Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[HankBuck]

So couldn’t these guys select a bad bullet for any particular caliber and get bad results too? It seems silly to blame the caliber for the poor choices of those that use them.

I know a gent here in Arizona who may very likely hold the record for most Coues deer, think smallish whitetail, ever taken. He’s a lifelong Arizona resident and had many years of multiple tags, versus now you need some luck to get even one.

He killed them all with his 6mm, virtually the 243 equivalent.

Phoenix Phil, are you “selling” the .243 hunting performance based on its track record on “Coues” deer? I’m a fan of the .243 and believe that Bullet Placement trumps everything, the .243 is adequate for any deer (Though Not the Best). But Don’t “embarrass” the .243 cartridge by touting it for game where a .22lr is almost Too-Much-Gun. Doesn’t an average Coues Deer (aka “whitetail fawn”) fit in most upland bird hunting vests - and still leave room for a limit of pheasants? Can a carefully butchered Coues Deer even feed a family of 4 one dinner? These mice-with-antlers aren’t the best test of the .243 and may sway others to join the Magnum Craze.

 

[HankBuck]

@Ontario Hunter
I was out with my son and a mate and spotted a mob of pigs at around 600 yards. We stalked in to around 200 and both mate and son wanted to shoot from there. I said no the winds good so we will stalk in closer. At 20 yards the started shooting, 5 pigs later the action was over. I asked what's better possibly one pig each at 200 or the whole mob at 20. Both agreed the lot at 20. Greg was amazed we got that close but I told him that's what hunting is. Testing you skills to get as close as possible to game.
Yes at times that's not possible and that's where shooting skills comes into play.
To enjoy our lifestyle we need to be both hunters and shooters to enjoy the sport fully.
Bob

Bob, too bad you didn’t have a trusty .243 - coulda saved a lot of walking and crawling and taken the “Pig herd” from 200 yrds....

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phoenix Phil, are you “selling” the .243 hunting performance based on its track record on “Coues” deer? I’m a fan of the .243 and believe that Bullet Placement trumps everything, the .243 is adequate for any deer (Though Not the Best). But Don’t “embarrass” the .243 cartridge by touting it for game where a .22lr is almost Too-Much-Gun. Doesn’t an average Coues Deer (aka “whitetail fawn”) fit in most upland bird hunting vests - and still leave room for a limit of pheasants? Can a carefully butchered Coues Deer even feed a family of 4 one dinner? These mice-with-antlers aren’t the best test of the .243 and may sway others to join the Magnum Craze.

I'm not selling anything. The Coues deer I've killed have been with my 7mm Rem Mag. But that has to do with the distances involved and a flat shooting caliber. Yes, Coues are smaller, but whitetail fawn small? Not quite that small.

Furthermore I've never owned much less hunted with a .243. But the criticism that it's too small for deer I find to be laughable. Especially if someone choose to use a poor bullet and blame it on the caliber.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Yes Bob, with pigs when the wind is in your favour get as close as you can , there eye sight is not good but their sense of smell is very good , we have found that if they are feeding & not facing you it is not hard to get up to may be 40 meters from them if you have some cover, & if they look at you do not move & often they will lose interest . but its much easier shoot before they run so do not try to get closer if they are aware of you.

Pigs can be pretty easy to stalk if the wind is right. They don't tend to pay much attention to what they can see if they don't smell or hear your approach. I have stalked to within 20 yards of them, but on the same ranch I also spotted a a bunch of them going over a ridge across a canyon and took one at about 300 yards. Both skill sets are true hunting. Neither skill makes someone a better hunter, but if you can't do both, you won't be as good as someone who can.

 

[Woodcarver]

While not related, javelina act like the little pigs they resemble. I was crouched in a sendero with the wind to me, and had a good size boar walk right up to me, starting about 50 yards away. Could have used a spear, but I shot him with my flat shootin' 44-40 at about 4' from the muzzle. That 205gr cast bullet doing about 1200fps out of that '92 Winchester dropped him on the spot. Full penetration I might add, as it went through his neck taking out a couple vertebrae....

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Uh...No. In the chaparral of Northern California you can rarely see a blacktail buck at 50 yards even if you could manage to get that close. Climbing to the top of a ridge quietly enough and spotting a deer standing or seeking through the incredibly dense brush across the canyon and then taking him cleanly at 300 yards is true hunting. Taking one that happens to blunder into a crossing on a two track at 50 yards where you happen to be is just luck and fast shooting. I have taken bucks under both circumstances and being able to find the deer and place the shot is real hunting. In Africa, tracking and stalking to within 50 yards of a cape buffalo bull is real hunting. I've done that twice. Shooting a whitetail from a blind that comes into a feeder at 50 yards requires patience, but I don't really think of it as hunting. Now try pronghorns. The biggest one I've taken was right about 100 yards, but if you think that you can count on that or that killing one at 300 yards is less about hunting skill, you are mistaken. There's also elk hunting in the mountainous west. Is that only hunting if you kill one at under 100 yards?

Sorry. Your "basic math" equation when applied to all hunting would only seem accurate to the naive and inexperienced.

I shot twelve of thirteen elk in the mountains of Montana under 100 yards and very close to many others I couldn't shoot (wrong sex). Actually, I found elk relatively easy to get close to. They are a social animal. Use the wind and be careful and they often as not wait to see what's coming on the track. Moose, on the other hand, are solitary critters. If it hears ANYTHING on the track, it's gone. If you can call, that might turn it around. But I never called anything that was in the rut. Never felt it was ethical. I'm a tracker.

 

[steve white]

I shot twelve of thirteen elk in the mountains of Montana under 100 yards and very close to many others I couldn't shoot (wrong sex). Actually, I found elk relatively easy to get close to. They are a social animal. Use the wind and be careful and they often as not wait to see what's coming on the track. Moose, on the other hand, are solitary critters. If it heres ANYTHING on the track, it's gone. If you can call, that might turn it around. But I never called anything that was in the rut. Never felt it was ethical. I'm a tracker.

Yep my uncle Tim went to an island off of Alaska to hunt moose. Tried stalking and never even saw one. The old timers said "don't you know that moose can hear better than anything."

 

[Ontario Hunter]

When people make blanket statements like that it makes you wonder how many places and how much they have hunted.

Hmmn. Let's see ... this was my first elk but not my first big game animal. I'd already been hunting seven years.

And here's the buck I shot a couple weeks ago.

More than a hundred other animals taken during the fifty-two years between these two. Three different countries. I'm no novice. Been around long enough to know there's more to hunting than shooting stuff.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I shot twelve of thirteen elk in the mountains of Montana under 100 yards and very close to many others I couldn't shoot (wrong sex). Actually, I found elk relatively easy to get close to. They are a social animal. Use the wind and be careful and they often as not wait to see what's coming on the track. Moose, on the other hand, are solitary critters. If it heres ANYTHING on the track, it's gone. If you can call, that might turn it around. But I never called anything that was in the rut. Never felt it was ethical. I'm a tracker.

Again, that would depend on the elk and terrain. I have known guys that used a .45-70 or .444 Marlin to take Roosevelt elk at close range in the Pacific Northwest. Those tactics likely wouldn't work out so well in the Rockies or other open country. Only those that have very limited experience would state that any shot over 200 yards is just shooting and not hunting.

I will say that I agree that a 400 plus shot in Africa might not be real hunting. Africa tends to be good stalking country. I've never been tempted yo shoot that far at anything there that far away. The last shot I took there was at about 300. It was an impala ewe that the property manager asked me to take for meat. She didn't know we were there, no stalking was involved and we were standing by the truck. Bang-flop, great meat, but I didn't consider that a hunt either. That does not mean that any shot over 200 yards is just shooting. It all depends on the game, terrain and circumstances.

 

[HankBuck]

I'm not selling anything. The Coues deer I've killed have been with my 7mm Rem Mag. But that has to do with the distances involved and a flat shooting caliber. Yes, Coues are smaller, but whitetail fawn small? Not quite that small.

Furthermore I've never owned much less hunted with a .243. But the criticism that it's too small for deer I find to be laughable. Especially if someone choose to use a poor bullet and blame it on the caliber.

PhoenixPhil, we agree on the .243 being very adequate for deer - I’ve taken 1/2 dozen whitetail and one black bear with the.243 (the bear was unexpected). Question: Would you consider the .25-06 near perfect for Coues deer at long distance ? Less “bazooka” like then the 7mm. I don’t have much long range deer shooting opportunities where I hunt - only when I travel out west and then I like my .270. Must be nice to see game from a distance on a regular basis, any “stalk” is a rare treat for me

 

[BRICKBURN]

As @WAB noted:

There’s a big difference in expressing opinions to pass along knowledge, and expressing opinions to belittle and insult others.


Merry Christmas!

 

[thriller]

As @WAB noted:

There’s a big difference in expressing opinions to pass along knowledge, and expressing opinions to belittle and insult others.


Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas

 

[steve white]

Again, that would depend on the elk and terrain. I have known guys that used a .45-70 or .444 Marlin to take Roosevelt elk at close range in the Pacific Northwest. Those tactics likely wouldn't work out so well in the Rockies or other open country. Only those that have very limited experience would state that any shot over 200 yards is just shooting and not hunting.

I will say that I agree that a 400 plus shot in Africa might not be real hunting. Africa tends to be good stalking country. I've never been tempted yo shoot that far at anything there that far away. The last shot I took there was at about 300. It was an impala ewe that the property manager asked me to take for meat. She didn't know we were there, no stalking was involved and we were standing by the truck. Bang-flop, great meat, but I didn't consider that a hunt either. That does not mean that any shot over 200 yards is just shooting. It all depends on the game, terrain and circumstances.

Had a friend who hunted Roosevelt elk with a 375 H&H--they hunted knife edge ridges and wanted them to drop to the shot if possible, otherwise a long downhill retrieve.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

PhoenixPhil, we agree on the .243 being very adequate for deer - I’ve taken 1/2 dozen whitetail and one black bear with the.243 (the bear was unexpected). Question: Would you consider the .25-06 near perfect for Coues deer at long distance ? Less “bazooka” like then the 7mm. I don’t have much long range deer shooting opportunities where I hunt - only when I travel out west and then I like my .270. Must be nice to see game from a distance on a regular basis, any “stalk” is a rare treat for me

Fair enough, I may have misunderstood you, been on the road the last two days. Certainly the .25-06 would be a good choice for Coues. Near perfect? Man that's hard to say, especially with the scope we have available today to help with vertical adjustments.

Spotting Coues is not so much something done on a regular basis. It's a game that takes time to learn. As @WAB i think will concur, you don't learn this in one hunt, or at least not until the end of that hunt. Lots of time behind the binoculars and/or spotting scope dissecting a hill in sections over and over again is the only way I know how to learn.

But hang with it and then at some point you get it. You spot an ear, a portion of a deer's ass, maybe even just an eye and you realize that's something I need to keep the glass on. And sure enough, at some point, the deer reveals itself as a buck or a doe.

Coues are careful creatures and outside of the rut they move slowly and carefully. A wonderful trophy and a very satisfying hunt, even if you shoot one beyond apparently the proper "hunt" vs "shoot" distance of 100 yards.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob, too bad you didn’t have a trusty .243 - coulda saved a lot of walking and crawling and taken the “Pig herd” from 200 yrds....

@hank Buck
If I had a 243 I would have to get real close so I could beat them on the heed with it. More effective than shooting then with that horrible little round.
Bob

 

[HankBuck]

@hank Buck
If I had a 243 I would have to get real close so I could beat them on the heed with it. More effective than shooting then with that horrible little round.
Bob

So BOB, at least now you admit you’d “try” a .243 ? Nice to see you have an open mind and Looks like my logic is wearing you down. Maybe Santa will leave one under your tree - Merry Christmas !

 

[HankBuck]

Fair enough, I may have misunderstood you, been on the road the last two days. Certainly the .25-06 would be a good choice for Coues. Near perfect? Man that's hard to say, especially with the scope we have available today to help with vertical adjustments.

Spotting Coues is not so much something done on a regular basis. It's a game that takes time to learn. As @WAB i think will concur, you don't learn this in one hunt, or at least not until the end of that hunt. Lots of time behind the binoculars and/or spotting scope dissecting a hill in sections over and over again is the only way I know how to learn.

But hang with it and then at some point you get it. You spot an ear, a portion of a deer's ass, maybe even just an eye and you realize that's something I need to keep the glass on. And sure enough, at some point, the deer reveals itself as a buck or a doe.

Coues are careful creatures and outside of the rut they move slowly and carefully. A wonderful trophy and a very satisfying hunt, even if you shoot one beyond apparently the proper "hunt" vs "shoot" distance of 100 yards.

Phoenix, now you’ve got me thinking about a Coues Hunt because it sounds difficult - just finding one and then making a long shot on a “small” target. If I lived around them I’m certain I would be chasing them on a regular basis. But for me, it requires a trip out West and a Guide - expensive and especially when I think the objective is to shoot my “smallest bodied, smallest racked” buck ever. Obviously everything is relative and a 120” Coues buck is (I believe) above average —— I just need to get my head around that. But I do Not doubt the skill and effort required to get one and for me it’s always the “effort” that makes an animal a Trophy.

 

[MS 9x56]

As @WAB noted:

There’s a big difference in expressing opinions to pass along knowledge, and expressing opinions to belittle and insult others.


Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas to you and your family and best wishes for a happy new year.

 

[WAB]

Phoenix, now you’ve got me thinking about a Coues Hunt because it sounds difficult - just finding one and then making a long shot on a “small” target. If I lived around them I’m certain I would be chasing them on a regular basis. But for me, it requires a trip out West and a Guide - expensive and especially when I think the objective is to shoot my “smallest bodied, smallest racked” buck ever. Obviously everything is relative and a 120” Coues buck is (I believe) above average —— I just need to get my head around that. But I do Not doubt the skill and effort required to get one and for me it’s always the “effort” that makes an animal a Trophy.

Be careful Hank, the little rascals are addictive and expensive. I think a 25-06 would be a wonderful Coues deer cartridge. In fact, one of our members built a Ruger No 1 in .25-06 specifically for Coues. I had a rifle built in 6.5 PRC for this game. A 142 gr high BC bullet at 2950 seemed like just the thing. Did I mention that they are expensive?

 

[Joker12]

Be careful Hank, the little rascals are addictive and expensive. I think a 25-06 would be a wonderful Coues deer cartridge. In fact, one of our members built a Ruger No 1 in .25-06 specifically for Coues. I had a rifle built in 6.5 PRC for this game. A 142 gr high BC bullet at 2950 seemed like just the thing. Did I mention that they are expensive?

A nice 257 Roberts would also be a dandy.