450/400 3" double as a stopping rifle?

That's what I hear as well. I know many years ago, Buzz used to use a Ruger 416 Rigby but that was long ago. I was with a PH 2 weeks ago that was using a 416 Rem in South Africa but he goes bigger when guiding in Zim and Bots. Those are the only 2 exceptions I have encountered in 25 years.
I was about to say the same thing. Buzz used the 416 Rigby in a Ruger M77 for quite awhile. And he hunts A LOT of elephants. So it would indicate that the 416s are at least adequate for the job. However the 416s do offer quite a bit more velocity with the same 400gr bullets as the 450/400. And can also use 450gr bullets. I would say that would make them better penetrators on game such as elephant, hippo and buffalo. Not sure if the extra foot pounds of energy matters more than the extra penetration or not.
Also, as for body shots, I’d say they are not a reliable way of stopping an animal, no matter what the caliber is. Only a brain shot will fully accomplish this under all circumstances. And penetration, it would seem, matters much more than raw power under that premise.
A caliber that will reach the brain from any angle would be my choice. And some extra caliber up front is probably a great thing as well. The 416s would probably be the minimum in that respect. With 458-500 probably being the sweet spot of portability and power in the same package.
 
I just think that things change as soon as you get the .50's. Something about that energy level when it hits a buff, they just seem to react differently, I think they get shocked from the energy transfer a little. At least it seems that way to me after being involved in a handful of buff hunts and myself having used a 500 Jeffery on 2. The one situation that makes me think this is I hit a big bull at 90 yards just inside the left shoulder on a frontal shot, busted the shoulder and wrecked that side lung, but I'm pretty sure with a smaller caliber it would have been off to the races, instead after taking the shot, he spun around so his ass was then facing me and I swear he was looking around shaking his head unsure WTF just happened. We thought he was just going to tip over but after a few seconds he started the 3-legged jog on the opposite direction so I sent another 570 soft up in front of hip length wise and into the spine,.....an animal can't slam to the ground any harder or faster.
 
I have never fired a 450-400 at anything but here are some numbers that go in favour of the 45-70 over the 450-400.

- 450-400, 400 grain, .410 cal. bullet at 2,000 fps. MV.
- 45-70, 400 grain. .450 cal. bullet at 2,000 fps MV.

45-70 is the winner with bigger diameter bullet.

Brian
Good luck with that.

Please make sure you have a discussion with your PH about your intentions to use a 45-70 for buffalo.
 
Great hunting caliber without a doubt. I don't know of any PHs using one as a stopper.

One quite a few years ago...he was zim ex Nat parks and had culled elephant well in 3 figures, and used a 450/400 which he somehow managed to buy from the nat parks armoury when he left....was carrying it on an ele hunt in 2000 that I had booked for a friend....he obviously had vast experience on how to shoot ele....and he loved the double rifle he used and was totally confident in it....also a lot of phs used the 375 when big cal ammunition became nigh on impossible to find....some I knew didn't trust the 458 win mag back then, and a few bought 416 rem when it came out to replace their 375s....then upped to 470 and 500 doubles as they started to come across more buff wounded by poachers or snared and in shit moods...sometimes very unexpectedly...
 
The concept of "Stopping rifle"...

... is an interesting one...

stop / noun: a cessation of movement or operation (Oxford Languages dictionary).

From a kinetics perspective, Nothing short of a howitzer will stop in its tracks a charging Elephant (5 to 6 metric tons), Rhino (1 to 3 metric tons), Hippo (1+ metric ton) or Buffalo (1- metric ton), so the very concept of a shoulder-fired "stopping rifle" in the stricto sensu is somewhat flawed from a body shot perspective.

From a brain shot perspective. Most DG with both lungs collapsed and a exploded heart will happily transform you in an unsightly stain in the African dust, if they can catch you in the following minute or so. Therefore, as already stated in this thread, the only truly "stopping" shot is a brain shot. Period.

From this perspective, as also previously mentioned, any caliber/bullet that can reach the brain on a frontal shot is a "stopping caliber". Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell had great success with the 6.5x54 Mannlicher and 7x57 Mauser. I doubt we would consider these "stopping" calibers, therefore there is more to the story...

From a non brain shot / missed brain shot perspective. This is where additional experiences are interesting. Another legendary ivory hunter (personal life-choices set aside), John Taylor, devoted considerable time and experimentations to the conceptualization of his knock-out factor, the Taylor KO. In his experience, dropping in its track a charging elephant could also be accomplished with knocking it out inconscient for a brief moment with a blow strong enough and close enough to the brain.

This is how, to make a long story short, and as already mentioned in this thread, the popular wisdom of shooting a minimum of .45 caliber / 500 gr bullet / 2150 fps / 5.000 ft. lbs. became a dogma.

I am not aware of too many modern folks having more experience than "Pondoro" and I see little rationale for questioning his conclusions, shared, it must be noted, by a comfortable majority of most any and all famed "White Hunters" of lore.

From this perspective, in Taylor's parlance, the baseline is around ~70 KO (.470 NE), and the .450/400 fails the test with ~50 KO. And so does even the full power .416 with ~60 KO. Those wanting a margin of error, and they were numerous, with John Hunter coming to mind, preferred the ~90 KO of the .500 NE.

Modern double rifles. Anything of 45+ caliber qualifies, assuming of course that we are discussing smokeless powder calibers, and the bigger you go the more KO you deliver. On both ends mind you, so there is a definite diminishing return for most of us mere mortals with such canons as the .577 (~120+ KO). Anything in the .400 range (~50 KO) falls below the threshold.

Modern bolt rifles. Notwithstanding 60+ year old horror stories of clumped ball powder in compressed charges baked by the African sun, the modern loads for the .458 Win (~70 KO) do qualify, but barely, so the modern wisdom for bolt action rifles has become the .458 Lott, with a recent interesting revival of the .500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs (~90+ KO). As previously mentioned, the 416 (~60 KO) falls below the threshold.


I am not sure that there is any modern development, including monolithic bullets, that lends itself to successfully challenging the established wisdom, although, indeed, many tried and still try to rationalize choices they had/have to make based on financial availability.
 
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Same caliber, different context.
I’ve read (I forget where) that Elmer Keith opined if he were crawling through the bush in Alaska after grizzlies he’d want his double .450/400 over anything else in his battery.
 
Good luck with that.

Please make sure you have a discussion with your PH about your intentions to use a 45-70 for buffalo.
BeeMaa,

Your response is revealing. Please give me some time to process it. Thanks,

Brian
 
PH Rob Obsidian (apologies if I butchered the last name spelling) has been carrying a 416 for 25 years. From memory a 416 Rem Mag.
 
Brain shot. Even a 375 with a brain shot will stop a buff
A 30-06 will stop a buffalo or elephant with a brain shot.

For what little my advice is worth, I would not recommend a 450-400 NE as a primary stopping rifle. Personally I would want at least something like a 458 WM or 450 NE. If I was a PH who dealt with a lot a buffalo or elephants, then a 500 NE double would likely be my go-to stopping gun.
 
Howdy, Can you help me out a bit here, please?

I have a young pal here in Kamloops that wants to go cape buffalo hunting and he is pretty serious. He is a better shot/hunter than me and can easily handle his 375 Ruger.

Well, you know me, I am trying to coax him to into at least a .458 Win mag. and he is not biting. He said he is not interested in the 458 WM recoil. I have a nice 458WM with a 23 inch barrel with a fat Limbsaver recoil pad that he could use and I told him that I would load it down just a tad for his delicate shoulder, he chuckled bit and said he would give it whirl off of sticks at the range.

So, before I get into this too wound up on this, ( I don't want to load up a dozen 458 A Frame bullets if I am on the wrong track.) I think I should first just check with you guys for what you think of this.

What say you about a 458 WM loader to about 2,050 fps with a 400 grain A Frame bullet or a 400 grain CEB Raptor, for a cape buffalo killer? That is close to what a 458WM Factory Load used to be back in the 70's.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. Brian
 
Howdy, Can you help me out a bit here, please?

I have a young pal here in Kamloops that wants to go cape buffalo hunting and he is pretty serious. He is a better shot/hunter than me and can easily handle his 375 Ruger.

Well, you know me, I am trying to coax him to into at least a .458 Win mag. and he is not biting. He said he is not interested in the 458 WM recoil. I have a nice 458WM with a 23 inch barrel with a fat Limbsaver recoil pad that he could use and I told him that I would load it down just a tad for his delicate shoulder, he chuckled bit and said he would give it whirl off of sticks at the range.

So, before I get into this too wound up on this, ( I don't want to load up a dozen 458 A Frame bullets if I am on the wrong track.) I think I should first just check with you guys for what you think of this.

What say you about a 458 WM loader to about 2,050 fps with a 400 grain A Frame bullet or a 400 grain CEB Raptor, for a cape buffalo killer? That is close to what a 458WM Factory Load used to be back in the 70's.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. Brian

Just let him use his ruger.....
 
Hi Spike,
Thanks for your suggestion.

He asked my what cartridge I liked for cape buffalo and when I told him of my experience of killing 6 buffalo with a 375 HH with excellent bullets and 7 buffalo with .500 and a 577 NE with excellent bullets and it led him to ask more questions. You know how that goes. Brian.

PS. I never mentioned that he asked about "Stopping Power". b
 
Howdy, Can you help me out a bit here, please?

I have a young pal here in Kamloops that wants to go cape buffalo hunting and he is pretty serious. He is a better shot/hunter than me and can easily handle his 375 Ruger.

Well, you know me, I am trying to coax him to into at least a .458 Win mag. and he is not biting. He said he is not interested in the 458 WM recoil. I have a nice 458WM with a 23 inch barrel with a fat Limbsaver recoil pad that he could use and I told him that I would load it down just a tad for his delicate shoulder, he chuckled bit and said he would give it whirl off of sticks at the range.

So, before I get into this too wound up on this, ( I don't want to load up a dozen 458 A Frame bullets if I am on the wrong track.) I think I should first just check with you guys for what you think of this.

What say you about a 458 WM loader to about 2,050 fps with a 400 grain A Frame bullet or a 400 grain CEB Raptor, for a cape buffalo killer? That is close to what a 458WM Factory Load used to be back in the 70's.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. Brian
A 375 Ruger with standard loads would be much better than a 458 WM loaded down to 45-70 performance.
 
Just let him use his ruger.....

Completely agree (y)

The general sentiment, echoed by many on AH, is that the immense majority of clients will never be involved in a "stopping" scenario, hence a "stopping" caliber is unnecessary. I happen to prefer one, just in case, but I have admittedly never needed it :E Shrug:

More to the point, I shoot it well. We never want to press up anyone to use a bigger rifle (with more recoil) than what they want. This is a sure recipe to a flinch and a poor shot placement. Any PH will prefer a .375 in the right spot to a .458 Lott in the wrong spot...

Sure, if one shoots the .458 Lott just as well as the .375, the Lott is better, but power is meaningless without placement.


PS Brian, the original .458 Win load was indeed generally at least 100 fps slower than the 2,150 fps spec, if only because few .458 Win rifles had a 26" barrel, but keep in mind that it used a 510 gr bullet, resulting in a very different beast from a 400 gr at 2,050 fps.
 
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Why is the 450-400 3" better than the 450-400 3 1/4"?
In 2008 Ruger collaborated with Craig Boddington to produce a DG series of Ruger no. 1 rifles. Each cartridge would have 250 rifles made, and the calibers were 375RUGER (lion), 450/400 (buffalo), 7x57 (leopard), 300H&H (kudu) and 450NE (elephant). They were released in that order as well.

The 450/400NE was originally made in 3 different lengths...2 3/8", 3" and 3 1/4". Partially as a result of the collaboration between Ruger and Boddington, the other two have fallen out of favor. It's my understanding that Craig had conversations with both Ruger and Hornady about which one to use and decided on the 3" version.

Ammo for the 2 3/8" is almost nonexistant and the 3 1/4" is not far behind. I know that Craig didn't intend to have a negative effect on these two cartridges, but he couldn't pick all three.

Is the 450/400 3 1/4" better than the 450/400 3"...I suppose it could be better if you could find ammo.
 
...
Is the 450/400 3 1/4" better than the 450/400 3"...I suppose it could be better if you could find ammo.

In classic Nitro Express days, BeeMaa, it would have had lower pressure, a decidedly advantageous characteristic when African sun was cooking Cordite to unexpected pressures. This was the logic for many of the larger-cased cartridge such as .450 #2 vs. .450 etc.

That is when the case dimensions difference was not just an artifice of "designing" a proprietary caliber such as .500/465 H&H vs. .470 NE :E Rofl:
 
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