416 Rigby vs 458 WinMag a civil discussion

[intj]

Sounds like a fun test! If you have the ability you should do one with just Gelatin and one with a 3” block of hardwood? Something like a thick butcher block?

And if you get to do the test I’ll bet you $20 that the 458 wins! Just a friendly bet so one of us can buy the other some beer of their choice for the fun of the debate!?!?

Except that I think that when I get the 458/500 to enough velocity it too will win.....

 

[CZDiesel]

Except that I think that when I get the 458/500 to enough velocity it too will win.....

Dang, I was looking forward to the Pacifico’s lol Still looking forward to the results…

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I shot this big eland last fall with a 416 Rigby and 400 gr cup point solid from NF...shot in the tail at 20 yards and was stopped in the skin on the shoulder....full penetration end to end...way over 72"...however long a big eland is.

View attachment 639846

Chile, a classic Texas Heart shot? Well done brother. Nice Eland. Many interesting comments on this thread.

When I began my trip down the Big Game rabbit hole, I wanted a 416 Rigby for my DG rifle. But, I was having difficulty finding what I wanted at the time and within my budget. Plus the available factory ammo options did not impress me. Still, I am a student of ballistics and I intuitively, felt that the 416 would be a bit more effective than the 375 on DG as well as more effective on longer shots on large PG at ranges like 200y than the rainbow trajectory of the 458 at those distances. What I ended up with was a pair of 375HH's and a 458WM.

The more I have studied the issue, the less I think I need a 416. Not that it is ineffective. In fact if I had bought the 416 I probably could have done with one rifle what I now require two to accomplish the same mission. Some of the comments in this thread hit a chord with me:

416 vs 458 using only solids on very large DG like Ele or Buff
1.) Neither bullet is going to expand
2.) 458 is 10% larger in diameter so the permanent wound channel will be larger with solids
3.) 458 has 25% more mass than the 416 assuming 400g vs 500g so it has more mass but may or may not have more energy depending on MV or impact vel
4.) The big 458 may lose velocity and energy faster due to the big hole it must punch in the air down range. Therefore, any advantage it may have in certain situations may be lost if deployed at longer ranges.
5.) At close range 20-50y the 458 might hold a small energy advantage but at longer ranges 50-100y the 416 may begin to catch up or in some cases eclipse the larger slug. I am not going to do the math to support this since there are so many variables that I suspect that depending on the scenario we could support either conclusion.
6.) Solids (and likely expanding bullets too) will penetrate 70% or more in animal flesh than in typical test mediums. That supports my own observations and beliefs. Example: On a recent safari I took five animals with a 30cal 180g bonded bullet that penetrates 24" and expands to 2.5-2.7x in ballistic gel. That is 0.75" to 0.81" These produced five one-shot kills and every case was a thru and thru penetration of the animal. None ran over 60y and most dropped right away. Only one was a spine shot. I shot another with a 375HH using a Barnes TSX that took three shots. One was a thru and thru and the other two were recovered and expanded to 0.72" and 0.81". That was interesting since it matched the estimated expansion of the 30cals I used.
7.) With solids only assuming that both the 416 and 458 have enough momentum to shoot entirely thru or nearly thru any animal you might aim it at, it is pretty clear that the 458 would make a slightly larger permanent wound channel. In that scenario the 458 should hold a small advantage.

Now, here is a question to ponder say for application on Cape Buffalo for example. If I shot a buff with a 375HH using TSX controlled expansion bullets that opened up to 2.0x diameter it would drill a roughly 3/4" permanent wound channel. But, it is not going to penetrate as far as a 458 solid that makes a .458" hole (in the case of cup point solids that hole might be a bit larger?) Assuming that both have enough momentum to penetrate into and thru the vitals and out the other side or nearly so, which is the better choice? Similar comparisons of 416 could be made. The slower 458 is not likely to expand nearly so much if you use a TSX type bullet due to its slower speed. But it will expand some. How much? I rarely see examples of 458's expanding more than to 3/4". So, if I punch a 3/4" hole with a 458 and a 3/4" hole with a 375, which animal will die faster? I would offer the hypothesis that as long as they both penetrate deep enough, the results would be very similar. This may be why at least one data set I have seen on here claimed that the 375 had the best one-shot-kill percentage on Buffalo than any other DG cartridge. That data set lacked a lot of things and was not a scientific test but was interesting. It led me to believe that if we use a rifle that penetrates enough on the prey of choice, it will get the job done. It also led me to believe that lots of the failures of the bigger dbl rifle calibers were not due to the cartridge's short comings but due more likely to the failures of the clients to hit well, what they aimed at, when shooting at marginal distances with iron or red dot sights. Sometimes bigger may not be better. Keep in mind, I have seen a Cape buff drop in 15y after two rapid shots from a 375HH and I have seen another that absorbed three shots from a 375 and then three more from a 458 and then two more from the 375 before it died. My point is that even using the rods of God, some critters can be hard to kill.

Back to the question at hand. The only serious advantage of the 458 or the 416 when using solids is its ability to penetrate deeper in more situations than some of its smaller brothers. If both will penetrate thru and thru an ele, then the one that punches the bigger hole should be the better choice. Still both should do the job. I could kill an elephant with a 375HH. But, If I were ever to hunt an ele, it would be with a larger rifle using a Woodleigh or North Fork cup point solid and not the 375. Why? Because sometimes bigger IS better, lol. And that is why this thread will struggle to reach any definative conclusions because the case can accurately be made for both sides of the argument. Have fun.

 

[Green Chile]

My eland shot end to end was a follow up from the first shot, which tumbled after hitting a stick or something we didn't see. We tracked the eland for several hours to get the 2nd shot and that happened when he jumped up in front of us like the world's biggest rabbit. Only target I had was his back end.

On 375 and 416 TSX, I usually get exits on buff. Have never lost one to a TSX.

 

[grand veneur]

Chile, a classic Texas Heart shot? Well done brother. Nice Eland. Many interesting comments on this thread.

When I began my trip down the Big Game rabbit hole, I wanted a 416 Rigby for my DG rifle. But, I was having difficulty finding what I wanted at the time and within my budget. Plus the available factory ammo options did not impress me. Still, I am a student of ballistics and I intuitively, felt that the 416 would be a bit more effective than the 375 on DG as well as more effective on longer shots on large PG at ranges like 200y than the rainbow trajectory of the 458 at those distances. What I ended up with was a pair of 375HH's and a 458WM.

The more I have studied the issue, the less I think I need a 416. Not that it is ineffective. In fact if I had bought the 416 I probably could have done with one rifle what I now require two to accomplish the same mission. Some of the comments in this thread hit a chord with me:

416 vs 458 using only solids on very large DG like Ele or Buff
1.) Neither bullet is going to expand
2.) 458 is 10% larger in diameter so the permanent wound channel will be larger with solids
3.) 458 has 25% more mass than the 416 assuming 400g vs 500g so it has more mass but may or may not have more energy depending on MV or impact vel
4.) The big 458 may lose velocity and energy faster due to the big hole it must punch in the air down range. Therefore, any advantage it may have in certain situations may be lost if deployed at longer ranges.
5.) At close range 20-50y the 458 might hold a small energy advantage but at longer ranges 50-100y the 416 may begin to catch up or in some cases eclipse the larger slug. I am not going to do the math to support this since there are so many variables that I suspect that depending on the scenario we could support either conclusion.
6.) Solids (and likely expanding bullets too) will penetrate 70% or more in animal flesh than in typical test mediums. That supports my own observations and beliefs. Example: On a recent safari I took five animals with a 30cal 180g bonded bullet that penetrates 24" and expands to 2.5-2.7x in ballistic gel. That is 0.75" to 0.81" These produced five one-shot kills and every case was a thru and thru penetration of the animal. None ran over 60y and most dropped right away. Only one was a spine shot. I shot another with a 375HH using a Barnes TSX that took three shots. One was a thru and thru and the other two were recovered and expanded to 0.72" and 0.81". That was interesting since it matched the estimated expansion of the 30cals I used.
7.) With solids only assuming that both the 416 and 458 have enough momentum to shoot entirely thru or nearly thru any animal you might aim it at, it is pretty clear that the 458 would make a slightly larger permanent wound channel. In that scenario the 458 should hold a small advantage.

Now, here is a question to ponder say for application on Cape Buffalo for example. If I shot a buff with a 375HH using TSX controlled expansion bullets that opened up to 2.0x diameter it would drill a roughly 3/4" permanent wound channel. But, it is not going to penetrate as far as a 458 solid that makes a .458" hole (in the case of cup point solids that hole might be a bit larger?) Assuming that both have enough momentum to penetrate into and thru the vitals and out the other side or nearly so, which is the better choice? Similar comparisons of 416 could be made. The slower 458 is not likely to expand nearly so much if you use a TSX type bullet due to its slower speed. But it will expand some. How much? I rarely see examples of 458's expanding more than to 3/4". So, if I punch a 3/4" hole with a 458 and a 3/4" hole with a 375, which animal will die faster? I would offer the hypothesis that as long as they both penetrate deep enough, the results would be very similar. This may be why at least one data set I have seen on here claimed that the 375 had the best one-shot-kill percentage on Buffalo than any other DG cartridge. That data set lacked a lot of things and was not a scientific test but was interesting. It led me to believe that if we use a rifle that penetrates enough on the prey of choice, it will get the job done. It also led me to believe that lots of the failures of the bigger dbl rifle calibers were not due to the cartridge's short comings but due more likely to the failures of the clients to hit well, what they aimed at, when shooting at marginal distances with iron or red dot sights. Sometimes bigger may not be better. Keep in mind, I have seen a Cape buff drop in 15y after two rapid shots from a 375HH and I have seen another that absorbed three shots from a 375 and then three more from a 458 and then two more from the 375 before it died. My point is that even using the rods of God, some critters can be hard to kill.

Back to the question at hand. The only serious advantage of the 458 or the 416 when using solids is its ability to penetrate deeper in more situations than some of its smaller brothers. If both will penetrate thru and thru an ele, then the one that punches the bigger hole should be the better choice. Still both should do the job. I could kill an elephant with a 375HH. But, If I were ever to hunt an ele, it would be with a larger rifle using a Woodleigh or North Fork cup point solid and not the 375. Why? Because sometimes bigger IS better, lol. And that is why this thread will struggle to reach any definative conclusions because the case can accurately be made for both sides of the argument. Have fun.

You seem to talk a lot about solids in your post. By the use of solids with big bore calibers the impact velocity certainly does not play the same role as with expanding SP bullets. On the contrary; the faster a solid hits and the deeper the penetration can be, assuming it is a good stabilized premium bullet that will neither deform nor disassemble by impact. It is certain that the bigger the caliber and the bigger the wound channel caused by the solid will be. That's why in my opinion you can renounce of the use of SP bullets from caliber 50 and up and only use solids for shooting all big game, elephants are always shot with such bullets anyway. All this is but a different topic and in my opinion not what is meant when comparing the cartridge 416 Rigby and the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

You seem to talk a lot about solids in your post. By the use of solids with big bore calibers the impact velocity certainly does not play the same role as with expanding SP bullets. On the contrary; the faster a solid hits and the deeper the penetration can be, assuming it is a good stabilized premium bullet that will neither deform nor disassemble by impact. It is certain that the bigger the caliber and the bigger the wound channel caused by the solid will be. That's why in my opinion you can renounce of the use of SP bullets from caliber 50 and up and only use solids for shooting all big game, elephants are always shot with such bullets anyway. All this is but a different topic and in my opinion not what is meant when comparing the cartridge 416 Rigby and the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum.

Regarding solids, I agree that solids only for Elephant do apply as well as for Rhino. They might also be the best medicine for follow up shots on Buffalo after the first or 2nd shot even though I know PH's who would not require them for Buffalo at all. Solids may also be the best choice for use in the PH's stopper rifle depending of course on what the DG prey might me. My main reason for reference to solids was only to highlight that sometimes the bigger is better theory does apply while when comparing the two calibers using a premium expanding bullet such as TSX, Nosler Partition or Swift A-frame, the smaller and faster 416 may in many cases punch a hole just as big as or even bigger than the slower, heavier 458. I guess the only conclusion I could come to was that while both could get the job done the specific application would determine which was best for each case and neither would be best for all situations. Also, the differences might be very small in many cases. If others disagree, I am all ears. I do not have all the answers and am not a fanboy of either. I like the exchange since it leads all of us to do some critical thinking about our own choices.

 

[ldmay375]

There is a very recent thread where the OP was pondering between a 416 and a 458 and there were many that posted that the 416 will out penetrate the 458…
Now the OP had said that he posted because he wanted both feedback but also because it’s fun to have these discussions. So I thought I’d follow up along the same lines in that let’s keep it fun and informative!

So it’s interesting to me to hear some here say that the 416 will out penetrate the 458? I’ve never heard that before, doesn’t mean it’s not true though?
Now the 416 Rigby and the 458 WinMag are very close in energy but the 458 has better SD, better momentum, and a larger meplat… Theoretically this should all lead to not only more penetration but much more damage along the way?
In real use, not theory, my PH told me without hesitation the 458 WinMag, both Dalton and York of the very know Dalton and York Safaris use the 458 WinMag, Kevin “Doctari” Robertson calls the 458 the “Gold Standard”, and Taylor wrote in his book that while the 416 is a much better all around cartridge it’s not a stopping rifle where the 458 is?
Now in all of this penetration is key! So can anyone show where the 416 which has less energy, less momentum, smaller meplat, and less weight can out penetrate the 458?
Let the fight begin lol

Excellent topic.

Actually, I have seen the statements of the 416 out penetrating the 458, 375 out penetrating the 416, and 338 out penetrating the 375, etc for decades. Magazine articles, forums, and books have contained this.
I think lots of the repeats are parroting without giving consideration to the bullets used. Though, some did actually give credit to the actual design & construction of "the bullet" used. Which I think most fixated on the caliber and cartridge and overlooked the bullet references. Even many of those that personal use has formed their opinion.

I am in the camp of, it depends. I can grasp the identical design and construction of the smaller diameter at a certain Impact-speed out penetrating a larger diameter of the same at a certain speed. Those particular Impact-speeds are variables to me. Are they determined by fps in relationship to bullet diameter percentages to be on the equal ?
There are cartridges that can step up the velocities of both calibers. The mechanically safe hand loads in 416 Rigby and 458 Winchester can have fairly significant differences when compared to some of their factory loads.

I am still at it-depends.

 

[CZDiesel]

Excellent topic.

Actually, I have seen the statements of the 416 out penetrating the 458, 375 out penetrating the 416, and 338 out penetrating the 375, etc for decades. Magazine articles, forums, and books have contained this.
I think lots of the repeats are parroting without giving consideration to the bullets used. Though, some did actually give credit to the actual design & construction of "the bullet" used. Which I think most fixated on the caliber and cartridge and overlooked the bullet references. Even many of those that personal use has formed their opinion.

I am in the camp of, it depends. I can grasp the identical design and construction of the smaller diameter at a certain Impact-speed out penetrating a larger diameter of the same at a certain speed. Those particular Impact-speeds are variables to me. Are they determined by fps in relationship to bullet diameter percentages to be on the equal ?
There are cartridges that can step up the velocities of both calibers. The mechanically safe hand loads in 416 Rigby and 458 Winchester can have fairly significant differences when compared to some of their factory loads.

I am still at it-depends.

This is Roy Weatherby’s philosophy and I’m not sure it could very well be true? But for expanding it can have the opposite effect depending on the bullet used?

 

[ldmay375]

Agree. An expanding bullet has a lot more potential variables, in my opinion.

 

[ldmay375]

This is Roy Weatherby’s philosophy and I’m not sure it could very well be true? But for expanding it can have the opposite effect depending on the bullet used?

This is some testing tidbits from George Hoffman's book. The Mike LaGrange test referenced, type of bullet and test material are not specified by George. Out of curiosity, I have a copy of Mike's book ordered.

 

[Riflecrank]

I think Michael.458 favors the .458 with a 400 grain CEB

I prefer the recoil of the .458 over the recoil velocity of the .416

I think he favors the 450-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid.
I think he got those special, long-nosed 400-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solids made
because I pestered him into it.
Nevertheless, the 450-grainer at +2350 fps from a .458 WinMag with a COL of no more than 3.36"
will surely do anything needing doing.
I load the 400-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid (0.700" nose) to a COL of 3.350" in Norma .458 WinMag brass
and easily get 2500 fps from a 24" barrel, with BENCHMARK.
It may not penetrate as deeply as the 450-grainer, but it will smack pretty good.
Pressure may be over 60,000 psi, but no worse than a SAAMI .458 Lott MAP is my SWAG.

 

[hoytcanon]

It's hard to wade through all of the conjecture in this thread... it always amazes me how gun nutters love splitting hairs. Load the right bullet to the right speed and neither of these are lacking, nor are a hundred others.

 

[CZDiesel]

It's hard to wade through all of the conjecture in this thread... it always amazes me how gun nutters love splitting hairs. Load the right bullet to the right speed and neither of these are lacking, nor are a hundred others.

I completely agree! That the 458WinMag is better

 

[Jefferry404]

Wow, tough question. I like the Rigby for the history
And anecdotal performance on game. Seems a bit more practical to me. On the other hand, I admire Winchester for giving us the 458! I have both.

 

[DG&Doubles]

The 410Gr bullet of the .416 Rigby (traveling at 2370 FPS) will outpenetrate the 500Gr bullet of the .458 Winchester Magnum (traveling at 2130 FPS). But the larger diameter bullet of the .458 caliber will impart a greater shock to the game’s central nervous system (assuming that the velocity is still sufficient).

The exception to this rule, is when you’re hunting the great cats. The higher velocity calibers clearly crumple them better due to cats possessing a highly developed central nervous system. So a .416 Rigby is a better choice than a .458 Winchester Magnum but a .458 Lott or .450 Rigby Magnum is better still.

Habib knows ballistics. 450 Rigby is chefs kiss, un-matched in regards to penetration on thick skinned Dangerous Game. Kevin Doctari Robertsons articles and studies on it are quite interesting for the gun nerd!