416 Rigby vs 458 WinMag a civil discussion

[TTundra]

This is great info! I hope others can shed more light! Thank you!!!

Yes he did as most in that era did, the 416 Rigby was almost unheard of and the 458WinMag didn’t exist for much of his hunting career.
But when the 458 came out he fully endorsed it!

Just curious, are you asking about the 458Win or is there a 458 B&M?

There has been a lot of research done on the 416 B&M and 458 B&M. Probably more done on the 416 and 458 in modern projectiles side by side than any if the large manufactures in both test media and in field.

Michael's testing over the years is likely one of the best resources for 416 vs 458 projectiles albeit not 416 Rigby vs 458 Win

 

[Green Chile]

Now the 416 Rigby and the 458 WinMag are very close in energy but the 458 has better SD, better momentum, and a larger meplat…

How is this statement made with no mention of bullet weight or velocity? Are you talking about factory loadings of 400 grains in 416 and 500 grains in 458? There are also many factors of bullet shape/design that contribute to the answer.

 

[CZDiesel]

How is this statement made with no mention of bullet weight or velocity? Are you talking about factory loadings of 400 grains in 416 and 500 grains in 458? There are also many factors of bullet shape/design that contribute to the answer.

You are right, I should have included that, my mistake. I guess I just assumed that everyone would take it as the standard for each, 400gr at 2400ftps for the 416 and 500gr at 2150 for the 458. Apologies for not stating that…
And yes there are many bullet designs and shapes but both are so common that the offerings should be the same for both. Again I assumed that everyone would think shooting the same bullets as in both shooting the Hornady DGS or Custom CEB or whatever…

 

[CZDiesel]

There has been a lot of research done on the 416 B&M and 458 B&M. Probably more done on the 416 and 458 in modern projectiles side by side than any if the large manufactures in both test media and in field.

Michael's testing over the years is likely one of the best resources for 416 vs 458 projectiles albeit not 416 Rigby vs 458 Win

I hope he chimes in!

 

[Sarg]

Interesting to know which has better penetration, the common thought is the .416 400gr out of the main .416s was superior to .458Win with .500gr but I suspect not the .450Rigby or Weatherby ?

I have had old factory Winchester.458Win White box 500gr or 510gr solid go in the Ass & exit out the nose of a wounded fleeing Buffalo, I was a little surprised at that myself & snapped a couple of photos.

Could only be my.458Win as hunter was using .338Rem Ultra Mag !

 

[intj]

Hey!!! My thread on indecision between the 416 Rem and 458 Lott was civil. Just sayin'.........

I think that @Mark A Ouellette nails it. The reason that both theory and experience favor the 416/400 at 2400 fps for penetration is because the smaller frontal area requires less force to penetrate vs the larger calibers. Even though the 458/500 has a higher SD, the SD isn't high enough with a 500 grainer at 2150 fps to overcome the lesser resistance and momentum of the 416/400.

Remember, PO Ackley showed us that a 40 grain bullet from a 220 Swift would punch a hole in armor plating where a 168 grain 30-06 armor piercing round would not.

What I want to know is if a 458/500 at 2300 fps will out penetrate a 416/400 at 2400 fps. With well designed solids, the penetration should increase with velocity, at least to a point. I don't know what that point is. I would think that that given the proper velocity, and 458/500 would out penetrate a 416/400. But I don't know.

I do remember hearing about how the 460 Wby shooting a 500 grainer at 2700 for had poor penetration, but that could have been due to poor bullet design back in the day.

 

[grand veneur]

The SD does not only play a role in the depth of penetration of a bullet. Other parameters are also important, especially the impact velocity. In our case the bullet design and the SD of the bullets can be seen as fairly comparable. For this reason the impact velocity will make the difference and the cartridge 416 Rigby offers more velocity than the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum.

The cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum is ahead of the cartridge 416 Rigby when it comes to all of this. Penetration can be, due to a high impact velocity, sometime not as good by using old classic SP bullets, but there is a great shock effect that compensates for a lot.

 

[michael458]

I think Michael.458 favors the .458 with a 400 grain CEB

@michael458 would be the one to confirm here.

I believe I have seen data on the 416 B&M going 60+ inches of penetration and the 458 getting 40+. That said, I'm sure he has done tests on the dame media and can offer more controlled results.

The Origin ...........

So it’s interesting to me to hear some here say that the 416 will out penetrate the 458?

OK, so far, this thread leaves much to be desired....... I assume we are talking about solids.......I see SD (Sectional Density) mentioned several times...... but I see little about bullet design and other 7 Factors of Solid Terminal Performance. Just to make a statement that 416 out penetrates 458 is so broad that it is basically meaningless, sorry...... How many different designs of Solids are out there? How many different Nose Profile designs? Meplat Sizes? And much more.........My Apologies up front, but this is not going to be a "short answer", not if you really wish to understand the dynamics involved. If I merely state to you, that it is false that 416 out penetrates 458, then you are going to want to know why, correct? If I say, yes, it will out penetrate 458, then the 458 people are going to want to know, Why? Correct?........... So lets dive in, and find out WHY..............

But First, you are going have to read and understand the 8 Known Factors of Solid Terminal Performance;

There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber
Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........

#2 Nose Profile
There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.


#5 Radius Edge of Meplat
We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......


All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........



#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........

#7 Barrel Twist Rate
Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......


#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............



These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................

 

[CZDiesel]

Hey!!! My thread on indecision between the 416 Rem and 458 Lott was civil. Just sayin'.........

I think that @Mark A Ouellette nails it. The reason that both theory and experience favor the 416/400 at 2400 fps for penetration is because the smaller frontal area requires less force to penetrate vs the larger calibers. Even though the 458/500 has a higher SD, the SD isn't high enough with a 500 grainer at 2150 fps to overcome the lesser resistance and momentum of the 416/400.

Remember, PO Ackley showed us that a 40 grain bullet from a 220 Swift would punch a hole in armor plating where a 168 grain 30-06 armor piercing round would not.

What I want to know is if a 458/500 at 2300 fps will out penetrate a 416/400 at 2400 fps. With well designed solids, the penetration should increase with velocity, at least to a point. I don't know what that point is. I would think that that given the proper velocity, and 458/500 would out penetrate a 416/400. But I don't know.

I do remember hearing about how the 460 Wby shooting a 500 grainer at 2700 for had poor penetration, but that could have been due to poor bullet design back in the day.

There is no doubt that a 458 at 2300 will out penetrate a 416 at 2400! And I haven’t seen anything in this discussion yet that shows a 416 at 2400 can out penetrate a 458 at 2150!
Here is Kevin “Doctari” Robertson speaking on the subject and though he doesn’t get into specific penetration he does talk a lot about a 500gr round at 2150 being the magic formula!

The SD does not only play a role in the depth of penetration of a bullet. Other parameters are also important, especially the impact velocity. In our case the bullet design and the SD of the bullets can be seen as fairly comparable. For this reason the impact velocity will make the difference and the cartridge 416 Rigby offers more velocity than the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum.

The cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum is ahead of the cartridge 416 Rigby when it comes to all of this. Penetration can be, due to a high impact velocity, sometime not as good by using old classic SP bullets, but there is a great shock effect that compensates for a lot.

Robertson talks about a 460 that shoots through three Buff with one shot in this interview and this had to be before most modern bullet tech?

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

OK, so far, this thread leaves much to be desired....... I assume we are talking about solids.......I see SD (Sectional Density) mentioned several times...... but I see little about bullet design and other 7 Factors of Solid Terminal Performance. Just to make a statement that 416 out penetrates 458 is so broad that it is basically meaningless, sorry...... How many different designs of Solids are out there? How many different Nose Profile designs? Meplat Sizes?

Hi @michael458 Glad you joined in to share your decades of experiance!
I did however state not once but twice that the projectiles must be the same shape and material for comparison. You are correct that I should have stated this is for solid bullets.

If all else is equal such as energy and bullet shape and material, the smaller diameter bullet will encounter LESS resistance to it penetrating.

Me, no John Taylor long ago figured that all else being equal (energy and bullet design and material), the 416 will penetrate deeper but a 458 will transfer energy quicker, i.e. more energy transfered to animal per unit of measure of travel.

I was comparing apples to apples.

 

[michael458]

OK, which 416 bullet are you talking about? What 458 Bullet are you talking about? You must realize that All Solids are Not Created Equal.................

Are you beginning to see some issues with such a broad statement as 416 vs 458.....

Now you will not see any Cutting Edge or North Fork 500 gr Solids tested. I have never tested any. For all my purposes in the field, I always used thr 450 gr versions for my rifles and cartridges, the 450s are so good, I never personally saw a reason to consider the 500 gr bullets, and in fact, in the beginning advised CEB not to even worry with 500s........ But, the wiser decision was to have a 500 gr Solid on the menu, because some people just can't understand or admit, or believe that 500 gr is just not required or needed in 458 caliber, regardless of cartridge.

This post introduced you to many different designs of Solids, its purpose was to show you that All Solids are not created equal, and that such a broad statement as 416 vs 458 has little meaning, without more definition.

In the next post on this subject we will study 416 more in depth, we will look at different velocities and different twist rates, which have a big effect in 416 caliber, more so than 458 caliber, and I will tell you why............

 

[CZDiesel]

The Origin ...........



OK, so far, this thread leaves much to be desired....... I assume we are talking about solids.......I see SD (Sectional Density) mentioned several times...... but I see little about bullet design and other 7 Factors of Solid Terminal Performance. Just to make a statement that 416 out penetrates 458 is so broad that it is basically meaningless, sorry...... How many different designs of Solids are out there? How many different Nose Profile designs? Meplat Sizes? And much more.........My Apologies up front, but this is not going to be a "short answer", not if you really wish to understand the dynamics involved. If I merely state to you, that it is false that 416 out penetrates 458, then you are going to want to know why, correct? If I say, yes, it will out penetrate 458, then the 458 people are going to want to know, Why? Correct?........... So lets dive in, and find out WHY..............

But First, you are going have to read and understand the 8 Known Factors of Solid Terminal Performance;

There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber
Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........

#2 Nose Profile
There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.


#5 Radius Edge of Meplat
We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......


All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........



#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........

#7 Barrel Twist Rate
Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......


#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............



These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................

First I’d like to say that your information is incredible! And for bullet tech very informative and important…
But you say “the thread leaves much to be desired” and although you give great bullet tech you didn’t give an opinion on the question?
And it was already established that both the 416 and the 458 would be shooting the same bullet, ie CEB or Hornady DGS, which I caught you call a shame, but that’s a different conversation for a different time…
Now if the 458WinMag is shooting a reputable 500gr round at 2150 and the 416 is shooting the same round at 2400 what is your opinion on the penetration?

 

[michael458]

But you say “the thread leaves much to be desired” and although you give great bullet tech you didn’t give an opinion on the question?

.My Apologies up front, but this is not going to be a "short answer", not if you really wish to understand the dynamics involved. If I merely state to you, that it is false that 416 out penetrates 458, then you are going to want to know why, correct? If I say, yes, it will out penetrate 458, then the 458 people are going to want to know, Why? Correct?........... So lets dive in, and find out WHY..............

And it was already established that both the 416 and the 458 would be shooting the same bullet, ie CEB or Hornady DGS, which I caught you call a shame,

Apology, I missed that somewhere further down you specified the SAME BULLET. I cannot give you a CEB Comparison, as stated above, I have never tested the 500 gr CEBs..... in fact, never even seen one. And I cannot give you a direct comparison for Hornady either. And I am not sure what you mean "I caught you call a shame"........... ? But neither here nor there........

I can give you a direct comparison with Barnes Flat Nose Solids however. But even then, I am not quite sure it is a definitive answer that some might be looking for, but I would think pretty damn close....

Now, concerning the exact Statement that 416 will out penetrate 458........ It would appear NOT at least in the case of Barnes Flat Nose Solids........... While not exactly what you are looking for, 2400 and 2150, my test was higher velocity in both cases.......

 

[CZDiesel]

Thank you for the time and comprehensive knowledge, sincerely! I know you take your craft seriously and devote serious time to perfect it!
So thanks for the input and knowledge

 

[Creigh]

I don't have a dog in this fight, personally I've a 404J that I just received last week and been to the range once so far. I'm ecstatic.

Just looking at the recoil numbers tho,
.404J 400gr @ 2150 fps = 41 ft-lbs
.416 Rigby 400gr @ 2400 fps = 58.1 ft-lbs
.458 WM 500gr @ 2100 fps = 62.3 ft-lbs

Not sure how up to date this info is

Rifle Recoil Table

But that tells me the .404 has some room for increased speed and probably would be as effective as the .416 (not that I'm making that case here), but all in all I have to wonder about what the extra 100 gr and 300 fps are buying you in the .458 where it really counts. If you have the penetration you have a DG rifle.
Conversely, Mr Robertson says 2100 fps is the golden number, what does loading to 2400 fps on the .416 get you? You could lower the recoil number and stay effective.

I'm not unsympathetic to the meplat percentages. In an attempt to answer my own question, logic says that the higher speed/lower energy of the .416 400gr can have a higher percent and achieve the desired penetration, which I assume that's where the development of the ammunition has gone, and the lower speed/higher energy .458 500gr with a lower percentage for the same effect. If all things attempt to be equally effective, the variables one can play with should be tweaked with that in mind.

So I'm not thinking in terms of speed or weight or energy, I'm thinking in terms of having the correct effectiveness for the machine I'm holding.

Or I'm overthinking it [snort].

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Apology, I missed that somewhere further down you specified the SAME BULLET. I cannot give you a CEB Comparison, as stated above, I have never tested the 500 gr CEBs.....

Now, concerning the exact Statement that 416 will out penetrate 458........ It would appear NOT at least in the case of Barnes Flat Nose Solids........... While not exactly what you are looking for, 2400 and 2150, my test was higher velocity in both cases.......

@Michael 458 Your data is impressive!

While not the latest generation of solid bullets, the Barnes Banded Solids are probably representative of solids used in most recent years. The newer design CEB and North Fork may yield different results. Maybe…

.416: 2430 fps impact velocity for 400 grain with energy of 5246 ft lbs
Results: 60 inches penetration

.458: 2148 fps impact velocity for 500 grain with energy of 5123 ft lbs (97.6% of 5246)
Results: 66 inches penetration

Your above test results disproves my hypothesis. Well done Sir!

 

[michael458]

Hi @michael458 Glad you joined in to share your decades of experiance!
I did however state not once but twice that the projectiles must be the same shape and material for comparison. You are correct that I should have stated this is for solid bullets.

Hi Mark.......... again I apologize, I did not read everything in the thread, just the first posts and the post where I am mentioned........ and its a good thing that some of you mention the other various factors involved.....

416 caliber is more sensitive than 458 caliber with twist rates and velocity. Even a very well designed Solid, such as the Cutting Edge or modern North Forks, 400 gr is just not quite 100% stable at 1:14 or slower twist rates. Depth and straight line penetration can be enhanced at higher velocities with the slower twist rate.

Ever heard that "Size Matters"........ I believe in the case of solids, size does matter especially concerning meplat size. Lets look at the actual size of a 416 CEB Meplat at 67% of caliber, it measures .278 inches actual............ the same CEB .458 caliber Solid at 67% meplat of caliber measures .307 inches actual.

When these Flat Nose solids begin terminal penetration in aqueous medium they become essentially Front End Drive......... The Front end steers the bullet and if the design is proper and other related factors are correct, then it remains dead straight for the duration of penetration.

I have tested these type solids in barrels that have no rifling, essentially smooth bores, and have found that above .458 caliber, these bullets can self stabilize themselves to on average 90% of the total depth of penetration, no engraving at all...... which is incredible to say the least. I have not done so in .416 caliber, however I do not believe that 416 can do that. We have stability issues with 416 with slower twist rates, much less no rifling or engraving at all....... I believe this is because of "Actual Meplat Size"....... Which seems logical to me.

A friend and test partner was curious about twist rates in .416. My 416s all had 1:14 twist rates, 416 B&M and 416 Remingtons, I am not sure what the one Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby is. He built a 416 B&M with a 1:12 twist barrel and we tested the stability of a 400 CEB #13 Solid.............

And we also did a test in 416 Remington at higher velocity, at 1:14 twist.......

Dramatic increase in stability between 1;14 and 1;12 twists...... as you see. We also see that higher velocity also increased stability in a 1;14 twist........

in .458 caliber + with proper designs Twist rate is not as important...... twist rate is important with less than desirable designs.......

And, FYI BTW........ 76-78 inches of penetration in my test medium is the deepest that I have seen regardless of caliber.......... But, I do not believe that this is absolute proof that 416 will out penetrate 458........ I think more factors are involved and become more important ............ I have had a few others hit over that 70 inch threshold............

Another friend of mine was a 6.5 fan and had this oddity we tested once ..........

And later was instrumental in the design of this bullet, which I never tested.......... but think it would most certainly be interesting........

 

[Jack Stevens]

Yes he did as most in that era did, the 416 Rigby was almost unheard of and the 458WinMag didn’t exist for much of his hunting career.
But when the 458 came out he fully endorsed it!

The 458WM wasn’t introduced until the mid- or late 1950s, as I recall. Way too late to have seen use during the so-called ‘Golden Age’ of 20th Century safaris (1910-1940, roughly).

The dominant .400-class cartridge back then was always the .404 Jeff, with the 416 Rigby and maybe the .425WR following well-behind.

With a 400grn bullet, real-world velocity of the .404 Jeff ammo of that era (out of most ‘working rifles’, not factory test barrels) was closer to 2000-2050fps rather than the 2150fps that is traditionally cited. Regardless, that’s very mild recoil (comparatively) for a .400-class DGR round and yet it still put the Big Five down along with everything else it was ever aimed at.

The only serious problem back then for the .404 Jeff, which also plagued its other .400-class siblings, was bullet tech - in terms of materials and construction - to hold up on impact and penetrate even at those velocities. Nothing like the DG projectiles we have available today.

 

[michael458]

@Michael 458 Your data is impressive!

While not the latest generation of solid bullets, the Barnes Banded Solids are probably representative of solids used in most recent years. The newer design CEB and North Fork may yield different results. Maybe…

.416: 2430 fps impact velocity for 400 grain with energy of 5246 ft lbs
Results: 60 inches penetration

.458: 2148 fps impact velocity for 500 grain with energy of 5123 ft lbs (97.6% of 5246)
Results: 66 inches penetration

Your above test results disproves my hypothesis. Well done Sir!

Mark..............

You make an excellent point that the CEB/North Forks might yield a different result..........

Different nose profiles react differently to velocity. The FN Barnes profile does not show a lot of reaction to increased velocity

The CEB and North Fork do react to increased velocity by a good margin. I would not discount that a 400 CEB 416 at 2400 fps might penetrate some deeper than a 500 CEB 458 at 2150 fps? I can't say definitively since I have not tested that exact scenario.

Even if it did, my opinion would be that 416 vs 458 is basically a moot point, it might with one design, and would not with another, so it is for sure inconclusive at best that one will out penetrate another........ And to state even further, it is of little consequence since both provide more than what is required to accomplish the mission. With proper designs, both will end to end elephant..... both will exit elephant broadside heart, and both will exit broadside brain shots and frontal brain shots. Both will end to end buffalo if required........ same with hippo............ Regardless if it is 60 inches in my test medium, or 75 inches....... in the field, both or all would perform as required........

Another point, I think Mark made this one somewhere as well....... 458 hits harder up front......and this is true in the extreme, and noticeable animal reactions to taking 416 vs 458 and +........... I have seen many buffalo just slammed when taking a Flat Nose .458 caliber solid........ and nearly nothing with the 416s.......

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Even if it did, my opinion would be that 416 vs 458 is basically a moot point, it might with one design, and would not with another, so it is for sure inconclusive at best that one will out penetrate another........ And to state even further, it is of little consequence since both provide more than what is required to accomplish the mission. With proper designs, both will end to end elephant..... both will exit elephant broadside heart, and both will exit broadside brain shots and frontal brain shots. Both will end to end buffalo if required........ same with hippo............ Regardless if it is 60 inches in my test medium, or 75 inches....... in the field, both or all would perform as required........

Another point, I think Mark made this one somewhere as well....... 458 hits harder up front......and this is true in the extreme, and noticeable animal reactions to taking 416 vs 458 and +........... I have seen many buffalo just slammed when taking a Flat Nose .458 caliber solid........ and nearly nothing with the 416s.......

Yes, I did point out that with the same energy, a larger diameter bullet of the same design will transfer more energy quicker than a smaller diameter bullet. But as you state, with proper solids, either a .416 or .458 will penetrate plenty enough!

Personally, I have a tuskless elephant hunt booked for which I will carry my trusty Heym 88B in .458 Winchester. She will be loaded with 500 gr CEB solids clocking an average of 2150 fps. That is what Ms. Heym regulates nicely out to 100 meters and beyond!

My safe also includes another .458 Win, 458 Lott and a 450 Rigby in bolt action rifles. I also own a custom M70 .416 Rem and 500/416 Krieghoff Classic. But the 458 Win with CEB solids at a MZ of 2150 will serve me well within 50 meters for elephant.

If I was limited to only one large bore rifle intended for hunting Africa, which thankfully to the USA founding fathers I am not, I’d own a .416. A .416 bolt action would enable me to take elephant and other dangerous game at close, dangerous range, and place projectiles into the kill spot of other large game at 200 or more meters, if I could not get any closer.

Of the five different chamberings in my rifles in .416 and .458 caliber, I put faith in my trusty .458 Win for dangerous game.