Bullets For Buffalo

[John Wasmuth]

John,

The 45-70 will run a 295gr. CEB Raptor and a 325gr CEB SOLID at around 2,500fps. That is as close to the 458 WM , as close as "damn" is to swearin'. (R7 or 4198)

The 45-90 is an easy re-chamber and has a more powder room. ( low cost chamber job.)
Or rechamber to 45-110. (Quigley down under)

The 45-70 will outperform the buffalo hunters sweetheart cartridge, the 450-400NE.

Most people can't believe this stuff because;
1. The steadfast concept that a 45-70 is lame old cowboy cartridge stops folks from thinking/testing/proving.
2. Very few people have experimented with modern unconventional bullets on cape buffalo and have seen how well they work. Most buffalo hunters are still using round nose bullets for solids on buffalo and they wonder why the bullet does not penetrate in a straight line.

The 450 NE 3 1/4 would be fine, just keep your pressure below about 40,000, I think.
I run very low pressures in my H&R single shot big bore. That is why VV N500 series powder and R17 powder is recommended. They have a bit "friendlier" pressure curve that some other powders.


Excellent .458 Solid bullets are CEB, NorthFork (from Sweden now), Peregrine BushMaster, GS Custom Solid Bullet. (I think that I missed some.)
Excellent expanding bullet is CEB Raptor, NorthFORK, Swift, and Barns Mono-metal.
The GSC expanding bullet has a good reputation in 375 and bigger.

Hopefully I am not being too preachy. I get excited talking about it. Brian

Thanks!

 

[Red Leg]

I posted the Loads from ammo guide for the 45-70. Like you say "no magic." No max loads like for the Ruger # 1.
Do you know why seasoned buffalo hunters use a solid first and why they want their clients to use a soft first?
What cartridge and bullet do you hunt buffalo with? Thanks, Brian

Brian I know quite a few “seasoned buffalo hunters“ and quite a few PH’s. These days, virtually all of those hunters use a magazine full or two barrels loaded with a quality SP. At least half of the PH’s do as well. In areas where it is possible to stumble upon an unhappy elephant, they will have solids loaded. But, that is because of the elephant, not the buffalo.

I have not used the NF solid, but I have a good bit of experience with the Woodleigh Hydro on bear and African game - though I have not taken a buffalo with one (and won’t). It would be my preferred elephant round were I to hunt one and has proven ideal for the tiny 10. I much prefer an A Frame or TSX of appropriate weight (and SD) for everything in between. The hydro of course kills, but like any solid, not very quickly. But as I noted, it makes a great oribi option in .375.

All of which is beside the point with respect to what you want to use. I just think bullets with poor SD for caliber or dependent upon some form of fragmentation would be a poor place for most hunters to begin their buffalo hunting experience.

 

[Brian]

Brian I know quite a few “seasoned buffalo hunters“ and quite a few PH’s. These days, virtually all of those hunters use a magazine full or two barrels loaded with a quality SP. At least half of the PH’s do as well. In areas where it is possible to stumble upon an unhappy elephant, they will have solids loaded. But, that is because of the elephant, not the buffalo.

I have not used the NF solid, but I have a good bit of experience with the Woodleigh Hydro on bear and African game - though I have not taken a buffalo with one (and won’t). It would be my preferred elephant round were I to hunt one and has proven ideal for the tiny 10. I much prefer an A Frame or TSX of appropriate weight (and SD) for everything in between. The hydro of course kills, but like any solid, not very quickly. But as I noted, it makes a great oribi option in .375.

All of which is beside the point with respect to what you want to use. I just think bullets with poor SD for caliber or dependent upon some form of fragmentation would be a poor place for most hunters to begin their buffalo hunting experience.

Red Leg,
Sorry, but I disagree with some of your points. Most of my comment are a result of my personal experience. I changed most of my opinions from conventional wisdom when the facts presented themselves in the field, as I tried different bullets. This is my summary.
-Good solids like NF and CEB, kill cape buffalo very well with good bullet placement. They run for 30 yds usually.
-Shit solids like Hornady round nose can be slow killers even in 500NE. ( Collapsed wound channel, tumbling, changing course).
-SD is not a significant factor. The hunting world has got that wrong. SD is about external ballistics. (Muzzle to animal).
-CEB Raptors kill like hell! Sounds like you have never seen it. They just don't like going through brush.
-TSX and Swift are excellent expanding bullets. I used them on large plains game with a 375HH.

What cartridge/bullet to you hunt cape buffalo with? Tell me about your experience with it. Thanks, Brian

 

[Brian]

John,
Yes, the SBs receivers. The 45/ 70 is a great calibre for that rifle.
I will make a suggestion, like Captain Obvious. You can router/carve out a trough in the forend and fill it with 1/2 lb of epoxy ( or JB Weld) lead shot mix. It helps to hold the muzzle down during recoil and study during aiming.(No one but your hair dresser will know.)
You can add apiece of wood to the comb and shape the top of it to be parallel with the bore.
Bubba has spoken.

I made a typo. It should read "SB2 receivers" not SBs. Oops.

 

[IvW]

-SD is not a significant factor. The hunting world has got that wrong. SD is about external ballistics. (Muzzle to animal).

How.do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Brian]

How.do you come to that conclusion?

It's pretty common knowledge now. One good article is by Gerard of GSC. I will post it. The real question is how did the hunting come to think SD is so significant relative to Terminal ballistics. The bullet chances shape in the first few inches of penetration, Then other factors come into play. I will dig the article out. Gerard says it better than I can. Also, GS Custom bullets makes on of the best performing solid bullets in the world. The PH on my last hunt carried a mag full of them. He never got a chance to use them because I was knocking buffalo down down, DRT. with one bullet each, CEB Raptors. Chuckle.

 

[Brian]

It's pretty common knowledge now. One good article is by Gerard of GSC. I will post it. The real question is how did the hunting world come to think SD is so significant relative to Terminal ballistics. The bullet chances shape in the first few inches of penetration, Then other factors come into play. I will dig the article out. Gerard says it better than I can. Also, GS Custom bullets makes one of the best performing solid bullets in the world. The PH on my last hunt carried a mag full of them. He never got a chance to use them because I was knocking buffalo down down, DRT. with one bullet each, CEB Raptors. Chuckle.

Here it is. I cut and pasted it from GC Custom Bullets website. This guy has done a lifetime of R&D innovations on bullets, not just repeating the samo-samo. I have been to his factory in Port Elizabeth RSA.
I hope it is useful to all. Cheers, brian

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Sectional Density

 

[Brian]

Here it is. I cut and pasted it from GC Custom Bullets website. This guy has done a lifetime of R&D innovations on bullets, not just repeating the samo-samo. I have been to his factory in Port Elizabeth RSA.
I hope it is useful to all. Cheers, brian

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Sectional Density

Here is another one. I just googled "The Sectional Density Myth".

Sectional Density and Bullet Penetration | Shoot'n, Fish'n 'n' Hunt'n

 

[John Wasmuth]

Here is another one. I just googled "The Sectional Density Myth".

Sectional Density and Bullet Penetration | Shoot'n, Fish'n 'n' Hunt'n

Very interesting.thanks

 

[Red Leg]

Red Leg,
Sorry, but I disagree with some of your points. Most of my comment are a result of my personal experience. I changed most of my opinions from conventional wisdom when the facts presented themselves in the field, as I tried different bullets. This is my summary.
-Good solids like NF and CEB, kill cape buffalo very well with good bullet placement. They run for 30 yds usually.
-Shit solids like Hornady round nose can be slow killers even in 500NE. ( Collapsed wound channel, tumbling, changing course).
-SD is not a significant factor. The hunting world has got that wrong. SD is about external ballistics. (Muzzle to animal).
-CEB Raptors kill like hell! Sounds like you have never seen it. They just don't like going through brush.
-TSX and Swift are excellent expanding bullets. I used them on large plains game with a 375HH.

What cartridge/bullet to you hunt cape buffalo with? Tell me about your experience with it. Thanks, Brian

So I read those. Thank you.

I would agree that a poorly designed and constructed bullet can not depend upon SD to make up for those shortcomings. However - and it is a big however - a well constructed, controlled expansion bullet that doesn't tumble, fall apart, or deviate from course absolutely can. Two that do that with absolute reliability and with which I have hunted buffalo and a host of PG are the 300 gr TSX and Swift A Frame (my favorite). Those buffalo were shot under field conditions ranging from 25 yards quartering toward me inbound, to fifty and seventy yards in the Zambezi Delta, to one at seventy yards from islet to Islet in the Caprivi marshes. All were essentially one shot kills, though two were given insurance shots. None were classic 90-degree profile opportunities.

My only experience with a CEB raptor was a .308 cal fired by a friend from a 30-06 at a 160ish pound Carolina whitetail. We found him a day and a half later dead with an enormous crater in what remained of the left shoulder. I have had no interest in further experimentation.

As I noted above, a century and a half of bullet development has provided us the opportunity to use magnificent bullet designs that take full advantage of that vast accumulation of collective experience. I'll gladly rely on that rather than shrapnel.

 

[Brian]

So I read those. I would agree that a poorly designed and constructed bullet can not depend upon SD to make up for those shortcomings. However - and it is a big however - a well constructed, controlled expansion bullet that doesn't tumble, fall apart, or deviate from course absolutely can. Two that do that with absolute reliability and which I have hunted buffalo and a host of PG are the 300 gr TSX and Swift A Frame. Those buffalo were shot under field conditions ranging from 25 yards quartering toward me inbound, to fifty and seventy yards in the Zambezi Delta, to one at seventy yards from islet to Islet in the Caprivi marshes. All were essentially one shot kills, though two were given insurance shots. None were classic 90-degree profile opportunities.

My only experience with a CEB raptor was a .308 cal fired by a friend from a 30-06 at a 160ish pound Carolina whitetail. We found him a day and a half later dead with an enormous crater in what remained of the left shoulder. I have had no interest in further experimentation.

As I noted above, a century and a half of bullet development has provided us the opportunity to use magnificent bullet designs that take full advantage of the vast accumulation of experience. I'll gladly rely on that rather than shrapnel.

Yes the, Swift and TXS are awesome bullets.
That CEB sounds like it might have gone through some bush and broke up before it hit the Animal. They don't like going through bush.

 

[Brian]

So I read those. Thank you.

I would agree that a poorly designed and constructed bullet can not depend upon SD to make up for those shortcomings. However - and it is a big however - a well constructed, controlled expansion bullet that doesn't tumble, fall apart, or deviate from course absolutely can. Two that do that with absolute reliability and which I have hunted buffalo and a host of PG are the 300 gr TSX and Swift A Frame (my favorite). Those buffalo were shot under field conditions ranging from 25 yards quartering toward me inbound, to fifty and seventy yards in the Zambezi Delta, to one at seventy yards from islet to Islet in the Caprivi marshes. All were essentially one shot kills, though two were given insurance shots. None were classic 90-degree profile opportunities.

My only experience with a CEB raptor was a .308 cal fired by a friend from a 30-06 at a 160ish pound Carolina whitetail. We found him a day and a half later dead with an enormous crater in what remained of the left shoulder. I have had no interest in further experimentation.

As I noted above, a century and a half of bullet development has provided us the opportunity to use magnificent bullet designs that take full advantage of that vast accumulation of collective experience. I'll gladly rely on that rather than shrapnel.

PS. Until about 20 years ago when GSC and Barnes and Peregrine came out with the monolith bullet with driving bands there was very few innovations in Cup and Core bullets. The new monolithic bulles are a real shift in design. B&M Rifles and Cartridges is an excellent resource site. But to each his own. Brian

 

[Brian]

Hello to all cape buffalo hunters,

Here is a great report by Michael458 that really opened my eyes a few years ago. Hope it us fun reading for you. Brian

Non Conventional Bullets

Non Conventional Bullets

www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com

 

[Brian]

Happy Independence Day to allay American friends !
Brian

 

[PeteG]

I posted the Loads from ammo guide for the 45-70. Like you say "no magic." No max loads like for the Ruger # 1.
Do you know why seasoned buffalo hunters use a solid first and why they want their clients to use a soft first?
What cartridge and bullet do you hunt buffalo with? Thanks, Brian

Seasoned buffalo hunters will use a soft first. Not a solid.
im not sure who told you that most will use a solid first but I can assure you that is 100% incorrect.
every ph that I know and have spoken to will recommend against a solid on the first shot and if their client is using a well constructed soft such as an a frame or similar, they will ask for softs as a second shot as well.

 

[spike.t]

Back in 1989 when first hunted buffalo using BELL ammunition loaded with trophy bonded bearclaw and sledgehammers, as was I think about only ammunition being loaded for the 416 rigby then, it was a bearclaw on top of sledgehammers for first shot....only time I used solids was in my 9.3x74r double using RWS steel jacket solids..buff was alone and first shot frontal and 2nd in the side as it turned...went about 20 yards...but as Pete said just about everyone i know would ask you to use a good soft for at least your first shot...

 

[Brian]

Pete, spike.t.
Yes I have heard that a lot. Thanks for your posts. Brian

 

[Brian]

Pete, spike.t.
Yes I have heard that a lot. Thanks for your posts. Brian

PS. My bullets come "pre-expanded" (. 500 and .585 ) chuckle.
Swift bullets, which I like and use for large plains game, don't come in 577NE.
I don't use common solid bullets. I use CEB solids. For softs, I use CEB Raptors. Last 4 buffalo with .500 Raptors were one shot, dead right there. Very unconventional bullets.
It works for me, but I agree with you, most of you like a standard cup and core soft first for buffalo and it works for you. Brian

 

[PeteG]

I don't use common solid bullets. I use CEB solids.

Even more reason not to use a solid first. Very bad choice of bullet for first shot on buffalo. Regardless of whether your bullets are .375 or .577 or above.
I sincerely hope no novice hunter reads this thread and gets the wrong idea on ammo/projectile choice

 

[spike.t]

PS. My bullets come "pre-expanded" (. 500 and .585 ) chuckle.
Swift bullets, which I like and use for large plains game, don't come in 577NE.
I don't use common solid bullets. I use CEB solids. For softs, I use CEB Raptors. Last 4 buffalo with .500 Raptors were one shot, dead right there. Very unconventional bullets.
It works for me, but I agree with you, most of you like a standard cup and core soft first for buffalo and it works for you. Brian

I hardly think A-frame..TBBC etc are standard cup and core soft bullets....