Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[375er]

That strikes me as being more grey matter specific than cartridge.

Yep! Cannot argue that point. In my opionion no one should be shooting at game at 700 yards.

 

[375Ruger416]

Nope. Never can, never will. ‘Flat shooting, wind bucking cartridges’ will be marketing manna for ever. I like a 200 m zero myself on hunting cartridges and dial for elevation past 250 or 300. I don’t want to hit within 4” of my point of aim, I want to hit the hair I’m aiming at.

Obviously, with standard velocity cartridges will be +\- 2” out to 250 or so and that tradeoff is reasonable. +\- 3 or 3.9” is too much IMO. As far as ‘long distance hunting’, I agree closer is better. I do think that 450/500 yds is doable on a calm day from the prone position with practice. I’m amazed at how quickly animals die when hit cleanly through the vitals and unaware. OTOH, taking a shot on moving game or alerted animals can turn into a rodeo at much shorter ranges.

At the end of the day, I enjoy practicing out further and under more difficult conditions than any hunting shot I expect to take. That includes shooting offhand, in field positions, and out to long range. Knowing my limits and my ability to make a clean shot given the conditions gives me confidence to know if I should shoot or pass.

I should say, after all that, that I took my moose and whitetail at 30 and 120 yds respectively for my 7 rem mag. Holdover was not a consideration…

 

[MS 9x56]

Question:

Why do people with short action rilfes seem to prefer the longest possible, high BC bullets. Seems self limiting to me.

Because they’re afraid of “recoil”

 

[F. Vaccaro]

We don’t seem to be able to.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

 

[PCC600]

@sgt_zim
My 25 is set at 2 inches high at 100, depending on projectile it zeros at 275 to 300 yards and fulfilling your criteria at 325 to 350 yards.
The Whelen is sighted 2.5 to 3 inches high at 100 and has a point blank range between 200 and 300 yards depending on projectiles.
As you said most game is shot at 200 yards or less. If I was honest I have probably taken lees than 10 head of game past 350 yards in over 40 years. I would say at least 80% were between 50 to 150 yards. Yes it is nice having a flat shooter.
Is it needed very often, NO.
I could more than likely sight my rifles in to be spot on at 150 yards for a point blank range of 200 to 250 yards and be happy with that for the rest of my life for hunting.
Just my humble opinion.
Bob

All my scoped rifles - 303 , 7x57 , 30/06 , 375 H&H , 425 WR are set for an inch high at 50 yards . Nail everything at my hunting distances . Flat shooting who knows / who cares - but I have shot a real lot of things .

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Nope. Never can, never will. ‘Flat shooting, wind bucking cartridges’ will be marketing manna for ever. I like a 200 m zero myself on hunting cartridges and dial for elevation past 250 or 300. I don’t want to hit within 4” of my point of aim, I want to hit the hair I’m aiming at.

Obviously, with standard velocity cartridges will be +\- 2” out to 250 or so and that tradeoff is reasonable. +\- 3 or 3.9” is too much IMO. As far as ‘long distance hunting’, I agree closer is better. I do think that 450/500 yds is doable on a calm day from the prone position with practice. I’m amazed at how quickly animals die when hit cleanly through the vitals and unaware. OTOH, taking a shot on moving game or alerted animals can turn into a rodeo at much shorter ranges.

At the end of the day, I enjoy practicing out further and under more difficult conditions than any hunting shot I expect to take. That includes shooting offhand, in field positions, and out to long range. Knowing my limits and my ability to make a clean shot given the conditions gives me confidence to know if I should shoot or pass.

I should say, after all that, that I took my moose and whitetail at 30 and 120 yds respectively for my 7 rem mag. Holdover was not a consideration…

Okay, but what if your moose was standing at say 250 yards? You would have felt foolish with a .30-30. I have killed deer from 5 to around 400 yards. The one moose I've shot was running at 165 yards. Most of my deer were taken with a 7mm RM. The moose was with a .300 WM. The .30-30, .30-40, .35 Rem, etc. are just not the equal of modern, flat-shooting cartridges.

 

[375Ruger416]

Okay, but what if your moose was standing at say 250 yards? You would have felt foolish with a .30-30. I have killed deer from 5 to around 400 yards. The one moose I've shot was running at 165 yards. Most of my deer were taken with a 7mm RM. The moose was with a .300 WM. The .30-30, .30-40, .35 Rem, etc. are just not the equal of modern, flat-shooting cartridges.

I’d consider inside 400 yds very reasonable for any of the standard capacity, bottlenose cartridges since the 30/06. Some are ‘flatter’, but inside that distance the differences are small.

The very high BC magnum cartridges really come into their own past 6 or 700 yds IMO. And, the ultra-high velocity cartridges like the Weatherby‘s, Nosler’s, and RUM’s are very flat inside 400 yds and extend the MPBR. In both cases, you need a big difference in speed, BC or both to see a significant difference inside traditional hunting ranges. For me, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze (increased muzzle blast, recoil, etc). With modern rangefinders and ballistic turrets wind-drift is a far bigger challenge outside point-blank range than drop.

That said, you’re right about the lever action cartridges - but I don’t have any. My hunting cartridges were 243, 6.5 CM, and 7 RM. I‘m moving to 6.5 and 300 PRC and am getting a 375 H&H for Africa. I have a 223 for varmints and coyotes, so if I can’t do it with those 4 cartridges it doesn’t need to be done. I have been drooling over a new Marlin 45/70 for a bear gun, but I really don’t need one so I’ll probably keep drooling and window-shopping.

In any case, ‘flat-shooting’ is not a big consideration for me and it certainly is over-emphasized. I think about recoil, terminal effect, wind drift and retained velocity more than trajectory.

 

[Flewis]

Those flat shooting cartridges are also better in the wind.

 

[akrifleman]

Those flat shooting cartridges are also better in the wind.

That is absolutely not true. Wind deflection is purely a product of bullet BC. The cartridge is objectively irrelevant.

Most of the very high velocity cartridges throw extraordinarily poor BC as they were created before such things were ever considered, and do not have the twists or throating for high BC bullets. They may have been better in the wind compared to the previous cartridges of their era, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

Compare a 270 win to a 6.5 creedmoor. The 270 has more velocity and drops less @ 500 yds than the Creedmoor, at double the wind drift. By 600 yds the velocity advantages switches, but the wind drift only widens. Wait!!! I'm not ethically shooting at 500 yds! Fine. At 300 yds what difference does it make then? Nothing drops that much and nothing drifts that much.

Even a 45-70 shoots flat enough at 300 yds to hit anything. If your past 300 then you better be accurate with ranging, and reading and compensating for wind is EVERYTHING.

 

[Flewis]

Shooting the same bc bullet faster is both flatter and has wind drift. Time of flight makes a big difference on both. Should say less wind drift..

 

[akrifleman]

Shooting the same bc bullet faster is both flatter and has wind drift. Time of flight makes a big difference on both. Should say less wind drift..

Yup.

Which, really is the problem. "Flat shooting" is just an archaic term without definition. Like a pre-SAAMI cartridges (aka 38-55). Drop and drift provide angular measurement.

None of which measure bushcraft or positional shooting ability ;-)

 

[Rule 303]

That is absolutely not true. Wind deflection is purely a product of bullet BC. The cartridge is objectively irrelevant.

Most of the very high velocity cartridges throw extraordinarily poor BC as they were created before such things were ever considered, and do not have the twists or throating for high BC bullets. They may have been better in the wind compared to the previous cartridges of their era, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

Compare a 270 win to a 6.5 creedmoor. The 270 has more velocity and drops less @ 500 yds than the Creedmoor, at double the wind drift. By 600 yds the velocity advantages switches, but the wind drift only widens. Wait!!! I'm not ethically shooting at 500 yds! Fine. At 300 yds what difference does it make then? Nothing drops that much and nothing drifts that much.

Even a 45-70 shoots flat enough at 300 yds to hit anything. If your past 300 then you better be accurate with ranging, and reading and compensating for wind is EVERYTHING.

Strewth! I would hate to see the hold over on that 45-70 for a 300 yard shot, and the 444 Marlin is even worse.

By the way with what you say about the 270 and 6.5 Crudy. What bullet weights are you talking about. As a 140 grain Crudy has away better BC then a 130grain 270.

 

[akrifleman]

Strewth! I would hate to see the hold over on that 45-70 for a 300 yard shot, and the 444 Marlin is even worse.

By the way with what you say about the 270 and 6.5 Crudy. What bullet weights are you talking about. As a 140 grain Crudy has away better BC then a 130grain 270.

Do some of your own research. I'm not cherry picking the worst or best loads for somebody. There are 100s of loadings for the 45-70, and quite a good number seem to be about 18" at 300. Some worse, some better. Easily shootable.

Same answer on the 270 and the high number of bullets available. Look @130s, 140s, and 150s.

Please re-read my postings. Obviously the 140 Creed has a higher BC. That is why the 270 has DOUBLE the WIND DRIFT (but less drop).


OTHER people are laboring under the delusion that massive speed converts abysmal BC into something more than still bad BC.

 

[375Ruger416]

To put some numbers to it, here is some info comparing 6.5 CM and PRC using the same bullets. Velocity makes less of a difference on wind drift than you’d expect, not nothing, but surprisingly little. at 500 yards, it’s only a 1.2 inch difference in wind deflection.

From the big game hunting blog.

‘At 1,000 yards, the 6.5 Creedmoor has about 9″ (~15%) more wind drift than the 6.5 PRC. That’s not nothing, but it’s not a gigantic difference either.

That’s not really surprising though. After all, the two cartridges are using the exact same bullet. So, the difference here is entirely due to the 260fps advantage in muzzle velocity the 6.5 PRC has.‘

 

[Rule 303]

Do some of your own research. I'm not cherry picking the worst or best loads for somebody. There are 100s of loadings for the 45-70, and quite a good number seem to be about 18" at 300. Some worse, some better. Easily shootable.

Same answer on the 270 and the high number of bullets available. Look @130s, 140s, and 150s.

Please re-read my postings. Obviously the 140 Creed has a higher BC. That is why the 270 has DOUBLE the WIND DRIFT (but less drop).


OTHER people are laboring under the delusion that massive speed converts abysmal BC into something more than still bad BC.

What I was asking is what bullet weights did You use in the 270/6.5 comparison. Like did you do an apples to apples comparison or and apples and orange comparison.

Re the 45-70 you made a cover all statement. My reply was from my experience but no light loads.

Yep, no amount of speed will change SD

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

People have been trying to flatten the trajectory curve since the first atlatl dart was chucked at some prehistoric antelope, and then talked about. So now you know the answer... No, we can't.

 

[Flewis]

Do some of your own research. I'm not cherry picking the worst or best loads for somebody. There are 100s of loadings for the 45-70, and quite a good number seem to be about 18" at 300. Some worse, some better. Easily shootable.

Same answer on the 270 and the high number of bullets available. Look @130s, 140s, and 150s.

Please re-read my postings. Obviously the 140 Creed has a higher BC. That is why the 270 has DOUBLE the WIND DRIFT (but less drop).


OTHER people are laboring under the delusion that massive speed converts abysmal BC into something more than still bad BC.

I don’t know who would think that. I do that more velocity has less drop and wind drift. I know you don’t agree but you do agree that less flight time means less drift and less drop. You get that with more velocity..

 

[akrifleman]

What I was asking is what bullet weights did You use in the 270/6.5 comparison. Like did you do an apples to apples comparison or and apples and orange comparison.

Re the 45-70 you made a cover all statement. My reply was from my experience but no light loads.

Yep, no amount of speed will change SD

Apples to apples is always really difficult, particularly with the enormous range of loadings, particularly with the 270. Somebody will always argue that selecting 140s for both isn't fair, and the next guy will argue the 130 vs the 140 isn't fair. I just looked at common loadings.

Yes, the 45-70 was absolutely a cover all statement. I tend to avoid absolutes, because there are exceptions to every rule, and most people who use absolutes are absolutely incorrect ;-)

 

[akrifleman]

I don’t know who would think that. I do that more velocity has less drop and wind drift. I know you don’t agree but you do agree that less flight time means less drift and less drop. You get that with more velocity..

That isn't what I said. Physics are finite when it comes to external ballistics. Initial Velocity at the muzzle (Vi) is not deterministic to the Final Velocity (Vf). The deceleration based on mass and drag function of the bullet returns the Vf.

So if at 500 yds the initial muzzle velocity is 200 fps faster, but a high drag function returns lower velocity at 500 yds than a low drag function retaining velocity, then the TOF can be exactly the same, and the wind drift will be MUCH less for the low drag function.

So, what your saying is ONLY true for ONE single bullet. If your comparing two bullets of the exact same weight, with IDENTICAL Vi, then the low drag function will return a shorter TOF, less drift, and more retained velocity (less drop), then the high drag function bullet. Velocity doesn't provide... reducing drag provides.