells and local people wandering around on my hunt. Not to mention the danger of accidentally shooting an animal and suddenly it was a prize bull. Worse still by orders of magnitude a person and your life is ruined. Once years ago on a private ranch doing night time jackal control with a shotgun a group of people suddenly appeared out of the gloom with bundles of wood on their heads that they were illegally collecting. We just went straight home.
It is a great pity about your bad experience in Zimbabwe Gerry, there are indeed some truly wild areas here, expensive but not bank breaking.
I have hunted South Africa only twice, but visited large fenced game areas without hunting and the definition that divides it for me is 'fenced hunting areas as a unit block' or 'mixed game/farming areas with internal fenced paddocs'. The latter are a joke and really spoil it for the former true hunting operations. I find nothing wrong at all in a large fenced hunting block. Remember those high fences are there as much to keep domestic livestock and people out as they are to keep game in.
I agree with @Red Leg that the final criterion is that the game mest be endemic to that area, reintroduced is fine, but an introduced zoo is not. No artificials for me either, it is like bling hunting imo.
I am seriously considering some SA hunts, even though it adds the hassle of the rifle export permit.

I totally agree with everything you have said. No internal fences is a must for me and animals raised on the property and limited quota.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

If money were no object, I’d want to only hunt in Tanzania. Hunter’s paradise in every definition of the word.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

If money were no object, I’d want to only hunt in....

Now that is the real factor in all of this, money. There is also time and one's health/physical condition, but I think that available money is the key.

For a reasonable amount of money one can have a pretty good to great hunt in South Africa. There will be fences although one may likely never see them while scouting or afoot.

For that amount or a little more money, one can hunt in the tribal, campfire areas of Zimbabwe. There will be no fences but one will encounter cow bells, and locals in ox carts, on bicycles, or afoot. How about when tracking elephant for hours and it/they cross a small dirt road. When the PH tells you that's if for the day because the ele left the 10,000 acre block for which he has a permit. Right then, at least for a minute, one will wish there were fences!

Then there are cull hunts that can produce great experiences at the cost of not having trophies to send home. Perhaps non-exportable and tuskless elephant are in a similar category? Great experience and memories, but without anything but photos for the trophy room.

In planning for the above or any hunt, getting feedback from multiple sources that hunted the subject area/ranch and used specific PHs will help to identify what one doesn't want. I find the Private Messaging followed with phone conversations very revealing!

Good luck to all in finding the African hunting experience that satisfies our desires!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Now that is the real factor in all of this, money. There is also time and one's health/physical condition, but I think that available money is the key.

For a reasonable amount of money one can have a pretty good to great hunt in South Africa. There will be fences although one may likely never see them while scouting or afoot.

For that amount or a little more money, one can hunt in the tribal, campfire areas of Zimbabwe. There will be cow bells, and locals in ox carts, on bicycles, or afoot.

Of the above, getting feedback from multiple sources that hunted the subject area/ranch and used specific PHs will help to identify what one doesn't want. I find the Private Messaging followed with phone conversations very revealing!

Good luck to all in finding the African hunting experience that satisfies our desires!

You summed it up so sensibly, Mark. South Africa is like a really nice ribeye steak. Perfectly enjoyable in it’s own right.

But Tanzania is a grade 5 A12 Kobe beef ribeye. The ultimate indulgence but so damned expensive. As a young child, I also once dreamt of hunting in the Belgian Congo after reading “Tin Tin In The Congo”.

But I will say one thing: If you want to hunt truly wild lion in the most regal manner, Tanzania has no rival. Only for lion.

 

[WAB]

I am very sorry to hear about these poor experiences some of you have had. I have hunted three different properties in SA. Two of those properties were outstanding. I would only classify one as poor, and that didn’t really matter as it was simply a place to chill in a beautiful lodge after a successful Klaserie buffalo hunt.

I have hunted truly wild areas in Botswana, Zambia, Zimbabwe and Mozambique. I feel truly fortunate after reading these posts, as all were outstanding tracking hunts.

Namibia is interesting in that the country is largely ranched, so somewhat settled. However, the ranches are generally huge and high fencing is not predominant. It makes for a very interesting hunt for truly wild endemic animals.

If I were on a budget and wanted to experience a true tracking hunt for wild, endemic species, I would hunt Eland in Northern Botswana or the Otavi area of Namibia.

 

[Gerry Addison]

If money were no object, I’d want to only hunt in Tanzania. Hunter’s paradise in every definition of the word.

I agree if money were no object.

 

[375Fox]

There is nothing that compares to hunting wild Africa to me. When I refer to wild Africa I’m usually referring to a concession area owned by government or community outside South Africa. To really be “wild” I feel it needs to have lions and leopards. If they are missing or not in area full time it shows the area is likely in decline. Booking a wild area, I really feel the concession needs to be top priority for a good hunt. The PH is a close second but still second. I’ve never had an issue finding trophy animals in wild areas. The number of trophies will often be less, but the experience far outweighs the number of trophies. I realize price is a consideration for everyone but if you want to hunt quality wild areas you just need to accept price or move on. Searching for a deal can lead to issues.
This was my hunt last year in Zimbabwe in Dande East 16 days, all primary trophies buffalo, sable, roan were taken in the first 7.

This was my hunt in Kaokoland in NW Namibia north of the veterinary fence 2018. The outfitter had 3 conservancies at time totaling 1.5 million area communal land. These were taken in 6 hunting days along with zebra and ostrich at standard plains game pricing.

I’ve had other equally successful hunts, but don’t have the final skinning shed photos readily available. Good areas do exist with some research. There are a lot of areas I don’t feel should be being marketed but unfortunately still are.
South Africa has great hunting. I will hunt again. However the fencing can be a great thing or the opposite depending how it gets used. If a property is managed on a quota system and the fence is used to protect what’s inside it’s a great thing. If the fence is used to continuously stock what’s inside to sell larger numbers of trophy animals to hunters I hate the fence. There is a continual effort to downplay put and take hunting and fences in South Africa by just a few bad operations, but i think that’s being careless with the truth. The buffalo and sable breeding operations are very visible in Limpopo. The only end destination for the bulls is high fenced hunting ranches to supplement trophies removed. The game ranching videos with color variants and huge trophies are readily available on YouTube. The only market for this is hunting again. South Africa invented CBL lion hunting. Farm raising a lion in small pen on chickens then releasing 72 hours before a hunt into a bigger enclosure (then selling the bones to China). I see there is a post that South Africa is criticized because of its success. I’d say it’s criticized because of general acceptance and downplaying of these practices by outfitters there. If releasing a lion hours for shooting is hunting. I’m much more willing to question what other practices they are willing to accept or ways they will market their hunts. Whether an animal runs away from me doesn’t make it wild hunting to me. I’d like know animal was born on property and untouched by humans other than protecting area. Shooting a buffalo or sable raised as livestock then released into a hunting area isn’t a trophy to me whether it runs away from me or not. I’ll hunt South Africa again, but the practices that happen there don’t happen elsewhere (at least to that extent). I feel a lot of hunting in South Africa is borderline between commercial livestock farming and actual hunting. I’ll do as much due diligence to find a property managed on quotas as I would to find a quality wild unfenced area.

 

[Flewis]

must say i think the op of this thread said it pretty well
do agree with many others too
i may have a slightly different outlook to many other hunters and outfitters for that matter

i have hunted, not taken people hunting, hunted for myself my own hunts in the following places
south africa-limpopo-grew up hunting on low fence cattle farms with "free roaming" game, impala, kudu, warthog
south africa- southern free state- low fence sheep farms with"free roaming" game, springbuck, blesbuck, mountain reedbuck, black wildebeest
south africa-kalahari- for CBL lions
zimbabwe- border of gonarezhou-rundu river area, for elephant, croc, hippo
namibia- erongo crater, damraland area, for springbuck, mountain zebra, damara dik dik, oryx
scotland- beauly, for red stag
germany- southern parts, roe buck and wild boar
poland- far north near Gdansk, some areas in middle all the way down to Cisna in the very southern point , roe buck, wild boar, red deer
Czechoslovakia- middle hunted for Mouflon
austria- Fontanella, for Chamois

i may have missed a few?

now with this personal hunting experience i have drawn one conclusion that i always stand by.
"when in rome, do as the romans do"

this has quite a widespread meaning, but in my opinion it means this
listen to your "local" guide he knows whats going on.
if in that area they have best success sitting in a high seat, then do that
if you need to walk up mountains then do that
if you have to hunt at night then do that
do whatever it takes, and enjoy yourself doing it
it can be hard at times even life threatening, but its way better then doing a million other things!!!
ive been pulling cruisers out of flooding rivers at night in a downpour , to sitting in snow -30 deg c waiting for a f#cking beaver, to having a vehicle frozen into the ice after being in a high seat for 12 hours, to scaling icy snowy mountains, walking 15km in 45 deg c heat.

yes there will be some cockups along the way and dishonest people and lying guides and shitty areas etc etc. but hay we still hunting.

so it it better hunting in SA or "wild africa". neither honestly as long as you are hunting
they all different!!!! and cannot be compared.

remember this my friends, one mans shit is another mans champagne.
my idea of a great hunt is different to the next guys.
this is why i try and judge each client on his own, his own ability, personality,expecatations, health, passed experience etc and make that hunt the best it can possibly be.

looking forward.... to my next "hunting experience"

Very well and simply put!

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

I read this article and posted it several years ago. I think it captures a lot of the issues discussed here.

The Third Way By Peter Ryan

I was checking out some of the AH sponsor's websites this morning and came across this article from @hansv. It's well worth reading. http://cvsafaris.co.za/the-third-way-by-peter-ryan/ Dave

www.africahunting.com

 

[uplander01]

Imo it’s all about the outfitter and how long they have been established in the “wild area”. Check references, ask specifically about people on these forums.

 

[Tanks]

...In the so called Wild Africa they're only harvesting and that's a fact. They put nothing back and don't care about the animals or management, but only the money. ..

My opinion.

Well, unfortunately your opinion is based on falsehoods. The outfitters, at least in Zimbabwe, fund and run anti-poaching patrols, contribute to communities (building and funding schools, clinics etc.).

You are right about the game management though. They do not buy game and release them in hunting concessions as they are not a livestock operation, unlike RSA farms.

While I am critical of DG hunting in RSA for a multitude of reasons that I have stated in the past I have recommended hunting PG in RSA to multiple people and provided contacts based on reviews here (@KMG Hunting Safaris , @JKO HUNTING SAFARIS , @HUNTERSHILL safaris etc. ). I have also talked people out of hunting lions in RSA as well.

Overall, one cannot beat RSA pricing for an introduction to Africa hunting for PG.