Big Bore Addiction Group

[Warbird782]

OK big bore addiction group. Why is there a stock difference between the CZ 550 American Safari and the 550 Safari? I see the American stock is straight. Which would be better with a scope?

 

[matt85]

both the 505 Gibbs and the 500 Jeffery are pretty much equal when it comes to performance (if a hand loader). both cartridges also suffer from feeding issues, the gibbs doesnt like to stay in magazines that arent custom tailored for it and the Jeffery doesnt like to feed without a carefully tuned action. both with feed 100% if you spend the needed money to get a well built rifle.

OK big bore addiction group. Why is there a stock difference between the CZ 550 American Safari and the 550 Safari? I see the American stock is straight. Which would be better with a scope?

the strait stock on the American is ideal in my opinion.

-matt

 

[matt85]

the 458 Lott is an outstanding cartridge in my opinion! a 500gr .458" bullet at 2300fps from a modified 375 H&H case is a winning combination. its economic and is considered more then suitable for any game on the planet. if 2300fps is too much for you or you simply want to plink with lighter loads (not my style) you can load it down to 2150fps and you still have a cartridge with plenty of power for any game.

-matt

 

[brushmore]

OK big bore addiction group. Why is there a stock difference between the CZ 550 American Safari and the 550 Safari? I see the American stock is straight. Which would be better with a scope?

One is the "American" style of stock and the other is more of a European. Some people feel that the American style stock is easier to deal with in regards to recoil. I think this mostly comes down to personal preference.

 

[Velo Dog]

Oh well...I hear you...what about the .500 Jeffery then, feeding vise..?

The .458 Lott is going to be your huckleberry.
The existing barrel is retained but re chambered.
If it needs action modification (underline "if") there will be less of it than the Gibbs or the Jeffery cartridges would require to function reliably.
If it already feeds reliably with the Winchester cartridge, there is at least some hope that it will do so with the Lott and therefore no extra gun smithing.
Likely it will not need any follower reshaping at all for the Lott but with either of the two .50 cartridges, you can be fairly certain that it will need follower reshaping, along with other work/hand filing on the action rails.

 

[matt85]

im with Velo Dog here, if youre on a tight budget then the 458 Lott is the best choice.

both the 505 Gibbs and the 500 Jeffery are outstanding cartridges but they require a fair bit of skilled gunsmithing ($$) to be reliable feeders. expect to spend no less then $3000 on a reliable Gibbs/Jeffery and that's only if you wait for a good deal to come along (cheap used CZ + skilled gunsmith). a new rifle in Gibbs/Jeffery that feeds reliably will run you $6500+ and tends to be a custom affair.

-matt

 

[Velo Dog]

OK big bore addiction group. Why is there a stock difference between the CZ 550 American Safari and the 550 Safari? I see the American stock is straight. Which would be better with a scope?

Either of them work well with a scope for me.

 

[Pondoro]

You people talk a lot of sense to me, a .458 Lott it will be.

 

[matt85]

You people talk a lot of sense to me, a .458 Lott it will be.

i dont get accused of that very often!

-matt

 

[matt85]

i took my friends 585 HE to the range today and tried 3 different loads.

- 750gr Barnes TSX over 140gr of IMR 4350
- 750gr Barnes TSX over 140gr of RL 15
- 750gr Woodleigh SP over 140gr of RL 15

recoil on the first cartridge was mild and i would guess the velocity was around 2150fps. the next cartridge stepped up the recoil fairly substantially with a velocity of around 2300fps but it was still lighter then the 600 NE in my opinion. the third load felt like it kicked a little harder but it was still very manageable from his heavy rifle.

the 750gr TSX ran into trouble when loaded up to higher then standard NE velocities. every single one of the hotter cartridges loaded with the TSX key holed at 50 yards. upon inspection of a recovered bullet, we found the bullet was not sufficiently engaging the rifling at high speed. Barnes uses reduced diameter bullets (.583") instead of correct diameter so we wont be using the TSX any more in his rifle.

one video was taken but it wasnt by me. its not exactly the most fun to watch as the rifle doesnt buck or point itself skyward when shot. his rifle weighs 17 pounds and most of the weight is in the muzzle. the most notable detail of firing the gun is the incredible muzzle report which can be heard from a great distance.

-matt

 

[Wouter Roets]

Hi Matt

Can you elaborate on the 585 HE please? What parent case is used as basis? I only pick up a 585 African Express and 585 Nyati 2.8" in QL in this caliber. It seems that the 585 Nyati uses the 577 NE parent case according to the dimensions.

Regards
Wouter

 

[matt85]

the 585 Hubel Express is derived from a number of different cartridges with the 585 Nyati being one of the parents (if memory serves me right).

its a 3.27" belted case that looks like a scaled up 458 Lott. with a massive 212gr capacity this cartridge is a real monster with the ability to push a 750gr .585" bullet pretty much as fast as you want although the typical load is is 2050-2400fps (it has been tested up to 2800fps).

personally i plan to use the cartridge to duplicate the performance of the 577 NE in a bolt action rifle. i had hoped to use the 750gr Barnes but now im a bit wary about trusting them. ill do some more testing with the Barnes at 2050-2100fps but if i cant trust them then i will stick with the Woodleigh bullets.

-matt

 

[Wouter Roets]

Thank you Matt

So a 577NE case is used with a belt added. Who manufactures the brass? They probably beefed up the wall thickness to handle 60 000psi.

I was not aware that Barnes made a 750gr TSX in 585. I see that there is both a .583 and .585 Solid available though. Funny that is not the case with the TSX. Flame cutting also becomes an issue with undersized bullets.

Should be quite a handful in the 2400ft/sec arena. I took my 505 Gibbs up to 2500ft/sec and it was not a pleasure at all from the bench.

Regards
Wouter

 

[matt85]

both the TSX and the solid are .583". I don't see any signs of flame cutting on the bullet that was recovered but its clear the rifling isn't getting a proper bite. im guessing the bullet is wide enough to prevent blow by but not wide enough for the rifling to put a spin on the bullet at high velocity. my bet is that if I drop the velocity to standard NE levels then the bullet will probably work "ok". I still think it was a poor decision by Barnes to make these bullets so undersized. I get they do it to reduce pressure levels so they can be safely fired from old 577 NE rifles but simply changing the band configuration would have solved that.

edit: brass is made by Bertram.

-matt

 

[Wouter Roets]

Matt

What is the twist of the barrel? Is it not rather the longer length of the mono bullet that causes the bullets to tumble because of under stabilization due to a too the twist not being sufficient for the length?

Regards
Wouter

 

[matt85]

no, i have a recovered bullet and can confirm the rifling is not biting into the bullet.

-matt

 

[Wouter Roets]

Matt

Now that is interesting to say the least! First time I've heard of that. Thanks for sharing.

Regards
Wouter

 

[Wouter Roets]

 

[matt85]

here is a picture of the Barnes .583" 750gr bullet:


take note of the lack of engraving. you can see some faint markings as the base but they aren't deep enough to even catch your fingernail on.

I should also mention the bullet did not open up because it was shot "long ways" into a log and wood will not open a TSX. this is very common with the TSX if shot into materials like thick mud, clay, and wood.

-matt

 

[Wouter Roets]

Matt

I see what you meant. There is absolutely no markings on the beginning of the shaft or middle. Extraordinary to say the least! Have you measured the bullets circumference by any chance?

Regards
Wouter