Best .45 ACP round for black bear protection

[Doug Hamilton]

@calling4life - loved the video but what “animal” attack is that preparing for - a “sparrow”?

I think the next time I have to face a pigeon in full frontal charge mode I will remember this video.

 

[schwerpunkt88]

I always wonder, what kind of bears are better?

 

[Jack Stevens]

Here's a quick watch, this shows you how to practice for defense against an animal.

In Alaska, they practice the “Bear Attack Drill,” set up like so:

As it was explained on another forum:

Setup the Bear Drill:

Set up four to six targets in a staggered pattern, placing the farthest 50 feet downrange and the closest at 5 feet. Also, alter the height at which you position the targets, placing them between 2 ½ to 4 ½ feet above the ground.

You can use IPSC targets or cut out 8-inch circles of cardboard. In either case, put a 2 ½-inch black spot in the center of the target. (This spot represents the bear’s nose, a useful aiming point.)

How to Shoot The Drill:

Move your eyes ahead of your gun and learn to time your shot so the trigger breaks the moment your front sight settles on the black dot. Don’t start and stop the gun in a jerking motion - keep it moving smoothly.

Use a shot timer and start with your firearm at the low ready. Set the timer for 3 seconds. At the sound of the buzzer, bring the gun up to the farthest target and get a sight picture (front sight on black dot).

Whether you pull the trigger is up to you, but either way, quickly transition to the next target and then the next. Keep the gun moving in a smooth back-and-forth motion. Before the 3 seconds are up, you should have taken a sight picture on each target, finishing on the closest one.

One clean hit is better than a bunch of misses, and the drill can be shot with a rifle or a handgun. But if you’re using a handgun, you want to try to get at least THREE good hits in that time frame - the more, the better.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I always wonder, what kind of bears are better?

Gummis?

 

[Neophyte]

For black bear I’d use Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman.45 ACP +P.
It’ll go through seven meth heads and a station wagon full of nuns so I wouldn’t carry it in town. You’ll want a heavier recoil spring too.

 

[Safari Dave]

I have a friend who had to put one down last year that was coming for him. He was able to do it with a .22 pistol!

 

[Jack Stevens]

I have a friend who had to put one down last year that was coming for him. He was able to do it with a .22 pistol!

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I have a friend who had to put one down last year that was coming for him. He was able to do it with a .22 pistol!

I suppose it's possible that someone had a bear that "was coming for him" and he killed it with a .22 pistol. I would need a lot more details to believe it though.

 

[mgstucson]

Anything can happen once. I have heard of Native Americans who kill bears with 22's, but they stalk up on them hibernating and shoot them in the eye. Even what the guy claims to have done is one more time than I or most of the posters on this thread have shot a bear with a handgun, or even shot at a bear with a handgun. When something is really important, either personally or professionally, and I need to know it, I have always sought out the most experienced person I can find to learn from.

There is a person who has handgun hunted bear, trapped and killed bear professionally for the forestry industry, and professionally guided dozens if not hundreds in hunting bears with handguns in the lower 48. He later professionally guided in AK, and now is a PH in Africa. He has personally killed hundreds, HUNDREDS, of bears with a handgun and seen almost that many killed by others using nearly every reasonable variety of handgun. He has seen them shot with 357, 40S&W, and 45ACP, but he does not recommend any of those calibers with any ammunition for hunting bears, much less stopping bears. They will kill, but a bear may kill your dogs or you while you are waiting for that to happen. A bear can attack, kill, and mame for minutes AFTER being shot through the heart. I have shot deer that jumped strsight up in the air and ran 50 yards after I shot them through both lungs and the heart. Hack recommends the 41mag or 10mm as the marginal starting point for handguns against bears. MUCH better are the 44mag, 454, 480 class of cartridges. He has hunted, guided, and followed up wounded bears lost by other hunters with a 7.5" 44mag SRH. He has also used a S&W 4" Mod. 29, but limited range of shots with the shorter barrel. He claims IMPACT velocity, not MUZZLE velocity, must well exceed 1000fps as a minimum. He says the ultra class is the S&W 500, 460, etc.. Contrary to popular wisdom (and he is personal friends with Randy Garret and has discussed the topic energetically with same), he does not recommend hardcast solids for bear hunting much less bear stopping. Again, they will kill, but take a long time to do it unless you take out the CNS. He recommends and used the 44mag class and up for bear protection on bears up to 500 pounds, not the really big bears, He does not recommend handguns for stopping the big bears, although it can be done with a CNS shot. He says if you can reliably hit a softball bouncing toward you at 30 MPH, then you might want to consider yourself ready to stop a big bear with a handgun. No professionals do with the big bears, although he did as a professional with black bears.

The reason he claims he did use a handgun to reliably stop black bears, and the reason he used heavy, expanding 44mag bullets, not solid hardcast is this. Evidently, when you shoot a black bear with a heavy expanding bullet moving more than 1000fps on impact, the bear with stop or spin, because of the stunning, hydrostatic shock of the impact, enabling you and/or others to get away in a defense only scenario, or better, follow up shots to kill the bear.

Personally, I carry a 4" S&W 500 with heavy hollowpoints at over 1500fps and/or a long gun. It is your hide, and your family, do what you are comfortable with to protect both.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Hack recommends the 41mag or 10mm as the marginal starting point for handguns against bears. MUCH better are the 44mag, 454, 480 class of cartridges. He has hunted, guided, and followed up wounded bears lost by other hunters with a 7.5" 44mag SRH. He has also used a S&W 4" Mod. 29, but limited range of shots with the shorter barrel. He claims IMPACT velocity, not MUZZLE velocity, must well exceed 1000fps as a minimum. He says the ultra class is the S&W 500, 460, etc.. Contrary to popular wisdom (and he is personal friends with Randy Garret and has discussed the topic energetically with same), he does not recommend hardcast solids for bear hunting much less bear stopping. Again, they will kill, but take a long time to do it unless you take out the CNS. He recommends and used the 44mag class and up for bear protection on bears up to 500 pounds, not the really big bears, He does not recommend handguns for stopping the big bears, although it can be done with a CNS shot. He says if you can reliably hit a softball bouncing toward you at 30 MPH, then you might want to consider yourself ready to stop a big bear with a handgun. No professionals do with the big bears, although he did as a professional with black bears.

The reason he claims he did use a handgun to reliably stop black bears, and the reason he used heavy, expanding 44mag bullets, not solid hardcast is this. Evidently, when you shoot a black bear with a heavy expanding bullet moving more than 1000fps on impact, the bear with stop or spin, because of the stunning, hydrostatic shock of the impact, enabling you and/or others to get away in a defense only scenario, or better, follow up shots to kill the bear.

Who is this "Hack" dude?

 

[Manwe]

If I chose to carry a 45 for bear defense, I would carry 230 grain flat nose solids or perhaps the 255 grain hardcast FN solids. Buffalo Bore and Doubletap make them both, Underwood makes the 255 grain, and Winchester makes the red45, a 230 grain. Other sources can also be found. FN solids give better straight line penetration than round nose ball along with a larger permanent wound channel.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

In Alaska, they practice the “Bear Attack Drill,” set up like so:

View attachment 618679

As it was explained on another forum:

Working for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in SW Alaska, we have to qualify annually to carry in the field for bear protection.

Our qualifying has two parts. The first is three stationary photo realistic targets of a brown bear. We have to get 3 in the vitals on the first and second, and then reload and do the same on the third bear, and we have a set time to do it. The second is the same photo realistic target, but it's on a sheet of plywood on a pully system. Someone runs with a cable to the side, causing it to "run" towards you. In addition, it's swinging back and forth to some degree. The goal is three shots in the kill area.

We can choose to qualify with a personal firearm if we wish. I've always done so with my government issued 870 shooting Brenneke Black Magic slugs.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Working for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in SW Alaska, we have to qualify annually to carry in the field for bear protection.

Our qualifying has two parts. The first is three stationary photo realistic targets of a brown bear. We have to get 3 in the vitals on the first and second, and then reload and do the same on the third bear, and we have a set time to do it. The second is the same photo realistic target, but it's on a sheet of plywood on a pully system. Someone runs with a cable to the side, causing it to "run" towards you. In addition, it's swinging back and forth to some degree. The goal is three shots in the kill area.

We can choose to qualify with a personal firearm if we wish. I've always done so with my government issued 870 shooting Brenneke Black Magic slugs.

1. What handgun/cartridge does the USFWS issue if not using your own weapon?
2. What distance(s) is the qualification course?
Thanks!

 

[Tundra Tiger]

1. What handgun/cartridge does the USFWS issue if not using your own weapon?
2. What distance(s) is the qualification course?
Thanks!

I'll confess... we do it once a year, and I am having a brain fart on the distances. The three stationary targets are staggered. Maybe 10,20, and 10 again? They're not super far. The moving target starts at maybe 20 and comes at you fairly fast and with a lot of movement.

Most folks do NOT use their personal firearms; it's just an option. What we are issued is a Remington Police Magnum 870, and I think maybe there are a choice of slugs? I always opt for the Brennekes. Our armorer is an Alaskan lifer and and hardcore hunter, to include brown bears. He has complete faith in them and that's good enough to me. I can get them to group well, and I have total faith in my 870 to go "bang"....

Edit: I don't know if the 870s are Service wide, Alaska wide, or just a Togiak thing. I'd guess it's probably at least an Alaska thing.

 

[HankBuck]

Anything can happen once. I have heard of Native Americans who kill bears with 22's, but they stalk up on them hibernating and shoot them in the eye. Even what the guy claims to have done is one more time than I or most of the posters on this thread have shot a bear with a handgun, or even shot at a bear with a handgun. When something is really important, either personally or professionally, and I need to know it, I have always sought out the most experienced person I can find to learn from.

There is a person who has handgun hunted bear, trapped and killed bear professionally for the forestry industry, and professionally guided dozens if not hundreds in hunting bears with handguns in the lower 48. He later professionally guided in AK, and now is a PH in Africa. He has personally killed hundreds, HUNDREDS, of bears with a handgun and seen almost that many killed by others using nearly every reasonable variety of handgun. He has seen them shot with 357, 40S&W, and 45ACP, but he does not recommend any of those calibers with any ammunition for hunting bears, much less stopping bears. They will kill, but a bear may kill your dogs or you while you are waiting for that to happen. A bear can attack, kill, and mame for minutes AFTER being shot through the heart. I have shot deer that jumped strsight up in the air and ran 50 yards after I shot them through both lungs and the heart. Hack recommends the 41mag or 10mm as the marginal starting point for handguns against bears. MUCH better are the 44mag, 454, 480 class of cartridges. He has hunted, guided, and followed up wounded bears lost by other hunters with a 7.5" 44mag SRH. He has also used a S&W 4" Mod. 29, but limited range of shots with the shorter barrel. He claims IMPACT velocity, not MUZZLE velocity, must well exceed 1000fps as a minimum. He says the ultra class is the S&W 500, 460, etc.. Contrary to popular wisdom (and he is personal friends with Randy Garret and has discussed the topic energetically with same), he does not recommend hardcast solids for bear hunting much less bear stopping. Again, they will kill, but take a long time to do it unless you take out the CNS. He recommends and used the 44mag class and up for bear protection on bears up to 500 pounds, not the really big bears, He does not recommend handguns for stopping the big bears, although it can be done with a CNS shot. He says if you can reliably hit a softball bouncing toward you at 30 MPH, then you might want to consider yourself ready to stop a big bear with a handgun. No professionals do with the big bears, although he did as a professional with black bears.

The reason he claims he did use a handgun to reliably stop black bears, and the reason he used heavy, expanding 44mag bullets, not solid hardcast is this. Evidently, when you shoot a black bear with a heavy expanding bullet moving more than 1000fps on impact, the bear with stop or spin, because of the stunning, hydrostatic shock of the impact, enabling you and/or others to get away in a defense only scenario, or better, follow up shots to kill the bear.

Personally, I carry a 4" S&W 500 with heavy hollowpoints at over 1500fps and/or a long gun. It is your hide, and your family, do what you are comfortable with to protect both.

@mgstucson - did this guy su[pposedly kill “hundreds of bears” Legally? If so, how? How many States did he hunt each year? Lastly, very different killing a bear while Hunitng vs in a true Self Defense situation.

 

[ChrisG]

A handgun is a hole puncher. The .44 mag is great if you can shoot it like Jerry Miculek. I would much rather run a deep penetrating 9mm 147 HC that I shoot accurately and fast, vs a .44 mag that I might get one shot off. I don't know where this myth comes from that black bear are heavy boned and heavily muscled. They are not. And a .451 hole through a major vessel or bone is, for all practical purposes, the same as a .430 hole through the same. Except with the .451 I can probably land more shots given the same amount of time to react.

... that is all assuming I am worried about a bear attacking me. The likelihood that I win big on scratch off tickets is better than having to use a last-ditch pea-shooter like a handgun for black bear defense.

 

[mgstucson]

@mgstucson - did this guy su[pposedly kill “hundreds of bears” Legally? If so, how? How many States did he hunt each year? Lastly, very different killing a bear while Hunitng vs in a true Self Defense situation.

This "Hack guy" is JJ Hack, and I briefly described his background in the post above. Sorry I was not clear about that. He trapped and killed bears on hundreds of thousands of acres of forest under special government permits hired by the corporations who owned or managed the forests in the Pacific NW. He also guided 30-40 hunters each spring and each fall in 2 different states, some of these had 2 bears per season limits. So 30-40 hunters could kill 60 to 80 bears in one fall or one spring. He often had to shoot bears off his dogs because hunters used marginal firearms, or were poor shots, etc. or had to shoot in defense of his life and/or the lives of his hunters. He also was called in to track and kill wounded bears that other hunters and/or guides lost before the bears encountered and harmed other people. The fact that killing a bear while hunting and true defense are different is PRECISELY the reason I posted and PRECISELY the reason his observations are so germane to this thread. He described one incident where he was called to find a kill a wounded bear lost by others where he was tracking on his hands and knees under a blackberry thicket (the other guys would not do that, neither would I) and encountered the bear at mere feet coming toward him, with only the SRH. This man knows more about killing bears in true defense situations than anyone else I have ever seen post on ANY forum ANYWHERE, including myself and anyone else who has posted in this thread.

Just trying to share info that may save someone's life by people who know what they are talking about, as opposed to people who have done or seen something done once, twice or a half dozen times, or not at all. Marketing speak by ammunition purveyors might get someone killed. Like I said, your life, your family, you listen to whomever you like.

 

[HankBuck]

This "Hack guy" is JJ Hack, and I briefly described his background in the post above. Sorry I was not clear about that. He trapped and killed bears on hundreds of thousands of acres of forest under special government permits hired by the corporations who owned or managed the forests in the Pacific NW. He also guided 30-40 hunters each spring and each fall in 2 different states, some of these had 2 bears per season limits. So 30-40 hunters could kill 60 to 80 bears in one fall or one spring. He often had to shoot bears off his dogs because hunters used marginal firearms, or were poor shots, etc. or had to shoot in defense of his life and/or the lives of his hunters. He also was called in to track and kill wounded bears that other hunters and/or guides lost before the bears encountered and harmed other people. The fact that killing a bear while hunting and true defense are different is PRECISELY the reason I posted and PRECISELY the reason his observations are so germane to this thread. He described one incident where he was called to find a kill a wounded bear lost by others where he was tracking on his hands and knees under a blackberry thicket (the other guys would not do that, neither would I) and encountered the bear at mere feet coming toward him, with only the SRH. This man knows more about killing bears in true defense situations than anyone else I have ever seen post on ANY forum ANYWHERE, including myself and anyone else who has posted in this thread.

Just trying to share info that may save someone's life by people who know what they are talking about, as opposed to people who have done or seen something done once, twice or a half dozen times, or not at all. Marketing speak by ammunition purveyors might get someone killed. Like I said, your life, your family, you listen to whomever you like.

@mgstucson - that guy “Hack” sounds like Davy Crockett & Daniel Boone rolled into one….a bear killing machine. My limited experiance and skinning 5 Black bears and one grizz - there is a lot of muscle and wicked claws on those animals regardless of size - I suspect even a 100 lb bear could easily kill a Man if it was motivated to do so. I also once wounded a black bear with a bow at sunset and decided NOT to track it at night (despite good blood sign) - returned in the morning w/a shotgun & buckshot, tracked into a marshy area and found it dead —- but that tracking was still more exciting then I wanted. I agree that people over think what handgun to use and any 9mm & up with good bullets can work —- as long as one can shoot it with reasonably accuracy “under stress”.

 

[mgstucson]

@mgstucson - that guy “Hack” sounds like Davy Crockett & Daniel Boone rolled into one….a bear killing machine. My limited experiance and skinning 5 Black bears and one grizz - there is a lot of muscle and wicked claws on those animals regardless of size - I suspect even a 100 lb bear could easily kill a Man if it was motivated to do so. I also once wounded a black bear with a bow at sunset and decided NOT to track it at night (despite good blood sign) - returned in the morning w/a shotgun & buckshot, tracked into a marshy area and found it dead —- but that tracking was still more exciting then I wanted. I agree that people over think what handgun to use and any 9mm & up with good bullets can work —- as long as one can shoot it with reasonably accuracy “under stress”.

6 bears. That is way more than most people. Hats off to you. I agree, a 100 pound bear could easily kill a human. Prevention is always better than confrontation with any of the magnificent dangerous game we may encounter while enjoying the bounties of nature. I have never hunted bear, but do hunt in bear country and arm myself appropriately. Hack is a professional hunter in Africa now, so maybe Davy Van Crockett. I don't think he fits the whole coon skin cap persona, but he has definitely killed all his share and part of several other's share when it comes to bears. I personally do not feel safe with anything less than a 44mag, 500S&W even better. A 9mm in the hand is better than anything left at home. I am just glad I have better options and never have to leave them at home. To each his own.

 

[HankBuck]

6 bears. That is way more than most people. Hats off to you. I agree, a 100 pound bear could easily kill a human. Prevention is always better than confrontation with any of the magnificent dangerous game we may encounter while enjoying the bounties of nature. I have never hunted bear, but do hunt in bear country and arm myself appropriately. Hack is a professional hunter in Africa now, so maybe Davy Van Crockett. I don't think he fits the whole coon skin cap persona, but he has definitely killed all his share and part of several other's share when it comes to bears. I personally do not feel safe with anything less than a 44mag, 500S&W even better. A 9mm in the hand is better than anything left at home. I am just glad I have better options and never have to leave them at home. To each his own.

@mgstucson - thanks but there’s not much skill required to hunt bear over bait - especially when a Guide has done all the real work: the scouting, stand site selection, & bating for you….just sit still & quiet and make a 50 yrd shot. Same goes for my only Griz hunt - pay your fee, practice with your rifle, get to Alaska, follow your Guides instructions , don’t “complain”, and make the shot. The only Bear that were really “earned” and took some effort - were the ones I took on my own and especially with my Bow - they were satisfying and a little exciting. I never carried a sidearm bear hunting except in Alaska and even then I decided to leave it on the snow mobile when we spotted a Bear and went after it on snowshoes (didn’t want to carry any extra weight). But when hunting bear with a bow, hiking or fishing in Griz country - agree with you that a sidearm is probably a good idea.