Best .45 ACP round for black bear protection

[mdwest]

meh.. if youre worried about having to shoot a bear at contact distances.. get a 10mm revolver..

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-610-10mm-revolver-4-barrel

 

[Wyatt Smith]

That’s kind of a neat gun, but I wonder why they put it on the N frame. In that case I would have a 44.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

'Live amongst some of the biggest black bear in the country. 'In the yard regularly. Never an issue (other than the occasional cranky male wanting something from the grill or other food item in my pack-even while sitting in treestands.) You'll never have to draw that .45 on a bear, but if you do, any expanding bullet will do the trick. They are not hard to kill, and certainly not with a head shot at close range. 'More likely you'll be using it on the Chinese Army. I think NATO says FMJ for that? I tell people to think of black bear as big racoons. Sure, they very occasionally kill some defenseless person, but it's quite the rarity. They are NOT brown/grizzly/polar bears that want to eat you! Blackies are largely herbivores.

View attachment 407426View attachment 407427

There are a lot of black bears where I live, even occasionally in my backyard. Like you I don't spend any time worrying about them, and it's easy to be a little careless. We really shouldn't however forget that in the last 100 years black bears have killed and eaten more humans than grizzlies have. Yeah, I know that black bears outnumber gruzzlies by maybe a thousand to one, and a lot more people come into contact with them, but still...

 

[F. Vaccaro]

meh.. if youre worried about having to shoot a bear at contact distances.. get a 10mm revolver..

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-610-10mm-revolver-4-barrel

Nope, nope, nope, a back country revolver will start .429 & 245gr as in 429421.

 

[Laniarius]

There is a lot of good research on this topic. Herrero's Bear Attacks book was last updated in 2003 but I don't think anything meaningful has changed, just more passage of time and more people around bears.

The vast majority of black bears are afraid of humans, but a small percentage of them don't have that fear and see us as prey. Predacious black bears stalk and kill humans in a very deliberate way. With these (extremely rare) fatalities, it's often suspected that it was the bear's first encounter with humans. Yes, the black bears that actually attack (and not just bluff charge, which leads to most of the legends about how Uncle Joe was darn near kilt) want to eat you. Much rarer that browns/grizzlies want to eat humans; with them it's usually more of a fear/aggression response, and they often just leave people after killing them.

It's possible that you could get attacked by a black bear, but it's way more likely that you'll get murdered by a human, or killed in a car accident, or even by lightning. About 1-3 people are killed by lightning every year in Canada. With black bears years go by without a single fatal attack.

Another thing that's clear from the documentation on bear attacks is that if you are attacked by a black bear, your only chance is to fight like hell. People have fought them off with axes, knives, etc. Herrero has an account of a young girl who was chased into her home by a black bear and she threw a pot of boiling water from the stove onto the bear, chasing it off. With browns/grizzlies, sometimes playing dead and curling up will help. Never with a predacious black bear. They want to eat you.

Just so you know I'm not a commie: if it were legal, I would carry a handgun in black bear country in Ontario (it's maybe theoretically legal to get a carry permit here, but from what I understand you can only get them in grizzly or polar bear areas in Canada). With the unjust laws we have in Canada, when backpacking in our parks I have to make do with a ka-bar knife. Realistically, I'll only ever use it for prepping kindling.

 

[C.W. Richter]

There are a lot of black bears where I live, even occasionally in my backyard. Like you I don't spend any time worrying about them, and it's easy to be a little careless. We really shouldn't however forget that in the last 100 years black bears have killed and eaten more humans than grizzlies have. Yeah, I know that black bears outnumber gruzzlies by maybe a thousand to one, and a lot more people come into contact with them, but still...

Has NEVER happened where i live. Nearby in ....Peoples' Republics of NY/NJ yes. LOL Probably divine intervention meets natural selection! But especially in AK where I guess they've adapted to easier prey (or the older ones.) To your comment, MOST of the population resides there. 'Not worried in the slightest about a black bear attack. They are very specific conditions, not involving guns/blood/food/no education or defense. They'll go away IF You threaten them in those unique circumstances! Brown or Polar-good luck if their dipstick is on low!

 

[BeeMaa]

meh.. if youre worried about having to shoot a bear at contact distances.. get a 10mm revolver..

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-610-10mm-revolver-4-barrel

Yeah, I hear you. But a G20 for half the price, more than double the ammo capacity and 16 oz lighter than the S&W is hard to resist.

Plus most people don't practice enough with speed reloads and doing so with moon clips can be difficult.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

There is a lot of good research on this topic. Herrero's Bear Attacks book was last updated in 2003 but I don't think anything meaningful has changed, just more passage of time and more people around bears.

The vast majority of black bears are afraid of humans, but a small percentage of them don't have that fear and see us as prey. Predacious black bears stalk and kill humans in a very deliberate way. With these (extremely rare) fatalities, it's often suspected that it was the bear's first encounter with humans. Yes, the black bears that actually attack (and not just bluff charge, which leads to most of the legends about how Uncle Joe was darn near kilt) want to eat you. Much rarer that browns/grizzlies want to eat humans; with them it's usually more of a fear/aggression response, and they often just leave people after killing them.

It's possible that you could get attacked by a black bear, but it's way more likely that you'll get murdered by a human, or killed in a car accident, or even by lightning. About 1-3 people are killed by lightning every year in Canada. With black bears years go by without a single fatal attack.

Another thing that's clear from the documentation on bear attacks is that if you are attacked by a black bear, your only chance is to fight like hell. People have fought them off with axes, knives, etc. Herrero has an account of a young girl who was chased into her home by a black bear and she threw a pot of boiling water from the stove onto the bear, chasing it off. With browns/grizzlies, sometimes playing dead and curling up will help. Never with a predacious black bear. They want to eat you.

Just so you know I'm not a commie: if it were legal, I would carry a handgun in black bear country in Ontario (it's maybe theoretically legal to get a carry permit here, but from what I understand you can only get them in grizzly or polar bear areas in Canada). With the unjust laws we have in Canada, when backpacking in our parks I have to make do with a ka-bar knife. Realistically, I'll only ever use it for prepping kindling.

Is bear spray legal in Canada? Personally, I've seen OC take too long to work on humans in corrections for it to be my first choice but hey if you can't carry a handgun it might be better than nothing.

I'm really sensitive to the stuff, so you would just have to threaten me with it and I would back off. Bears are probably smarter than the average felon, so maybe it would be good with just a little dose.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Yeah, I hear you. But a G20 for half the price, more than double the ammo capacity and 16 oz lighter than the S&W is hard to resist.

Plus most people don't practice enough with speed reloads and doing so with moon clips can be difficult.

I agree buy the Glock or the 629.

 

[BeeMaa]

Is bear spray legal in Canada? Personally, I've seen OC take too long to work on humans in corrections for it to be my first choice but hey if you can't carry a handgun it might be better than nothing.

Or carry a rifle if it's legal. Canucks have it tough with their gun laws...stay strong brothers.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Has NEVER happened where i live. Nearby in ....Peoples' Republics of NY/NJ yes. LOL Probably divine intervention meets natural selection! But especially in AK where I guess they've adapted to easier prey (or the older ones.) To your comment, MOST of the population resides there. 'Not worried in the slightest about a black bear attack. They are very specific conditions, not involving guns/blood/food/no education or defense. They'll go away IF You threaten them in those unique circumstances! Brown or Polar-good luck if their dipstick is on low!

I don't know of any fatal black bear attacks in Washington, but hey, just up the road in B.C. yeah.

 

[BeeMaa]

I agree buy the Glock or the 629.

I'm firmly on board with this chest rig from Gunfighters Inc. if I ever end up in serious bear country. Pick whatever handgun you shoot best and at least have it available if you don't have a rifle or shotgun available.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I don't know of any fatal black bear attacks in Washington, but hey, just up the road in B.C. yeah.

likely a Latitudinal thing (temp/light/hunger!) Is 10mm bear spray worth your life? If you answer no, Trump and prosperity is probably NOT in your future.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Yeah, I hear you. But a G20 for half the price, more than double the ammo capacity and 16 oz lighter than the S&W is hard to resist.

Plus most people don't practice enough with speed reloads and doing so with moon clips can be difficult.

Yes. I LOVE my G40 MOS 6"bbl. 10mm and G29 10mm. I put Trijicon night sights on both. Only need a G20 now. The 10mm is hard to beat with 220gr. hardcasts for four legged critters that might bite and 180gr. Sig V- Crowns for two legged fools that aspire to be somebody. LOL

 

[Laniarius]

Yes, bear spray is legal in Canada, even in our parks. I actually don't consider the risk of black bear attack to be high enough for me to want to carry bear spray.

Yes, if legal I'd carry a handgun, but bears would be a secondary consideration.

I have carried bear spray in Alaska as back up.

If I were in grizzly country in Canada, I would carry a short, handy rifle like my Ruger Guide Gun or a shotgun with slugs.

Our parks for camping and hiking up here generally have a ban on firearms except for limited hunting access in some of them.

When I'm in areas where there are black bears, it's usually either while backpacking in a park so I can't bring a long gun, or I'm somewhere else either hunting or target shooting. Fortunately, on public land in Canada ("Crown Land") that isn't a park, it's legal to have a long gun for target shooting or predator defense.

 

[HankBuck]

There is a lot of good research on this topic. Herrero's Bear Attacks book was last updated in 2003 but I don't think anything meaningful has changed, just more passage of time and more people around bears.

The vast majority of black bears are afraid of humans, but a small percentage of them don't have that fear and see us as prey. Predacious black bears stalk and kill humans in a very deliberate way. With these (extremely rare) fatalities, it's often suspected that it was the bear's first encounter with humans. Yes, the black bears that actually attack (and not just bluff charge, which leads to most of the legends about how Uncle Joe was darn near kilt) want to eat you. Much rarer that browns/grizzlies want to eat humans; with them it's usually more of a fear/aggression response, and they often just leave people after killing them.

It's possible that you could get attacked by a black bear, but it's way more likely that you'll get murdered by a human, or killed in a car accident, or even by lightning. About 1-3 people are killed by lightning every year in Canada. With black bears years go by without a single fatal attack.

Another thing that's clear from the documentation on bear attacks is that if you are attacked by a black bear, your only chance is to fight like hell. People have fought them off with axes, knives, etc. Herrero has an account of a young girl who was chased into her home by a black bear and she threw a pot of boiling water from the stove onto the bear, chasing it off. With browns/grizzlies, sometimes playing dead and curling up will help. Never with a predacious black bear. They want to eat you.

Just so you know I'm not a commie: if it were legal, I would carry a handgun in black bear country in Ontario (it's maybe theoretically legal to get a carry permit here, but from what I understand you can only get them in grizzly or polar bear areas in Canada). With the unjust laws we have in Canada, when backpacking in our parks I have to make do with a ka-bar knife. Realistically, I'll only ever use it for prepping kindling.

@Laniarius: FIRST, I always like those comparisons that compare perceived risk (of anything) to the risk from Lightning strike or Car accidents” and they are used for everything to belittle the real risk - from getting murdered in your home, die in plane crashes, killed by Bear etc…. What is never factored in —-How the risk “increases” when you are: Living in a home with abusive violent boyfriend, actually flying in a plane, or out in the woods in real bear country. Sit out in a boat, on a lake in Florida during a June thunder Storm and THEN calculate your “risk of a Lightning Strike”…the odds increase significantly.
SECOND, where did you get your Black Bear vs Grizzly kill ratio assumptions? Since Grizzly only exist in 3 Continental U.S. States its a joke of a comparrison unless you base it on a Griz vs Black BEAR-Per-Capita basis. What is the ratio of fatal Bear attacks in parts of Alaska where both Black & Grizzly Bears exist? (I don’t know but would be like to see some objective verified numbers from 1900 to Now.).
THIRD: I absolutely LOVE the story of the “little girl chased by Black bear, ran into her home, (didn’t close the door?) but happened to have a pot of “boiling water on the stove”??? - threw that on the Bear !!! Sounds like she had time to make dinner for that bear —-as a diversion !! But I enjoyed your post

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Laniarius: FIRST, I always like those comparisons that compare perceived risk (of anything) to the risk from Lightning strike or Car accidents” and they are used for everything to belittle the real risk - from getting murdered in your home, die in plane crashes, killed by Bear etc…. What is never factored in —-How the risk “increases” when you are: Living in a home with abusive violent boyfriend, actually flying in a plane, or out in the woods in real bear country. Sit out in a boat, on a lake in Florida during a June thunder Storm and THEN calculate your “risk of a Lightning Strike”…the odds increase significantly.
SECOND, where did you get your Black Bear vs Grizzly kill ratio assumptions? Since Grizzly only exist in 3 Continental U.S. States its a joke of a comparrison unless you base it on a Griz vs Black BEAR-Per-Capita basis. What is the ratio of fatal Bear attacks in parts of Alaska where both Black & Grizzly Bears exist? (I don’t know but would be like to see some objective verified numbers from 1900 to Now.).
THIRD: I absolutely LOVE the story of the “little girl chased by Black bear, ran into her home, (didn’t close the door?) but happened to have a pot of “boiling water on the stove”??? - threw that on the Bear !!! Sounds like she had time to make dinner for that bear —-as a diversion !! But I enjoyed your post

It reminds me of this people hat say the odds of being attacked by s great white shark are about the same as being struck by lightning. If you live in Kansas, I'd guess the odds are pretty.low. If you were an abalone diver in the "red triangle" of Northern California (as I was) I think the odds go up considerably. I never saw any dangerous sharks, but we were aware of the risk.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@HankBuck it's not a monogamous relationship with Glock, but rather that particular tool came into preference due to easy of carry and minimal maintenance requirements. If a certain other manufacturer had gotten their feces consolidated and produced a 10mm years ago, I would gladly have gone that route instead as I shoot that design better. It's a compromise that I am comfortable with and it doesn't take up much room during activities where I am focused on things that are not gun related. A revolver has a larger gear footprint for me with a cleaning kit in tow, less ammunition capacity and increased weight.

 

[Laniarius]

@Laniarius: FIRST, I always like those comparisons that compare perceived risk (of anything) to the risk from Lightning strike or Car accidents” and they are used for everything to belittle the real risk - from getting murdered in your home, die in plane crashes, killed by Bear etc…. What is never factored in —-How the risk “increases” when you are: Living in a home with abusive violent boyfriend, actually flying in a plane, or out in the woods in real bear country. Sit out in a boat, on a lake in Florida during a June thunder Storm and THEN calculate your “risk of a Lightning Strike”…the odds increase significantly.
SECOND, where did you get your Black Bear vs Grizzly kill ratio assumptions? Since Grizzly only exist in 3 Continental U.S. States its a joke of a comparrison unless you base it on a Griz vs Black BEAR-Per-Capita basis. What is the ratio of fatal Bear attacks in parts of Alaska where both Black & Grizzly Bears exist? (I don’t know but would be like to see some objective verified numbers from 1900 to Now.).
THIRD: I absolutely LOVE the story of the “little girl chased by Black bear, ran into her home, (didn’t close the door?) but happened to have a pot of “boiling water on the stove”??? - threw that on the Bear !!! Sounds like she had time to make dinner for that bear —-as a diversion !! But I enjoyed your post

Ok, regarding your first point. Fair enough. Such comparisons usually aren't apples to apples. Yes, a lot more humans spend a lot more time around other people than bears. And there are a lot more man hours outdoors in general (and sometimes in thunder storms) than people in bear country. Fine, I did not make great argument there.

Regarding your second point, I didn't mention any ratios or assumptions. I just described the general differences in black vs. brown bear fatal attack behaviour as described in Herrero's book, widely considered a solid source on the topic. Herrero isn't a PETA activist. He was a wildlife biology prof at the University of Calgary who researched bear attacks for decades, personally investigated some fatal attacks, etc. He talks about bear defense in his book and is not anti-gun. He has stats in his book as of around 2000 but I don't have the book with me because I loaned it to someone. Anyway, the discussion on here got me curious. Unfortunately the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America) isn't as well organized as it used to be, and the stats are broken out decade by decade. But because I find this interesting, I spent a bit of time to tally up the decades. Below is a listing of fatal attacks over the past hundred years. I may be off by one or two here or there because I manually counted from tables by decade. The individual instances are sourced in the Wikipedia article. It looks like they are mostly news articles. I am extremely skeptical of journalists in general (and have been my entire adult life since the early 90s), but things like this are reasonably verifiable. The general numbers are consistent with what I remember from Herrero and whenever I've looked this up over the years.

	Black Bear fatal attacks in NA	Brown Bear fatal attacks in NA
2020s	6​	11​
2010s	11​	18​
2000s	16​	10​
1990s	10​	15​
1980s	7​	10​
1970s	7​	9​
1960s	6​	3​
1950s	5​	4​
1940s	3​	4​
1930s	7​	3​
1920s	1​	3​
1910s	0​	1​
Total	79​	91​

So, slightly more brown bear fatalities than black bear. Since you mentioned that grizzlies are over a much smaller range, this suggests that they are generally more dangerous: fewer human interactions, but similar number of fatal attacks. While I find this interesting, I am not going to look up the precise location of each attack and examine the differences in areas where black and brown bears are both found, whether in Alaska or other jurisdictions. But given the relatively low total numbers, fewer than 100 fatal attacks by either kind of bear in North America over the past hundred years, when you start to slice and dice at that fine a level the numbers will get smaller and less meaningful statistically. Whatever the ratios are in various regions, it doesn't change the behavioural observations of how black vs. brown bears typically kill people.

Regarding your third point, ok, I get that the story sounds far fetched. I always found it amazing. I don't remember the exact details, but the pot happened to be on the stove when she fled the bear and ran into the cabin. Her parents were somewhere close by but not in the cabin. It's in Herrero. I can't personally vouch for the story but I'm pretty sure it was well documented. Regardless of whether that particular story is true, there is apparently a trend among almost-fatal black bear attacks where a determined human managed to discourage the bear. For sure, the bears probably could have killed the people in most of those cases, but it seems that putting up enough of a fight can sometimes make a black bear give up. That was my only point in mentioning that. Just something to add to the discussion here.

For sure, a good .45 ACP bullet would be much better than a fillet knife, a hatchet or a pot of boiling water against a black bear. And presumably also effective against meth heads or gangsters defending a marijuana field one happened to stumble across.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Ok, regarding your first point. Fair enough. Such comparisons usually aren't apples to apples. Yes, a lot more humans spend a lot more time around other people than bears. And there are a lot more man hours outdoors in general (and sometimes in thunder storms) than people in bear country. Fine, I did not make great argument there.

Regarding your second point, I didn't mention any ratios or assumptions. I just described the general differences in black vs. brown bear fatal attack behaviour as described in Herrero's book, widely considered a solid source on the topic. Herrero isn't a PETA activist. He was a wildlife biology prof at the University of Calgary who researched bear attacks for decades, personally investigated some fatal attacks, etc. He talks about bear defense in his book and is not anti-gun. He has stats in his book as of around 2000 but I don't have the book with me because I loaned it to someone. Anyway, the discussion on here got me curious. Unfortunately the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America) isn't as well organized as it used to be, and the stats are broken out decade by decade. But because I find this interesting, I spent a bit of time to tally up the decades. Below is a listing of fatal attacks over the past hundred years. I may be off by one or two here or there because I manually counted from tables by decade. The individual instances are sourced in the Wikipedia article. It looks like they are mostly news articles. I am extremely skeptical of journalists in general (and have been my entire adult life since the early 90s), but things like this are reasonably verifiable. The general numbers are consistent with what I remember from Herrero and whenever I've looked this up over the years.

	Black Bear fatal attacks in NA	Brown Bear fatal attacks in NA
2020s	6​	11​
2010s	11​	18​
2000s	16​	10​
1990s	10​	15​
1980s	7​	10​
1970s	7​	9​
1960s	6​	3​
1950s	5​	4​
1940s	3​	4​
1930s	7​	3​
1920s	1​	3​
1910s	0​	1​
Total	79​	91​

So, slightly more brown bear fatalities than black bear. Since you mentioned that grizzlies are over a much smaller range, this suggests that they are generally more dangerous: fewer human interactions, but similar number of fatal attacks. While I find this interesting, I am not going to look up the precise location of each attack and examine the differences in areas where black and brown bears are both found, whether in Alaska or other jurisdictions. But given the relatively low total numbers, fewer than 100 fatal attacks by either kind of bear in North America over the past hundred years, when you start to slice and dice at that fine a level the numbers will get smaller and less meaningful statistically. Whatever the ratios are in various regions, it doesn't change the behavioural observations of how black vs. brown bears typically kill people.

Regarding your third point, ok, I get that the story sounds far fetched. I always found it amazing. I don't remember the exact details, but the pot happened to be on the stove when she fled the bear and ran into the cabin. Her parents were somewhere close by but not in the cabin. It's in Herrero. I can't personally vouch for the story but I'm pretty sure it was well documented. Regardless of whether that particular story is true, there is apparently a trend among almost-fatal black bear attacks where a determined human managed to discourage the bear. For sure, the bears probably could have killed the people in most of those cases, but it seems that putting up enough of a fight can sometimes make a black bear give up. That was my only point in mentioning that. Just something to add to the discussion here.

For sure, a good .45 ACP bullet would be much better than a fillet knife, a hatchet or a pot of boiling water against a black bear. And presumably also effective against meth heads or gangsters defending a marijuana field one happened to stumble across.

Ok, regarding your first point. Fair enough. Such comparisons usually aren't apples to apples. Yes, a lot more humans spend a lot more time around other people than bears. And there are a lot more man hours outdoors in general (and sometimes in thunder storms) than people in bear country. Fine, I did not make great argument there.

Regarding your second point, I didn't mention any ratios or assumptions. I just described the general differences in black vs. brown bear fatal attack behaviour as described in Herrero's book, widely considered a solid source on the topic. Herrero isn't a PETA activist. He was a wildlife biology prof at the University of Calgary who researched bear attacks for decades, personally investigated some fatal attacks, etc. He talks about bear defense in his book and is not anti-gun. He has stats in his book as of around 2000 but I don't have the book with me because I loaned it to someone. Anyway, the discussion on here got me curious. Unfortunately the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America) isn't as well organized as it used to be, and the stats are broken out decade by decade. But because I find this interesting, I spent a bit of time to tally up the decades. Below is a listing of fatal attacks over the past hundred years. I may be off by one or two here or there because I manually counted from tables by decade. The individual instances are sourced in the Wikipedia article. It looks like they are mostly news articles. I am extremely skeptical of journalists in general (and have been my entire adult life since the early 90s), but things like this are reasonably verifiable. The general numbers are consistent with what I remember from Herrero and whenever I've looked this up over the years.

	Black Bear fatal attacks in NA	Brown Bear fatal attacks in NA
2020s	6​	11​
2010s	11​	18​
2000s	16​	10​
1990s	10​	15​
1980s	7​	10​
1970s	7​	9​
1960s	6​	3​
1950s	5​	4​
1940s	3​	4​
1930s	7​	3​
1920s	1​	3​
1910s	0​	1​
Total	79​	91​

So, slightly more brown bear fatalities than black bear. Since you mentioned that grizzlies are over a much smaller range, this suggests that they are generally more dangerous: fewer human interactions, but similar number of fatal attacks. While I find this interesting, I am not going to look up the precise location of each attack and examine the differences in areas where black and brown bears are both found, whether in Alaska or other jurisdictions. But given the relatively low total numbers, fewer than 100 fatal attacks by either kind of bear in North America over the past hundred years, when you start to slice and dice at that fine a level the numbers will get smaller and less meaningful statistically. Whatever the ratios are in various regions, it doesn't change the behavioural observations of how black vs. brown bears typically kill people.

Regarding your third point, ok, I get that the story sounds far fetched. I always found it amazing. I don't remember the exact details, but the pot happened to be on the stove when she fled the bear and ran into the cabin. Her parents were somewhere close by but not in the cabin. It's in Herrero. I can't personally vouch for the story but I'm pretty sure it was well documented. Regardless of whether that particular story is true, there is apparently a trend among almost-fatal black bear attacks where a determined human managed to discourage the bear. For sure, the bears probably could have killed the people in most of those cases, but it seems that putting up enough of a fight can sometimes make a black bear give up. That was my only point in mentioning that. Just something to add to the discussion here.

For sure, a good .45 ACP bullet would be much better than a fillet knife, a hatchet or a pot of boiling water against a black bear. And presumably also effective against meth heads or gangsters defending a marijuana field one happened to stumble across.

You put some work into gathering these stats. I appreciate your efforts.

Doug