450/400 3" double as a stopping rifle?

[Hunter-Habib]

If the 450/400 is not enough then why does many PHs carry a 375 HH ?

It would be quite interesting to know how many of those white hunters (nowadays known as “PHs”) actually use .375 Holland & Holland Magnums AS THEIR BACKUP RIFLE WHEN GUIDING CLiENTS ON A DANGEROUS GAME HUNT.

50 years of going of African safaris, and I only know of one- Wally Johnson (who actually got gored by a charging Cape buffalo in 1970 that his .375 Holland & Holland Magnum failed to stop).

 

[Green Chile]

I don't know of any PH who regularly guides for DG using less than 416 Rigby and most are using 458 minimum...and those are Lotts not win mag.

 

[Green Chile]

I should have said 416 (not Rigby)...I know one or two with Remington mags. That's the bottom level of what I've seen.

 

[318AE]

The big bores are really cool. I have more than a few and really enjoy them. Most all the cartridges we are discussing were developed at the dawn of modern propellants, in an age of cup and core bullets. Much has changed. There were some really poorly constructed bullets at the time, both soft and solid.

The best way to stop a charge is a well placed bullet in the brain or the nearby spinal cord. I’ve had some remarkably experienced PHs do dangerous game hunts with a 375 and solids (heresy I know). This has been mostly, but not exclusively, buffalo, which likely represents most dangerous game hunting in Africa today. Perhaps a 500 grain+ bullet, off the mark, in an elephants skull but not its brain will stun it or turn it as Taylor describe a hundred years ago, and that provides a margin of error for poor shot placement. I think the question is as much “are stopping rifles still a thing” as is it “is a 450/400 a stopping rifle”. I know many here will not agree….

 

[Pondoro]

Premium bullets is developed for the large bores as well as the .375H&H, so the large bores bullets of today are also better than ever..

From what I have seen..the .375 kills buffalo but not as devastating as a large bore.. I shot a couple of elephant with .375H&H, it went OK, but will not do that again..I have better rifles for that..

But as always..coolness, and good shooting is as mandatory as ever..

 

[Nhoro]

I think all would agree that the only way to stop elephant / buffalo/ hippo instantly is destroying the brain. Therefore any rifle which can reach and destroy the brain from the front is a stopper. We all hope that a bigger calibre increases the margin for error ie you miss the brain but the bigger calibre/energy/noise/ noise turns the animal or knocks it out or stuns it so you can put more shots in. So bigger calibres are more a hope than a certainty. We.hope that a 458 lott or 500 NE will make a difference on a marginal shot. And I think they do- a millimetre can make the difference.

Kevin, I think the 450/400 can kill an elephant from the front and so will work on a buffalo. But a 500 ne makes a bigger bang and smoke screen to escape behind.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

My experience with different calibres on dangerous game.
I have used 9.3X62, 375 H&H, 458 Lott, 450 Rigby and 470 Nitro Express.
Although I absolutely love the 9.3X62 and it may just be my all time favourite cartridge it does feel a bit light in your hands when you are in a situation with a DG animal that is being reluctant to go down. The 375 H&H felt the same for me, did the job fine but just didn't have that feel of authority and hitting power when firing follow up shots.

We all know shot placement on the first shot is all important but that's not what this discussion is about.

From my experience and IMHO a cartridge producing enough energy to more likely potentially turn an animal like a buffalo without a brain or spine shot starts at around the 5000ft/lbs of energy. Will a 9.3, 375, 450/400 also do the job, in many scenarios those cartridges probably would, in some scenarios probably not. Will the bigger cartridges always turn an animal without a brain or spine shot, probably not but obviously the bigger cartridges are more likely to achieve this than the smaller cartridges.

I also consider going away shots just as important for a "stopping rifle", maybe not as important as in life or death for the hunter but just as important as in recovering the animal. There are far more scenarios for both a client and PH having to take shots at an animal going away that isn't mortally wounded than taking shots at an animal charging that isn't mortally wounded. Again, can the 9.3's 375's, 450/400's etc hit the animal hard enough and do enough damage to either slow it down or completely stop it when running away, yes 100% all those cartridges can potentially do that and do it quite well but will the bigger cartridges do it better, yes 100% they will.

I feel that if you are having this discussion in your own head and having a "stopping rifle" makes you feel more comfortable then use a rule of thumb that makes sense, 4800-5000ft/lbs as an example is probably a good starting point and then choose your rifle and cartridge based on this.

 

[Brian]

I have never fired a 450-400 at anything but here are some numbers that go in favour of the 45-70 over the 450-400.

- 450-400, 400 grain, .410 cal. bullet at 2,000 fps. MV.
- 45-70, 400 grain. .450 cal. bullet at 2,000 fps MV.

45-70 is the winner with bigger diameter bullet.

Brian

 

[BeeMaa]

I have never fired a 450-400 at anything but here are some numbers that go in favour of the 45-70 over the 450-400.

- 450-400, 400 grain, .410 cal. bullet at 2,000 fps. MV.
- 45-70, 400 grain. .450 cal. bullet at 2,000 fps MV.

45-70 is the winner with bigger diameter bullet.

Brian

 

[HankBuck]

To put it another way...would you consider the 416RUGER to be a "stopping" cartridge?

Because if you think the 450/400NE 3" is a stopper, the 416RUGER shoots a larger diameter bullet and still makes over 5000 lb-ft of energy. I know NO ONE who would consider using a 416RUGER as stopping rifle.

@BeeMaa - do you think ammo availability factors into a PH’s decision to Not use .416 Ruger? My PH in TZ used a .416 Remington bolt action and told me about having to use it to kill an elephant that had charged and attacted their truck the year before. He carried that rifle daily on our hunt (but never fired it) and did mention that he was looking to purchase a double rifle in.470NE (either Chapuis or Searcy)…at the end our our Safari he inquired about buying my Chapius .470 but I wasn’t ready to sell it at that time…..

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

My experience with different calibres on dangerous game.
I have used 9.3X62, 375 H&H, 458 Lott, 450 Rigby and 470 Nitro Express.
Although I absolutely love the 9.3X62 and it may just be my all time favourite cartridge it does feel a bit light in your hands when you are in a situation with a DG animal that is being reluctant to go down. The 375 H&H felt the same for me, did the job fine but just didn't have that feel of authority and hitting power when firing follow up shots.

We all know shot placement on the first shot is all important but that's not what this discussion is about.

From my experience and IMHO a cartridge producing enough energy to more likely potentially turn an animal like a buffalo without a brain or spine shot starts at around the 5000ft/lbs of energy. Will a 9.3, 375, 450/400 also do the job, in many scenarios those cartridges probably would, in some scenarios probably not. Will the bigger cartridges always turn an animal without a brain or spine shot, probably not but obviously the bigger cartridges are more likely to achieve this than the smaller cartridges.

I also consider going away shots just as important for a "stopping rifle", maybe not as important as in life or death for the hunter but just as important as in recovering the animal. There are far more scenarios for both a client and PH having to take shots at an animal going away that isn't mortally wounded than taking shots at an animal charging that isn't mortally wounded. Again, can the 9.3's 375's, 450/400's etc hit the animal hard enough and do enough damage to either slow it down or completely stop it when running away, yes 100% all those cartridges can potentially do that and do it quite well but will the bigger cartridges do it better, yes 100% they will.

I feel that if you are having this discussion in your own head and having a "stopping rifle" makes you feel more comfortable then use a rule of thumb that makes sense, 4800-5000ft/lbs as an example is probably a good starting point and then choose your rifle and cartridge based on this.

Great answer, thanks.

 

[HankBuck]

I have never fired a 450-400 at anything but here are some numbers that go in favour of the 45-70 over the 450-400.

- 450-400, 400 grain, .410 cal. bullet at 2,000 fps. MV.
- 45-70, 400 grain. .450 cal. bullet at 2,000 fps MV.

45-70 is the winner with bigger diameter bullet.

Brian

@Brian - before my Buff hunt I called and spoke with my PH about what rifle and load I would be using. I was looking to buy a .470NE double rifle just for this hunt but mentioned I already owned a .45-70. My PH was very supportive of my bringing a .45-70 and said he had many clients kill buff using .45-70 “fine cartridge, use hardcast bullets” was his comment. I ended up buying and bringing a .470NE Chapuis double rifle but could’ve easily saved $14,000 and taken my Marlin 1895 in .45-70. Also, regarding versatility, I still use my .45-70 every year but the Chapuis .470NE has been a safe queen and is now for sale…

 

[HWL]

I think, it's good for stopping a lion or leopard, because it is easy to shoot and recovery time for the second shot is short. To stop a ele or buff there are better cartridhes...

HWL

 

[Daniel Cary]

@Kevin Peacocke .. I asked these guy's & they indeed were using the 450/400?

 

[Brian]

Some of you have already heard all this but it merits repeating here.

I load my 577NE to fire a 700 gr Peregrine BushMaster bullet at about 1,850 fps. or a 600 grain CEB Raptor bullet at 1,920 fps and my .50-110 shoots a 410 grain CEB Raptor at 1,950 fps. Yes, that is kinda slow but the moderate recoil suits me. Also my rifle, a old converted break open single shot 10 ga. with switch barrels, is happy with the lower pressures. A decent shot with either cartridge gives me a DRT kill. It's not for everyone but it suits me.

In my opinion bullet diameter and design/construction are the most significant factors for a cape buffalo bullet. Also the .500 and bigger calibers turn a well designed solid bullet into a "dragon slayer."

The 600 grain .585 cal CEB Raptor bullet has 6 brass, break-away blades in the front of the bullet that spiral through the vital organs, slicing and dicing and making a ghastly mess while the substantial remaining core of the bullet with its .610" diameter flat meplat continues to penetrate straight and deep. Most people have to see it to believe it. The .500 cal. Raptor bullet has similar performance.)

Brian

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

Have a listen to Kevin here @Kevin Peacocke
Some good advice here. He sure loved his 505


View attachment 619767

That’s good pod!

 

[degoins]

No it is not. Send yours to me and I'll use it on deer and maybe a coyote if I see one. You will then have an excuse to order a 470 or something. You're welcome.

 

[1dirthawker]

@Kevin Peacocke,

i never wished for a smaller caliber or fewer bullets when going after a wounded brown bear. i suspect DG hunters feel the same about follow ups in their neck of the woods.

BTW, i own a double 450-400

 

[BeeMaa]

@BeeMaa - do you think ammo availability factors into a PH’s decision to Not use .416 Ruger? My PH in TZ used a .416 Remington bolt action and told me about having to use it to kill an elephant that had charged and attacted their truck the year before. He carried that rifle daily on our hunt (but never fired it) and did mention that he was looking to purchase a double rifle in.470NE (either Chapuis or Searcy)…at the end our our Safari he inquired about buying my Chapius .470 but I wasn’t ready to sell it at that time…..

Absolutely ammo availability is a factor, at least to the PH's I've spoken with. At the same time, many of them reload so it's important...but not paramount depending on components.

As for 416RM vs 416RUGER...The ballistics are nearly identical. I suppose it could come down to what rifle is available at the time as well as the ammo issue.

Now using a 416RM (or equivalent) as a stopping rifle. Every PH I've talked to has said that TRUE stopping rifles start a .458 caliber and go up from there. This is not my opinion, it's theirs. If my PH decided to use a 416RM or 375H&H, I would not question his choices. He's the pro, I'm the client...I'll stay in my lane.

 

[Green Chile]

Now using a 416RM (or equivalent) as a stopping rifle. Every PH I've talked to has said that TRUE stopping rifles start a .458 caliber and go up from there. This is not my opinion, it's theirs. If my PH decided to use a 416RM or 375H&H, I would not question his choices. He's the pro, I'm the client...I'll stay in my lane.

That's what I hear as well. I know many years ago, Buzz used to use a Ruger 416 Rigby but that was long ago. I was with a PH 2 weeks ago that was using a 416 Rem in South Africa but he goes bigger when guiding in Zim and Bots. Those are the only 2 exceptions I have encountered in 25 years.