416 Rigby vs 458 WinMag a civil discussion

[intj]

@michael458's comment regarding the 416:

"And, FYI BTW........ 76-78 inches of penetration in my test medium is the deepest that I have seen regardless of caliber.........."

is similar to what I have seen elsewhere.

I would really like to see a CEB BBW #13 458/500 in Michael's penetration test at velocities up to 2400 fps. Like Michael said, I also don't think his one test is proof that a 416/400 will out penetrate a 458/500. I think at some velocity the 458/500 would penetrate deeper. I have just never seen any evidence of that reported anywhere.

I am sure Michael's response to me would be that since he has already told me that a CEB BBW #13 458/450 perpetrates plenty on elephant and hits harder that a 416, that I can go shoot my own test if I want to see what a 458/500 does at 2400 FPS................................

 

[CZDiesel]

@michael458's comment regarding the 416:

"And, FYI BTW........ 76-78 inches of penetration in my test medium is the deepest that I have seen regardless of caliber.........."

is similar to what I have seen elsewhere.

I would really like to see a CEB BBW #13 458/500 in Michael's penetration test at velocities up to 2400 fps. Like Michael said, I also don't think his one test is proof that a 416/400 will out penetrate a 458/500. I think at some velocity the 458/500 would penetrate deeper. I have just never seen any evidence of that reported anywhere.

I am sure Michael's response to me would be that since he has already told me that a CEB BBW #13 458/450 perpetrates plenty on elephant and hits harder that a 416, that I can go shoot my own test if I want to see what a 458/500 does at 2400 FPS................................

He also went on to say this…

“The CEB and North Fork do react to increased velocity by a good margin. I would not discount that a 400 CEB 416 at 2400 fps might penetrate some deeper than a 500 CEB 458 at 2150 fps? I can't say definitively since I have not tested that exact scenario.”

So as it stands right now no one has shown that the 416 can out penetrate a 458 but everyone has agreed that the 458 will put more energy and drop a dangerous animal faster…

 

[intj]

He also went on to say this…

“The CEB and North Fork do react to increased velocity by a good margin. I would not discount that a 400 CEB 416 at 2400 fps might penetrate some deeper than a 500 CEB 458 at 2150 fps? I can't say definitively since I have not tested that exact scenario.”

So as it stands right now no one has shown that the 416 can out penetrate a 458 but everyone has agreed that the 458 will put more energy and drop a dangerous animal faster…

He said this regarding the 416/400s at 2400 fps out of a 416 Rem in Post 37:

"And, FYI BTW........ 76-78 inches of penetration in my test medium is the deepest that I have seen regardless of caliber.........."

He was talking about the 416/400.

He doesn't have any data showing any other caliber penetrating as deep. None of us have shown that here yet. All we have is speculation by several of us that a 458/500 at 2300-2400 would out penetrate the 416/400.

 

[CZDiesel]

He said this regarding the 416/400s at 2400 fps out of a 416 Rem in Post 37:

"And, FYI BTW........ 76-78 inches of penetration in my test medium is the deepest that I have seen regardless of caliber.........."

He was talking about the 416/400.

He doesn't have any data showing any other caliber penetrating as deep. None of us have shown that here yet. All we have is speculation by several of us that a 458/500 at 2300-2400 would out penetrate the 416/400.

Yes but he didn’t have data on the 458 for it… let’s not turn this into a this for that yeah? As I said it’s inconclusive at this point right?
I know that you are sold on the 416 and it’s a great choice!
But what we have confirmed is that the 458 makes a much bigger impression on game transferring more energy and shock while still penetrating as well or better!
So when you get definitive data that it out penetrates a 458 let me know…

 

[PerH]

Hi Mark.......... again I apologize, I did not read everything in the thread, just the first posts and the post where I am mentioned........ and its a good thing that some of you mention the other various factors involved.....

416 caliber is more sensitive than 458 caliber with twist rates and velocity. Even a very well designed Solid, such as the Cutting Edge or modern North Forks, 400 gr is just not quite 100% stable at 1:14 or slower twist rates. Depth and straight line penetration can be enhanced at higher velocities with the slower twist rate.

Ever heard that "Size Matters"........ I believe in the case of solids, size does matter especially concerning meplat size. Lets look at the actual size of a 416 CEB Meplat at 67% of caliber, it measures .278 inches actual............ the same CEB .458 caliber Solid at 67% meplat of caliber measures .307 inches actual.

When these Flat Nose solids begin terminal penetration in aqueous medium they become essentially Front End Drive......... The Front end steers the bullet and if the design is proper and other related factors are correct, then it remains dead straight for the duration of penetration.

I have tested these type solids in barrels that have no rifling, essentially smooth bores, and have found that above .458 caliber, these bullets can self stabilize themselves to on average 90% of the total depth of penetration, no engraving at all...... which is incredible to say the least. I have not done so in .416 caliber, however I do not believe that 416 can do that. We have stability issues with 416 with slower twist rates, much less no rifling or engraving at all....... I believe this is because of "Actual Meplat Size"....... Which seems logical to me.

A friend and test partner was curious about twist rates in .416. My 416s all had 1:14 twist rates, 416 B&M and 416 Remingtons, I am not sure what the one Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby is. He built a 416 B&M with a 1:12 twist barrel and we tested the stability of a 400 CEB #13 Solid.............

And we also did a test in 416 Remington at higher velocity, at 1:14 twist.......

Dramatic increase in stability between 1;14 and 1;12 twists...... as you see. We also see that higher velocity also increased stability in a 1;14 twist........

in .458 caliber + with proper designs Twist rate is not as important...... twist rate is important with less than desirable designs.......

And, FYI BTW........ 76-78 inches of penetration in my test medium is the deepest that I have seen regardless of caliber.......... But, I do not believe that this is absolute proof that 416 will out penetrate 458........ I think more factors are involved and become more important ............ I have had a few others hit over that 70 inch threshold............

Another friend of mine was a 6.5 fan and had this oddity we tested once ..........

And later was instrumental in the design of this bullet, which I never tested.......... but think it would most certainly be interesting........

I read about the 6,5 Ceb was tested in a buffalo by Boddington in a little Farquasohn rifle owned by

I think you can see the bullet in use here.

Btw which twist was it on the 6,5 you used to build the bullet around ?

 

[michael458]

Let me take a second to either muddy the water or maybe clear it up a little.... might can go either way depending.... LOL....

I started doing Terminal test work in or around the mid 1990s, and primarily with anything that I might be going to the field with, or might have need for in the near future. I never really trusted just what I was told or read, I wanted to see it for myself before using it in the field. Over time we began to learn to correlate between test work and other test medium, like buffalo! Which is fine test medium and the Final solution. But not only buffalo was used, many other fine creatures donated to the cause as well. But only after Terminal Tests here in the range. Early days everything was outside, and from early 2000s indoor shooting range which was much more conducive to doing serious work, having materials on hand and ready to work with at a moments notice, almost.... I never went to the field without having some sort of idea of how things worked. We would learn even more, and confirm things from the field work and study.

We learned that the test medium was far more dense and tough on bullets than most animal tissue, unless you encountered bone of course. We learned that with Conventional Expanding bullets a Rule of Thumb for depth of penetration would be a 70% increase in penetration in animal tissue over the test medium. For Non Conventional Generation 1 and 2 CNC bullets, such as copper Lehigh, Hammer, CEB and Raptors, it was closer to 100% increase in depth of penetration. Solids were different and we finally homed in on a 35% Rule of Thumb increase in depth of penetration in animal tissue over the test medium........ All Rule of Thumb mind you, and field conditions were never a constant, animal tissue never a constant and so forth........

If you had a Solid that penetrated from 60 inches to 78 inches in the test medium, then you could expect from 8-10 feet of penetration in animal tissue........Lots of factors would come into play here, and as we saw earlier, there are more calibers that can achieve 70 inches + than 416 that I have tested, so to say one caliber is king, is not really the point of the exercise. I never viewed this as a horse race......

To give you even more information, the entire reason for our study of solids was because in 2005 I developed the various .500 caliber B&Ms.... true .500....... At that time, there was no real Dangerous Game bullets available in .500, and certainly no solids. To accomplish my Mission for these cartridges I needed Solids! And a major study was launched, shooting 100s of different designs literally, and 1000s of rounds down range, tons of test medium, literally tons, used. Shooting and testing 2-3 days a week for months on end. In the end we had the CEB #13 Solid and at the same time North Fork was working along the same lines we were. North Fork and I were good friends as well in those days. And I came to depend more on solids, and realize just how important they were to one in the field for ALL ENDEAVORS, not just Elephant/Buffalo..........

Now, to the point...... 458 Caliber....... My main interest was my own 458 B&M, short little cartridge, 2.240 inch RUM case, WSM Winchester Action, 18-20 inch barrels. Efficiency plays a role with short/fact, if you have caliber you can take notice of it. My 458 B&M was equal to 458 Winchester in velocity, just I could do it with the shorter barrel. I always believed that the 458 Win should have been used with a 450 gr bullet........and thus my own 458 B&M would fall in that same category. When we started testing the 450 CEB Solids and North Forks on the range and then in the field, I never had a use for anything heavier. I was burning through buffalo, hippo and elephant like they were hot butter...... Why did I need more? In addition, the large 67%--68% meplats hit animals hard...... noticeably hard........ and the more velocity you had, the harder the hit. CEB and North Forks react very well with extra velocity as well, not only in hitting power up front, but increased depth of penetration.......... In fact, I actually told Dan when he wanted to make the 500 gr CEB #13s in .458 you don't need them, and I would not do them. LOL........ But I was not in the bullet selling business, and I ignored all you guys that want 500 gr .458s...... Hell I had mine, you were on your own. HEH....... So you see, from a personal standpoint and my mission, I really was not interested in the 500 gr .458s....... and even today, I load for a couple of friends with 458 Lott, they don't need a 500 gr either, so they get 450s too............. LOL..........

I think it was 2010 when my best friend and test partner took his 577 NE to Africa for elephant/buffalo with a 750 gr #13 Solid...... That was the first #13 Solid used on the Continent. And used with incredible success. I told him when he left that he would set foot on the Continent, with the most Effective and Powerful 577 NE in History. I believe I was correct on that point. I never paid much attention to the Ultra bores before proper bullets were made for them..... prior to this, they were dismal in performance........

 

[Frederik]

Wow, this thread really got interesting with a bunch of research but below is why I still want the andswer the OP question. 416 Rigby or 458 Win Mag.

I still vote for the 416 Rigby and if using a 450gr bullet it just outperforms the Win Mag but as read it might not outperform on penetration depending on bullet type.

416 Rigby, 450gr bullet @ 2300fps = 5287 ft/lbs
458 winmag 450gr bullet @2250 = 4837 ft/lbs
416 Rigby, 400gr bullet @ 2350fps = 4906 ft/lbs
458 Lott, 500gr bullet @ 2300fps = 5974 ft/lbs

https://shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php

 

[michael458]

I read about the 6,5 Ceb was tested in a buffalo by Boddington in a little Farquasohn rifle owned by

I think you can see the bullet in use here.

Btw which twist was it on the 6,5 you used to build the bullet around ?

Hi @PerH

I personally did not have much to do with the CEB 6.5 bullet, my friend commissioned most of that endeavor. Yes you are 100% correct it was the bullet used by Bill Jones on the hunt with Boddington, my friend was, or is friends with Bill, had the bullet made and loaded the ammo for Bill on that hunt.

I am not sure what the twist rate was............ The velocity used was 2300 fps, which is a good thing with the bullet being of solid copper, copper will flow at higher velocity and effect terminal penetration with these smaller calibers....... not so apparent in larger calibers, but small calibers it starts to be an issue above 2300 fps......... I would have done brass myself....

 

[PerH]

Hi @PerH

I personally did not have much to do with the CEB 6.5 bullet, my friend commissioned most of that endeavor. Yes you are 100% correct it was the bullet used by Bill Jones on the hunt with Boddington, my friend was, or is friends with Bill, had the bullet made and loaded the ammo for Bill on that hunt.

View attachment 639396

I am not sure what the twist rate was............ The velocity used was 2300 fps, which is a good thing with the bullet being of solid copper, copper will flow at higher velocity and effect terminal penetration with these smaller calibers....... not so apparent in larger calibers, but small calibers it starts to be an issue above 2300 fps......... I would have done brass myself....

That is a article I would liked to read as I have not found its name to search online for it .

2300 fps is a limit for many of smaller ones , can just look back on the 6,5 with Steyr ammo that Bell used .

 

[Northern Shooter]

Wow, this thread really got interesting with a bunch of research but below is why I still want the andswer the OP question. 416 Rigby or 458 Win Mag.

I still vote for the 416 Rigby and if using a 450gr bullet it just outperforms the Win Mag but as read it might not outperform on penetration depending on bullet type.

416 Rigby, 450gr bullet @ 2300fps = 5287 ft/lbs
458 winmag 450gr bullet @2250 = 4837 ft/lbs
416 Rigby, 400gr bullet @ 2350fps = 4906 ft/lbs
458 Lott, 500gr bullet @ 2300fps = 5974 ft/lbs

https://shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php

I believe those 450gr 458WM numbers are off since Barnes advertises their 450gr load at 2,240 fps producing 5,015 ft-lbs.

Also, although i'm sure that the 416 could be reloaded for 450gr @ 2,300 fps, all the 450gr factory loads i've seen are doing 2,100 fps - 2,150 fps.

 

[Hunt anything]

To stir the pot a little bit more. In one of Capsticks books he was going to track a lion that someone else’s client wounded and made it into a National Park. He said the lion had been shot with a .458 Win mag so it did not exit the lion. He claimed they would never exit a lion (soft points).

A lot of people don’t believe anything he wrote and some believe everything he wrote so take it for what you want.

 

[sgt_zim]

There is a very recent thread where the OP was pondering between a 416 and a 458 and there were many that posted that the 416 will out penetrate the 458…
Now the OP had said that he posted because he wanted both feedback but also because it’s fun to have these discussions. So I thought I’d follow up along the same lines in that let’s keep it fun and informative!

So it’s interesting to me to hear some here say that the 416 will out penetrate the 458? I’ve never heard that before, doesn’t mean it’s not true though?
Now the 416 Rigby and the 458 WinMag are very close in energy but the 458 has better SD, better momentum, and a larger meplat… Theoretically this should all lead to not only more penetration but much more damage along the way?
In real use, not theory, my PH told me without hesitation the 458 WinMag, both Dalton and York of the very know Dalton and York Safaris use the 458 WinMag, Kevin “Doctari” Robertson calls the 458 the “Gold Standard”, and Taylor wrote in his book that while the 416 is a much better all around cartridge it’s not a stopping rifle where the 458 is?
Now in all of this penetration is key! So can anyone show where the 416 which has less energy, less momentum, smaller meplat, and less weight can out penetrate the 458?
Let the fight begin lol

I was actually listening to Robertson and John McAdams discussing exclusively 40 cals recently. Robertson pointed out that a 430 or 450 gr bullet in 416 has a higher SD than a 500 gr 458, though at 2150 fps, it does give up some ground on energy to 458.

Ep 300: 40 Caliber Safari Cartridges With Kevin Robertson

Apple | iHeart | Pandora | Spotify | YouTube

thebiggamehuntingblog.com

 

[Cheesehead]

I was actually listening to Robertson and John McAdams discussing exclusively 40 cals recently. Robertson pointed out that a 430 or 450 gr bullet in 416 has a higher SD than a 500 gr 458, though at 2150 fps, it does give up some ground on energy to 458.

Ep 300: 40 Caliber Safari Cartridges With Kevin Robertson

Apple | iHeart | Pandora | Spotify | YouTube

thebiggamehuntingblog.com

those two have had some great discussions, very informative. Robertson seems to be a big believer in higher sectional density bullets. He also advocates for the use of 550gr bullets in the 458 Lott and 450 Rigby.

 

[sgt_zim]

those two have had some great discussions, very informative. Robertson seems to be a big believer in higher sectional density bullets. He also advocates for the use of 550gr bullets in the 458 Lott and 450 Rigby.

Amen. Robertson has convinced me that I need to go after a spotted hyena, "the poor man's leopard." LOL

I've taken to listening to McAdams podcasts on my now-frequent drives between Houston and Baton Rouge.

 

[Cheesehead]

Amen. Robertson has convinced me that I need to go after a spotted hyena, "the poor man's leopard." LOL

I've taken to listening to McAdams podcasts on my now-frequent drives between Houston and Baton Rouge.

Yeah, I stumbled upon his podcasts a few months ago and have been learning a lot!

 

[sgt_zim]

Wow, this thread really got interesting with a bunch of research but below is why I still want the andswer the OP question. 416 Rigby or 458 Win Mag.

I still vote for the 416 Rigby and if using a 450gr bullet it just outperforms the Win Mag but as read it might not outperform on penetration depending on bullet type.

416 Rigby, 450gr bullet @ 2300fps = 5287 ft/lbs
458 winmag 450gr bullet @2250 = 4837 ft/lbs
416 Rigby, 400gr bullet @ 2350fps = 4906 ft/lbs
458 Lott, 500gr bullet @ 2300fps = 5974 ft/lbs

https://shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php

So for 404J - you would go with NF 400 at 2300 or 430 gr at 2150? Or Hammer 400 gr?

Ele is well north of my budget, so thinking strictly for buffalo.

 

[intj]

Yes but he didn’t have data on the 458 for it… let’s not turn this into a this for that yeah? As I said it’s inconclusive at this point right?
I know that you are sold on the 416 and it’s a great choice!
But what we have confirmed is that the 458 makes a much bigger impression on game transferring more energy and shock while still penetrating as well or better!
So when you get definitive data that it out penetrates a 458 let me know…

I am sold on both the 458 and 416.

We already have data that shows the 416 out penetrates all else. Both Michael's tests and the penetration index. What we don't have is definitive data that shows the 458 out penetrates the 416. We only have our speculation that it will. And while I think it will, so far it hasn't.

We have also not confirmed anything about effect on animals. All we have is a bunch of guys offering opinions based on the opinions of those who have gone before us. I am fine with that, but it's much more "informed speculation" than proven fact.

 

[Jack Stevens]

The way Kevin Robertson puts it is "the 404 did all the work, and the 416 Rigby got all the glory." Many/most African conservation officers were issued 404 Jeffery.

Correct.

The usual theory with respect to its widespread use by the indigenous workers employed by African game departments is that the rifles were affordable because Jeffrey “had released the cartridge to the trade,” meaning anyone could make a .404-chambered rifle. That’s as opposed to the pricey proprietary DGR rifles of the day, like those from Rigby and Westley Richards.

While partly true, as well as that .404 ammo was generally cheaper (back then), it was the .404’s actual ballistics out of real-world rifle barrels that made it immensely popular. In the typical magazine rifle, the .404 imparted the mildest felt-recoil of any of the .400-class cartridges then available, and so skinny Africa game-dept employees could shoot it accurately, under stress, without flinching. No worse than a .375 H&H firing a .300grn load.

Folks like to quote “2150fps” as the defacto standard velocity for .404 ammo with a 400grn/.423” dia bullet, but that was never the case in the field from factory production barrels. The difference is because Jeffrey, Kynoch, et. al, used factory test-barrel fixtures of 26”-28” in length to derive “box-flap” velocity rather than real-world .404 rifle barrels which tended to be 22”, 23”, or 24” in length.

Kynoch is a good example … For their 400grn .404 ammo they list a m.v. of 2125fps as derived from a 28” factory test barrel. From a 24” rifle barrel, the given velocity is 1900fps. In other words, the mild recoil and shootability of .404 Jeff rifles is because actual m.v. in the field ranged from 1900fps to maybe 2100fps as a maximum. My own personal AHR-built .404J sports a 23” Douglas barrel. What muzzle velocity would that same Kynoch ammo make from that barrel?

Yet, with a 400grn bullet, the cartridge still killed all the big dangerous stuff, which led to Taylor’s famous observation that “THE elephant gun” was always a reference to Jeffrey’s .404 and to nothing else.

 

[Frederik]

I believe those 450gr 458WM numbers are off since Barnes advertises their 450gr load at 2,240 fps producing 5,015 ft-lbs.

Also, although i'm sure that the 416 could be reloaded for 450gr @ 2,300 fps, all the 450gr factory loads i've seen are doing 2,100 fps - 2,150 fps.

I was using reloading data not factory advertised loads that online calculator might be off nut I suspiect more that for advertising puposes they push the numbers a bit.

 

[Frederik]

So for 404J - you would go with NF 400 at 2300 or 430 gr at 2150? Or Hammer 400 gr?

Ele is well north of my budget, so thinking strictly for buffalo.

For buffalo 400gr is good enough I was using they 450gr bullet in 416 to show that it is a good performer.