Bullets For Buffalo

[IvW]

still wonder why bullets where not tested under normal buffalo hunting conditions as opposed to 25 yards from a blind at undisturbed buffalo...I could make that shot 4 times in a row with my 7x57mm

 

[Brian]

Thanks, I’ll give it a try!

Please let me know how it goes.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Please let me know how it goes.

Will do

 

[Brian]

still wonder why bullets where not tested under normal buffalo hunting conditions as opposed to 25 yards from a blind at undisturbed buffalo...I could make that shot 4 times in a row with my 7x57mm

That would work, but I chose to do it my way. I wanted every shot to be exactly the same for comparison, placement, angle and distance. It was 50 yds.

I have killed 5 cape buffalo by the proper stalking method. I find it very satisfying to get close into a herd and pick out one animal. My first one was, 22 paces. We were right in the midst of a small herd. I used a 375HH with NorthFork Cup Point Solid.
You could make that shot 4X with your rifle? Good man. My grandmother could make it 5X with her long bow while knitting a sweater. ( Just trying to be funny, no offence.)
Cheers, Brian

 

[Badboymelvin]

Badboy,
how far do you shoot with it (550 gn) ?
Have you measured the speed (2080) yourself ?
The case volume is already very low.
I get 2150 fps with a 480 gn bullet with an upper center charge.

Regards from the upper side of the world.
Foxi

Hi Foxi
Yes I measured it myself - I don’t take the word of reloading manuals!
I use a 18” drop tube and the 550gn is snug on the powder and I had a variation of only 4 fps.
I limit my shots to 200m.
Zeroed 3” at 100m it drops 5” at 200m which isn’t too bad for big game. After 200m however she starts dropping pretty quick!
Russ

 

[Brian]

John, I just remembered there is a post here on AH that contains a link to a buffalo cow hunting video showing the H&R 577NE rifle. with cast bullets. You have to scroll down a ways to get it. It's an old posting you have probably seen it. Brian

A Cape Buffalo Cow Hunting Story

This story is published in the current issue of The African Hunting Gazette. South Africa: Year 2016 NEVER MIND THE BULL For the female of the species is more deadly than the male. Kipling, 1911 By Brian Gallup I was standing on the target range at Buffalo Land Safaris in the...

www.africahunting.com

 

[John Wasmuth]

Please let me know how it goes.

Will do

John,
Thanks for the question. I like to talk about this rifle. It is a converted H&R , NEF 10 ga. shot gun with custom big bore barrels. 577NE and 50-110 Winchester with custom chamber, necked down to shoot the true .500 cal bullets as 500 S&W. A gunsmith did the barrel conversions and I did the stock work. The rattle-can paint job is my final "bubba" touch. It weighs 12 lbs. without the scope. It is safe to say that it is probably the cheapest 577NE that ever hunted Africa. ( chuckle.)

It is fine to shoot actually, with it's weight and straight stock, and it's very satisfying, the way it kills buffalo with the bullets I use. I have killed 7 cape buffalo with it, three with 700 gr cast bullets, all one shot kills at close range. With the 700 gr, 577NE Peregrine Bushmaster bullet and the 410gr CEB Raptors each buffalo was dead-right-there.
The CEB Raptor bullets defy conventional theory/concepts on terminal performance.

ive often considered if it’s possible to rechamber the H and R SB2 .45/70 to .450 NE 3 1/4? If it can handle what you are shooting it’d be a piece of cake .

John, I just remembered there is a post here on AH that contains a link to a buffalo cow hunting video showing the H&R 577NE rifle. with cast bullets. You have to scroll down a ways to get it. It's an old posting you have probably seen it. Brian

A Cape Buffalo Cow Hunting Story

This story is published in the current issue of The African Hunting Gazette. South Africa: Year 2016 NEVER MIND THE BULL For the female of the species is more deadly than the male. Kipling, 1911 By Brian Gallup I was standing on the target range at Buffalo Land Safaris in the...

www.africahunting.com

thanks!

 

[Red Leg]

Will do

ive often considered if it’s possible to rechamber the H and R SB2 .45/70 to .450 NE 3 1/4? If it can handle what you are shooting it’d be a piece of cake .

thanks!

I just don't get the point.

 

[Brian]

John,

The 45-70 will run a 295gr. CEB Raptor and a 325gr CEB SOLID at around 2,500fps. That is as close to the 458 WM , as close as "damn" is to swearin'. (R7 or 4198)

The 45-90 is an easy re-chamber and has a more powder room. ( low cost chamber job.)
Or rechamber to 45-110. (Quigley down under)

The 45-70 will outperform the buffalo hunters sweetheart cartridge, the 450-400NE.

Most people can't believe this stuff because;
1. The steadfast concept that a 45-70 is lame old cowboy cartridge stops folks from thinking/testing/proving.
2. Very few people have experimented with modern unconventional bullets on cape buffalo and have seen how well they work. Most buffalo hunters are still using round nose bullets for solids on buffalo and they wonder why the bullet does not penetrate in a straight line.

The 450 NE 3 1/4 would be fine, just keep your pressure below about 40,000, I think.
I run very low pressures in my H&R single shot big bore. That is why VV N500 series powder and R17 powder is recommended. They have a bit "friendlier" pressure curve that some other powders.


Excellent .458 Solid bullets are CEB, NorthFork (from Sweden now), Peregrine BushMaster, GS Custom Solid Bullet. (I think that I missed some.)
Excellent expanding bullet is CEB Raptor, NorthFORK, Swift, and Barns Mono-metal.
The GSC expanding bullet has a good reputation in 375 and bigger.

Hopefully I am not being too preachy. I get excited talking about it. Brian

 

[Brian]

Red Leg, If I am getting you right, I have to agree with you. I don't think there is any point. Maybe there isn't supposed to be. It's just a hobby/life style thing to me.
I am intrigued by innovations coming from experimentations. That's all it is to me.
I was the kid who never had a chemistry set. Brian

PS. I do like hunting with a single shot. It increases the intensity a bit for me. brian

 

[Red Leg]

Red Leg, If I am getting you right, I have to agree with you. I don't think there is any point. Maybe there isn't supposed to be. It's just a hobby/life style thing to me.
I am intrigued by innovations coming from experimentations. That's all it is to me.
I was the kid who never had a chemistry set. Brian

PS. I do like hunting with a single shot. It increases the intensity a bit for me. brian

Can never argue with hunting with a single shot - my newest favorite deer rifle is an elegant 7x65R by Bailey Bradshaw. It is long lean and perfectly balanced for its purpose.

I also don't have an issue with any experienced rifleman and hunter like yourself poking holes in buffalo with whatever you are confident will work. You are experienced enough to understand the ethical and financial issues if your PH is gored or the animal is lost due to whatever reason.

My concern are the new African hunters who have never seen a buffalo outside the pages of Sports Afield. It is all well and good to believe that a 45/70 is just as good as - pick your caliber. My concern is that the DG hunter's first responsibility - putting enough bullet in exactly the right place can get lost in all of the believing and hoping that inside his H&R or Marlin beats the heart of Rigby in a proven caliber. I preach long and hard that on a first bull, a hunter needs to use a DG rifle and telescopic sight that most closely resembles his trusty deer rifle. Normally. usually, most of the time that description is best met by a scoped .375.

Finally, my buffalo seem to never offer perfect presentations. I would never use a 295-325 gr bullet - regardless of its shape or mechanical attributes - in 45 caliber on a bull. I am glad that you believe that CEB has overcome 150 years of practical bullet development and that you have proven it to your satisfaction. I just hope few first time DG hunters embrace it.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I’m not following how on earth a 45-70 outperforms a 450-400. Sure, one can load a 45-70 to the bejeezus and get velocities on the order of a 120-year old Cordite load but load a larger cartridge to the same chamber pressures and it’s going to give you higher velocity (and more recoil). It’s apples and oranges.
That’s not to say it won’t work. Just saying there’s no magic.
Regards the soft vs solid, I’m not going to talk about any specifics, but hell will freeze over before there is a solid in my magazine next time I hunt buffalo.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I’ve handle enough H&R single shots that were “off face” to keep me from owning one, let alone re barreling one.
The 12 gauge turkey gun was so bad you could fit a dime between the barrel and breach face when closed.

 

[Brian]

I’m not following how on earth a 45-70 outperforms a 450-400. Sure, one can load a 45-70 to the bejeezus and get velocities on the order of a 120-year old Cordite load but load a larger cartridge to the same chamber pressures and it’s going to give you higher velocity (and more recoil). It’s apples and oranges.
That’s not to say it won’t work. Just saying there’s no magic.
Regards the soft vs solid, I’m not going to talk about any specifics, but hell will freeze over before there is a solid in my magazine next time I hunt buffalo.

Thanks for your post. Interesting. Brian

 

[Brian]

I’ve handle enough H&R single shots that were “off face” to keep me from owning one, let alone re barreling one.
The 12 gauge turkey gun was so bad you could fit a dime between the barrel and breach face when closed.

Thanks, Interesting. Brian

 

[Brian]

Can never argue with hunting with a single shot - my newest favorite deer rifle is an elegant 7x65R by Bailey Bradshaw. It is long lean and perfectly balanced for its purpose.

I also don't have an issue with any experienced rifleman and hunter like yourself poking holes in buffalo with whatever you are confident will work. You are experienced enough to understand the ethical and financial issues if your PH is gored or the animal is lost due to whatever reason.

My concern are the new African hunters who have never seen a buffalo outside the pages of Sports Afield. It is all well and good to believe that a 45/70 is just as good as - pick your caliber. My concern is that the DG hunter's first responsibility - putting enough bullet in exactly the right place can get lost in all of the believing and hoping that inside his H&R or Marlin beats the heart of Rigby in a proven caliber. I preach long and hard that on a first bull, a hunter needs to use a DG rifle and telescopic sight that most closely resembles his trusty deer rifle. Normally. usually, most of the time that description is best met by a scoped .375.

Finally, my buffalo seem to never offer perfect presentations. I would never use a 295-325 gr bullet - regardless of its shape or mechanical attributes - in 45 caliber on a bull. I am glad that you believe that CEB has overcome 150 years of practical bullet development and that you have proven it to your satisfaction. I just hope few first time DG hunters embrace it.

I agree. With my first two buffalo I followed conventional thinking and I used a 375HH Winchester model 70 NF with NF cup points (semi expanding) which at the time were pretty conventional The very experienced PH said to use a solid on the first shot and I almost disobeyed him and snuck a soft into the breach, because that's what I read was the best first bullet.
One of the reasons for not using a solid first it to avoid having the bullet pass through and hitting another buffalo in the group.
Yes, most people use a soft first. I like a soft first if it is a CEB Raptor. The blades break off and the core continues through the meat and bone like a solid. However, with a well designed solid I am more confident that it has a good chance of not deflecting on it's way to the heart, no matter what presentation the buffalo offers. Just my thing. I know that I am in the minority on this one.

 

[Brian]

I’ve handle enough H&R single shots that were “off face” to keep me from owning one, let alone re barreling one.
The 12 gauge turkey gun was so bad you could fit a dime between the barrel and breach face when closed.

The SB1 is much weaker than the SB2 model. We only use the SB2 model for this stuff.
Never a problem.

 

[Brian]

Can never argue with hunting with a single shot - my newest favorite deer rifle is an elegant 7x65R by Bailey Bradshaw. It is long lean and perfectly balanced for its purpose.

I also don't have an issue with any experienced rifleman and hunter like yourself poking holes in buffalo with whatever you are confident will work. You are experienced enough to understand the ethical and financial issues if your PH is gored or the animal is lost due to whatever reason.

My concern are the new African hunters who have never seen a buffalo outside the pages of Sports Afield. It is all well and good to believe that a 45/70 is just as good as - pick your caliber. My concern is that the DG hunter's first responsibility - putting enough bullet in exactly the right place can get lost in all of the believing and hoping that inside his H&R or Marlin beats the heart of Rigby in a proven caliber. I preach long and hard that on a first bull, a hunter needs to use a DG rifle and telescopic sight that most closely resembles his trusty deer rifle. Normally. usually, most of the time that description is best met by a scoped .375.

Finally, my buffalo seem to never offer perfect presentations. I would never use a 295-325 gr bullet - regardless of its shape or mechanical attributes - in 45 caliber on a bull. I am glad that you believe that CEB has overcome 150 years of practical bullet development and that you have proven it to your satisfaction. I just hope few first time DG hunters embrace it.

That Bailey Bradshaw sounds really nice. The 7x65R is cool!

 

[Brian]

I’m not following how on earth a 45-70 outperforms a 450-400. Sure, one can load a 45-70 to the bejeezus and get velocities on the order of a 120-year old Cordite load but load a larger cartridge to the same chamber pressures and it’s going to give you higher velocity (and more recoil). It’s apples and oranges.
That’s not to say it won’t work. Just saying there’s no magic.
Regards the soft vs solid, I’m not going to talk about any specifics, but hell will freeze over before there is a solid in my magazine next time I hunt buffalo.

I posted the Loads from ammo guide for the 45-70. Like you say "no magic." No max loads like for the Ruger # 1.
Do you know why seasoned buffalo hunters use a solid first and why they want their clients to use a soft first?
What cartridge and bullet do you hunt buffalo with? Thanks, Brian

 

[Wyatt Smith]

The SB1 is much weaker than the SB2 model. We only use the SB2 model for this stuff.
Never a problem.

Good to know.