404 jeffery vs 416 Rigby

[bassasdaindia]

im currently shooting a 416 RM because the Winchester M70 is a nicer gun then the CZ 550 and costs the same. the 416 Rigby is a better cartridge then the 416 RM mostly because of case capacity. the 416 RM has trouble with mono-metal bullets like Barnes or CEB. having said that, I LOVE my M70 in 416 RM!

back on topic, one of these days I need to try a 404 Jeffery!

-matt

firing a 404 jeff may just come true very soon

 

[matt85]

firing a 404 jeff may just come true very soon

sounds good!

-matt

 

[spike.t]

firing a 404 jeff may just come true very soon

hey when do you get it back? mine is in transit somewhere..........

 

[bassasdaindia]

hey when do you get it back? mine is in transit somewhere..........

spike , I've had the 404 for some time now

 

[spike.t]

yup, thought maybe you were having something else tweaked on it.

 

[bassasdaindia]

yup, thought maybe you were having something else tweaked on it.

actually was having some work done , you are correct ..... smoothed the trigger after fitting the 3 lever safety that is fitted .

 

[spike.t]

when are you going to christen it on a hunt?

 

[bassasdaindia]

when are you going to christen it on a hunt?

soon very soon and perhaps when I come up to Zambia with Leon

 

[spike.t]

soon very soon and perhaps when I come up to Zambia with Leon

sounds good

 

[Rick Hill]

In fact if we look at case capacity there is a big difference. A water capacity of 130 for the rigby and 113 for the Jeffrey the reason for the Rigby case being used so often for the development off larger cartridges.In practice at inteded loads this is what you have:
Rigby 400gr 2400fps 5117 ft/lb Taylor KO 57.1 Recoil 65.8ft/lb
Jeffrey 400gr 2375fps 5011ft/lb Taylor KO 57.4 Recoil 58.2ft/lb
Up to each to decide.

I have both the 404 Jeffery and the 416 Rigby in identical stock designs and the same weight. Both are custom bolt guns and accurate but there is a large difference is recoil. The 416 Rigby/450 NE are at the upper end of what I can shoot reliably and comfortably. The 404 Jeffery is just very pleasant to shoot with much lower perceived recoil probably from a reduced jet effect from lower powder weights similar to that seen in 416 Remington vs 416 Rigby. I don't think the operating pressure is that big of a deal other wise why is the 375 H&H so beloved?

 

[Rule 303]

I had flipped a coin to chose between a 416 Rigby and 404J and decided on a 404. How ever I coud not find a 404 at a reasonable price but a CZ550 in Rigby brand new was $1600 Aussie. I bought it and have not regretted it. yes my Buff ran 50Mts but one shot from front on took out the top of its heart and ended up inches short of coming out the rump after going through pelvic bone. The Ele dropped to the shot but that was a brain shot.

The 375H&H is often toted as One Gun to hunt the world and this is true to my thinking. However if you hand load the 416 Rigby is even more One Gun to hunt the world. Using 340 grain 416 projectiles and without running Weatherby speeds you have a 400mt plains rifle.

Which ever one a person has I do not think you will go wrong.

 

[matt85]

The 375H&H is often toted as One Gun to hunt the world and this is true to my thinking. However if you hand load the 416 Rigby is even more One Gun to hunt the world. Using 340 grain 416 projectiles and without running Weatherby speeds you have a 400mt plains rifle.

load the 416 Rigby with a 300gr Barnes and it will become a whole different animal! I use them in my 416 RM and they hit PG and local game like the hammer of thor.

-matt

 

[sierraone]

load the 416 Rigby with a 300gr Barnes and it will become a whole different animal! I use them in my 416 RM and they hit PG and local game like the hammer of thor.

-matt

In your opinion could you "safely" hunt buff with a 300 gr Barnes in a .416 Rigby? Lots of people hunt buff with a .375 H&H with 300 gr rounds.

 

[IvW]

In your opinion could you "safely" hunt buff with a 300 gr Barnes in a .416 Rigby? Lots of people hunt buff with a .375 H&H with 300 gr rounds.

Why do you want to use a 300gr bullet in a 416 Rigby on DG?

 

[sierraone]

Why do you want to use a 300gr bullet in a 416 Rigby on DG?

That is where the thread lead to. My point is, if you reload, is there a reason you can't hunt a buffalo with a 300 gr bullet in a .416 Rigby since 300 gr. bullets are used commonly in .375 H&H on dangerous game.

 

[IvW]

That is where the thread lead to. My point is, if you reload, is there a reason you can't hunt a buffalo with a 300 gr bullet in a .416 Rigby since 300 gr. bullets are used commonly in .375 H&H on dangerous game.

I would not.

There is no benefit to use a 300gr in 416 Caliber over a 400gr bullet and it might well get you killed. 416 Rigby has done what it does best with a 400gr bullet, I fail to see the need to risk the lighter bullet.

It is common practice to use bullets with a SD of 0.3 or more for DG. The 350 gr Barnes in 375 H$H would be the best choice in that caliber for buffalo and the 400 gr one in 416 caliber as they do not offer a 450 gr. A 300gr in 416 caliber is the wrong way to go. As can be seen below the SD of a 300gr 416 bullet is very poor(0.248) and not suited for DG especially buffalo.

Barnes info:
375 H&H :

Diameter .375
Weight 300
Length 1.493
S.D 0.305
B.C 0.357

Diameter .375
Weight 350
Length 1.691
S.D 0.356
B.C 0.425

Diameter .416
Weight 300
Length 1.256
S.D 0.248
B.C 0.298

Diameter .416
Weight 400
Length 1.59
S.D 0.33
B.C 0.392

 

[matt85]

In your opinion could you "safely" hunt buff with a 300 gr Barnes in a .416 Rigby? Lots of people hunt buff with a .375 H&H with 300 gr rounds.

could you... yes.

should you... I personally wouldn't.

if I was going to use Barnes in a 404/416 to hunt buffalo I would use a 350gr TSX loaded as fast as I could get while still getting good accuracy. however the outfitter on my last two hunts uses a 375 H&H for a loaner gun and the ammunition supplied is loaded with very light mono-metal bullets (200gr if memory serves me right). according to my PH this light mono metal load has taken plenty of buffalo with a great deal of effectiveness. @KMG Hunting Safaris please chime in here if you get a chance.

mono-metal expanding bullets don't typically follow the same rules as lead bullets. a 350gr TSX from a 416 Rigby will drive just as deep or even deeper then a 400gr lead soft point bullet could assuming you are running full speed with each bullet.

-matt

 

[sierraone]

could you... yes.

should you... I personally wouldn't.

if I was going to use Barnes in a 404/416 to hunt buffalo I would use a 350gr TSX loaded as fast as I could get while still getting good accuracy. however the outfitter on my last two hunts uses a 375 H&H for a loaner gun and the ammunition supplied is loaded with very light mono-metal bullets (200gr if memory serves me right). according to my PH this light mono metal load has taken plenty of buffalo with a great deal of effectiveness. @KMG Hunting Safaris please chime in here if you get a chance.

mono-metal expanding bullets don't typically follow the same rules as lead bullets. a 350gr TSX from a 416 Rigby will drive just as deep or even deeper then a 400gr lead soft point bullet could assuming you are running full speed with each bullet.

-matt

This is more of an answer to my question. I believe IvW thought I was promoting using small bullets in large bores. I am not, I don't reload. I was just trying to find out if it was feasible to do so for buffalo. This was in response to your post about loading a 300 gr Barnes into a .416 Remington for plains game. I guess my next question would be, why use a .416 Rem, Rigby or Ruger for plains game? But now you tell us that KMG uses 200 grain mono metal bullets in a .375 for buff. I understand that the monolithic solids are a different animal, but it also just confuses the issue of this thread more for me.

 

[IvW]

could you... yes.

mono-metal expanding bullets don't typically follow the same rules as lead bullets. a 350gr TSX from a 416 Rigby will drive just as deep or even deeper then a 400gr lead soft point bullet could assuming you are running full speed with each bullet.

-matt

When using them on PG this may be true however on DG it is a different story.

If that is so then the 400gr TSX would out penetrate the 350gr TSX. Why on earth would anybody then want to use the 350gr TSX instead of the 400gr TSX? Makes no sense

"assuming you are running full speed with each bullet"- I can never understand this unnecessary need for speed!! Especially when talking about dangerous game.

You need a heavy bullet travelling at a respectable velocity. Which in the case of the 416 Rigby is 400gr bullet at about 2350-2400 fps and not a 350 gr bullet at 2700 fps or more.

This will ensure optimum bullet performance, penetration and killing ability when dealing with dangerous game, high velocity and low weight bullets are not part of this equation irrespective of design.

 

[matt85]

the 350gr .416" TSX will pass threw the buffalo from almost any any angle... so will the 400gr, which will make the buffalo more dead? as far as im concerned there is no reason the 400gr .416" TSX or the 300gr .375" TSX should even exist. i can verify this from personal experience on game as well as from talking with Barnes engineers. since you brought up speed, in the case of mono metal bullets the faster you push the bullet, the more reliable it will be. also, when it comes to penetration the faster you push a mono metal bullet the more penetration you will get. you are free to contact Barnes and ask them about this and they will tell you the same thing.

Barnes rep at the DSC show:

the only reason Barnes makes the 400gr .416" TSX and the 300gr .375" TSX is because people who dont understand how mono-metal bullets work still want them.

i have personally used a 300gr Barnes TSX in my 416 RM to do serious damage to a number of animals and in most cases the bullet passes clean threw. the only time ive recovered a 300gr .416" Barnes was from a chest shot on a blue wildebeest and the bullet was recovered near the tail. i also use a 210gr Barnes TTSX in my 338 WM for long range PG (was very effective in Namibia). the only time the 210gr bullets didnt completely pass threw animals were on two zebra chest shots.

now im not a Barnes fanboy and actually do not recommend them for buffalo. even the 300gr .416" Barnes will likely pass threw on a broad side shot which means there is a risk of hitting a second animal (not many people can afford two buffalo). i much prefer a lead bullet such as the Swift A-frame or the Woodleigh RNSP for buffalo because it will typically be caught by the skin on the off side of the animal. when it comes to standard lead bullets i will always recommend you go with a heavy bullet with a .300+ SD for optimum penetration.

-Matt