450/400 3" double as a stopping rifle?

[Daniel Cary]

@Kevin Peacocke .. Lord only knows. 6 Shots including (Two 577's), etc.

vs. 450/400

 

[Daniel Cary]

"Even in the Contest between Man vs. Steer .. The Issue is never Certain"

Brain Shot 10ft away. 500?

 

[Green Chile]

Tell your friend to use his 375 Ruger and he will be perfectly fine with a good bullet in the right place. That's a great cartridge for a buff and especially for your first buff.

 

[One Day...]

Try the newest .577 load!

Turn your .577 NE from a stopping rifle into an accelerating rifle.
A lot more fun guaranteed!

Also available in .600 NE and on special order in .700 NE, for even more fun!

 

[Wyatt Smith]

The 450-400 3” is designed for smokeless powder. It has a thicker rim and stronger case.

 

[BeeMaa]

Try the newest .577 load!

View attachment 620092

Turn your .577 NE from a stopping rifle into an accelerating rifle.
A lot more fun guaranteed!

Also available in .600 NE and on special order in .700 NE, for even more fun!

You are killing me.

 

[TOBY458]

"Even in the Contest between Man vs. Steer .. The Issue is never Certain"

Brain Shot 10ft away. 500?

Yes. 500NE. The guy that shot from the truck had a heart condition that precluded him from hunting on foot. This is the video that started it all for Mark Sullivan. The first shot was in the bridge of the nose. Then the killing shot was just under the boss.

 

[TOBY458]

The 450-400 3” is designed for smokeless powder. It has a thicker rim and stronger case.

Correct. The 3 1/4 version was originally for black powder if I’m not mistaken. Much thinner rim and case thickness. The extra length is all in the neck of the case, where it doesn’t offer much more in respect to case capacity.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Without derailing too much I believe the 450-400 3”, the 450 No.2 and the 475 No.2 are the only nitro express cartridges designed around smokeless powder. All by Jeffrey.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Without derailing too much I believe the 450-400 3”, the 450 No.2 and the 475 No.2 are the only nitro express cartridges designed around smokeless powder. All by Jeffrey.

I think the 450 ne 3 1/4 was the first ne cartridge designed for smokeless

 

[flying sailor]

The .450-.400 3" was developed around 1896 by Jeffery. Probably the first large bore cartridge designed for use with the higher pressures produce by smokeless powder. 60 grain cordite loads with 400 grain slugs produced 2150 fps. The 3 1/4" was a blackpowder case and not as strong as originally designed. Source: A_Square loading manual. I have a Kreighoff in .450-.400 3", and am looking forward to using it on suitable game. Not as fun to say 400 Jeffery is it?

 

[Sourdough]

Ok so we are talking about a "stopping rifle" not a hunting rifle. And for Buffalo in particular. But hey why not throw elephant in there for good behavior. We are talking about something in the 500 class. In particular 500NE for a double and 505 Gibbs for a bolt gun. When the PH can finally afford one you can bet he will own a 500NE Double. That's what Buzz uses and in fact is having Rigby build him one to replace what he currently has. Richard Harland, who developed an affinity for bolt rifle, Mannlicher-Schonauer 458, when eliminating entire herds of Elephants, as a PH used a 505 Gibbs which he still has (and she is a beauty). Sten Cedergren used a 500NE double with the triggers wired together and he'd pull the back trigger firing both barrels at the same time- a true stopping rifle.

 

[318AE]

In 2008 Ruger collaborated with Craig Boddington to produce a DG series of Ruger no. 1 rifles. Each cartridge would have 250 rifles made, and the calibers were 375RUGER (lion), 450/400 (buffalo), 7x57 (leopard), 300H&H (kudu) and 450NE (elephant). They were released in that order as well.

The 450/400NE was originally made in 3 different lengths...2 3/8", 3" and 3 1/4". Partially as a result of the collaboration between Ruger and Boddington, the other two have fallen out of favor. It's my understanding that Craig had conversations with both Ruger and Hornady about which one to use and decided on the 3" version.

Ammo for the 2 3/8" is almost nonexistant and the 3 1/4" is not far behind. I know that Craig didn't intend to have a negative effect on these two cartridges, but he couldn't pick all three.

Is the 450/400 3 1/4" better than the 450/400 3"...I suppose it could be better if you could find ammo.

In addition to what a few others have said about the 3” case being thicker and designed for cordite vs a revamped bpe cartridge (and easier to reload IMO), Craig once wrote that far, far more pre-war doubles were made for the 3” compared the the 3 1/4 or any other chambering. That matches what I see anecdotally in the second hand market and auctions. That 2 3/8” is a unicorn in my experience. Well before the Ruger #1 came around, the 3” was already the most popular or common variant.

The potential case capacity “advantage” is a little moot, since it will all be about the load that regulates. I think two loads were available, a 60 and 55, with the 55 tropical actually being more common. I’ve had 450/400 3” doubles proofed for each. The 450/400 3 1/4’s I’ve had have all been 60.

 

[Saul]

is the recoil of the 450/400 that substantially less than the 450 NE as to justify the decrease in power?

 

[Pondoro]

My .450/400 3 1/4 (10.3lbs) has less felt recoil than an average .375H&H bolt rifle..

So those who struggle with the recoil of a large bore rifle will probably shoot a .450/400 more accurate than a large bore..

 

[Brian]

I appreciate all the thoughtful and useful post Thanks to everybody.

Uplander's post about how "Things change when you get to the 50's" is very true as far as I am concerned.

I am still stuck on the recoil thing. I think a lot of it is mental. A man will shoot 2-3 boxes of 3 inch magnum 12 gauge loads in a cold morning of goose shooting but cannot handle a couple of rounds of 458 WM in the bush on a cape buffalo.

Also, In my old age I err on the side of caution. ( "Just in Case".) and like a .500 or bigger for cape buffalo for my own hunting. I guess that I have become one of those "belt and suspenders" guys.
It sure is satisfying to hit a buffalo hard in the chest with a .500 or a .577( Ar!-arr arrr..)

I used to box a little bit and I figure that I hit like a 375 and all my sparring parters hit like a .500

Cheers, Brian

 

[Daniel Cary]

Now that's a Mule Gun.

 

[BeeMaa]

I am still stuck on the recoil thing. I think a lot of it is mental. A man will shoot 2-3 boxes of 3 inch magnum 12 gauge loads in a cold morning of goose shooting but cannot handle a couple of rounds of 458 WM in the bush on a cape buffalo.

My Benelli SBE3 (7 lbs) with 3.5" magnum loads of 2 1/4 oz of 7 shot TSS at 1200 fps are WAAAAAY worse than my 375H&H (7.75 lbs) with 300 grain bullets at 2500 fps.

BTW - I had a 416RM but it was right at my recoil tolerance level. I had done enough shooting with a 375 that it wasn't a big step up in recoil, but it was definitely a step up. Combine that with how many times I'm likely to hunt DG and the 416RM was sold shortly after.

Not sure how the 416RM compares to the 450/400NE, but if the ballistic numbers are correct and the laws of physics still apply...the RM will hit harder (on both ends). I say this because you are more likely to know someone with a 416RM than 450/400NE and you can try it out. If you are good with the RM, you should be fine with the NE.

 

[Altitude sickness]

When I shot my cow last month with my .505 Gibbs, offhand from 20 ish yards.
She immediately tipped over. I hit her in the left leg, heart and exited the right leg.
I had racked the second round and fired into her side before she hit the ground.

I did not remember shooting either round and can not recall any recoil at all.

Use enough gun you won’t remember the recoil

 

[Mike70560]

Correct. The 3 1/4 version was originally for black powder if I’m not mistaken. Much thinner rim and case thickness. The extra length is all in the neck of the case, where it doesn’t offer much more in respect to case capacity.

I have a 450-400 3 1/4. The rim is a little thinner, however I have fired quite a few rounds and never had any issues. It is proofed for 60 grains of Cordite. The most stress on the rim is applied when resizing the case, never had an issue there neither.

Other than arguing around a campfire or on the internet there is not a nickel's worth of difference in performance between the 3" or 3 1/4" if the they are both proofed for 60 grains. It is much easier to find loaded ammo for the 3" version, however reloading solves that problem.