1st rifle for grandson

[Forrest Halley]

What nobody suggested a .35 whelen? In three pages? C'mon Bob! You're losing your touch.

 

[Dr Ray]

@Dr Ray
Don't be so mean to the young fella by inflicting him with that. At least go to the 6.5x55 or dare I say the 6.5 manbun, but NOT the 243.
Bob

Why is that, Bob??

 

[Forrest Halley]

Maybe a 243 using 100 grain Bullets

Not for Elk.

My son has done very well with a 243 using 85g Barnes bullets. Modern bullets make a 243 perfectly adequate for many animals.

But Elk?

No Brake,
A .243, yeah I'm not against it with good projectiles and good shot placement.

Elk though, I'm not seeing it.

@Dr Ray
Don't be so mean to the young fella by inflicting him with that. At least go to the 6.5x55 or dare I say the 6.5 manbun, but NOT the 243.
Bob

Hi Bob, glad to see you up and about tilting windmills and chasing away the hippy-fabulous caliber lovers. Haha

I bought my 13-year-old son a Browning A-bolt in .30-06. He killed an 8-point with it the next morning, literally less than 12 hours after I gave it to him...he's 28 now and still killing deer with it.

View attachment 421561

It's the stainless and walnut gun...

View attachment 421562

You sure can bore sight a rifle...or that was the quickest range trip and luckiest hunter ever.

I going to suggest against the .243. It's a fine caliber. This is going to be used for elk hunting occasionally. Will a .243 kill an elk? Sure it will. Is it ideal for the job? I dare say 95+% of us wouldn't reach for our trusty .243 if we were going elk hunting. There are far better tools out there. Lets help set this young man up for success with a rifle he can continue to use for many years.
I say this having killed close to 50 elk in my life and being around/in on that many more. They are big animals. Enough preaching. YMMV.
Bruce

Nope. We'd all pull something else if we had it. There was once a statement made in an American Hunter article about people that hunted elk with a .243 having the entire season to pick the right shot and being residents of the area they hunted. I'm iffy on using a .270 for Elk hunting. I just feel like you owe the game just a bit more in the muzzle energy department. For a beginning hunter that is a recipe for a long track and possible lost animal. When he's big enough to shoulder the rifle that can take the game, then it is time.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Why is that, Bob??

@Dr Ray
Both those 6.5s are better than that cartridge you mentioned
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

What nobody suggested a .35 whelen? In three pages? C'mon Bob! You're losing your touch.

@Forrest Halley
I'm not that mean to inflict recoil on a young person, yes he can load lighter but why not give him a lighter weight and recoil to start with.
Bob

 

[lwaters]

I think the 6.5 Creedmoor will be alright. Not that it's any better than the 260 rem or 6.5 swede. There is just more factory ammo available. I think a 140 grain premium bullet would do for elk.

 

[CBH Australia]

@Forrest Halley
Agreed on the .243 on Elk or Not for Elk point, I've read enough to understand they are big. I haven't seen our Sambar in the flesh but they can be quite big and you need a calibre larger than .270 to hunt them legally.

I have probably been an advocate of the 7mm-08 throwing in .308 as a sensible option too.

No hippy Manbun chambering s in my selection or safe. They don't serve Latte at my club.

The outfitters wife in SA displayed 2 Kudu they SHE had taken with a .25-06. I still think it's funny only her trophies were on display in the new home, his were in the lodge.

I've shot a lot with .308s and .223s that I still own but i buy others because they make them.

 

[Dr Ray]

The reason I picked the 243 - low recoil but reasonably powerful
I’m not suggesting the 243 for elk
I would suggest that the young person graduate to hunting elk when he can handle a more powerful cartridge
Steady as he goes

 

[BeeMaa]

Has anyone else realized that the OP hasn't posted on this thread since post #9? And we are here (3 pages later) still discussing the 243WIN or 6.5CM for a first rifle. Don't get me wrong, I believe it's a worthy subject for discussion. Just an observation that I thought it was funny.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Has anyone else realized that the OP hasn't posted on this thread since post #9? And we are here (3 pages later) still discussing the 243WIN or 6.5CM for a first rifle. Don't get me wrong, I believe it's a worthy subject for discussion. Just an observation that I thought it was funny.

@BeeMaa
Just goes to show we are trying to steer the young fella off those two cartridges. We'll ok the man bun maybe passable because of the ammo shortage but otherwise I would start with the 6.5x55. Even the name seems to have class compared to the others.
Does anyone know of any wildcats based on the Swede
Bob

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Forrest Halley
I'm not that mean to inflict recoil on a young person, yes he can load lighter but why not give him a lighter weight and recoil to start with.
Bob

125 grain Hornady XTP's loaded to suit with matching plinkers to start. The little guy has a rifle that's as big as he can stand.
With the right encouragement a young person can handle recoil. I was 12 or so and shooting the .30-06. It slid me backwards from a bench, but I didn't care and was making hits at 500 yards. It's a .30-06 or a .35 with those requirements as a starter rifle for me. Just not both. It's too duplicitous and annoying on the reloading bench.

@Forrest Halley
Agreed on the .243 on Elk or Not for Elk point, I've read enough to understand they are big. I haven't seen our Sambar in the flesh but they can be quite big and you need a calibre larger than .270 to hunt them legally.

I have probably been an advocate of the 7mm-08 throwing in .308 as a sensible option too.

No hippy Manbun chambering s in my selection or safe. They don't serve Latte at my club.

The outfitters wife in SA displayed 2 Kudu they SHE had taken with a .25-06. I still think it's funny only her trophies were on display in the new home, his were in the lodge.

I've shot a lot with .308s and .223s that I still own but i buy others because they make them.

I just don't trust a young person or new hunter to exercise the judgement required to make ethical shots on an animal that big with that caliber. They'll shoot every time no matter range or angle. It's what they do in their quest to be a story teller in the evening.

The problem with the manbun is the speed sniper competitions where energy isn't a consideration beyond activating a flash target at 1200 yards or putting a hole in a target backer. Idiots watch this on tv and find a plethora of long range shooting dope and believe that if they can hit they can kill it from our shot placement over energy arguments being selectively interpreted in favor of pet calibers.

The reason I picked the 243 - low recoil but reasonably powerful
I’m not suggesting the 243 for elk
I would suggest that the young person graduate to hunting elk when he can handle a more powerful cartridge
Steady as he goes

Why the need for two rifles? A young person doesn't need so much equipment. They need to master one piece at a time. I'd go so far as ensuring they understood that they were to use only a specific type of ammunition and that only that ammunition was present in their gear and available to them. Avoids a gun shooting a 150gr when it's zeroed for a 180gr.

Has anyone else realized that the OP hasn't posted on this thread since post #9? And we are here (3 pages later) still discussing the 243WIN or 6.5CM for a first rifle. Don't get me wrong, I believe it's a worthy subject for discussion. Just an observation that I thought it was funny.

It happens. In our quest to be informative and share the wealth, we are occasionally trolled. Seems best not to worry about it and proceed forward enjoying our stories.

 

[Shootist43]

Hogpatrol, I'm with you on your "procedure" for determining group size and or accuracy. When hunting it is the first shot that really counts. I've heard it said that. "train how you shoot, then shoot like you train." Zeroing with a cold bore takes a lot longer, but the proof is in the pudding.

 

[Rell]

Two thoughts. The first is that if this is his first rifle it does not have to be his forever rifle. I would argue it shouldn’t. He’s small now and recoil is an isssue. Get him the perfect rifle for the next 3-5 years then trade it for something more forever. Short LOP stock. Low recoil so it starts with 243, 6.5 Creedmore and 7mm-08. Fixed Leupold 2.5x or 4x scope. I’d go for a Kimber Montana for sure.

If it’s a forever rifle, you almost need a second stock when he grows into his adult height. Or keep the piece of stock you get cut out and glue it back and repaint it. It still has to be low recoil to day but you can get a break for it, for practice and remove it for the hunt, he won’t feel it going off when shooting on game. Here another short action round like the 308 or 338 Federal would be ideal. Petit short actioned rifles really help with kids. The Kimber is great here as well but maybe a Remington Model 7 would fit the bill?

We have to get them hooked young and some kids are sensitive, build it for today and worry about forever down the road.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Hogpatrol, I'm with you on your "procedure" for determining group size and or accuracy. When hunting it is the first shot that really counts. I've heard it said that. "train how you shoot, then shoot like you train." Zeroing with a cold bore takes a lot longer, but the proof is in the pudding.

To add to this, I read an article about a young marine who had Carlos Hathcock help him zero his hunting rifle.
Every morning he had him fire one shot, adjust the scope, then clean the bore, finishing with a dry patch.
Carlos also had him keep a very specific journal, recording everything about the weather, range, and scope adjustments. Carlos told him
“If a fly lands on the barrel and farts, write it down”
Your first shot in the field is the only one that matters, and that is the reason Carlos had him do it that way. They kept this up for about a month, however I can’t recall if he had a successful hunt or not.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Hogpatrol, I'm with you on your "procedure" for determining group size and or accuracy. When hunting it is the first shot that really counts. I've heard it said that. "train how you shoot, then shoot like you train." Zeroing with a cold bore takes a lot longer, but the proof is in the pudding.

This is a very good procedure for zeroing rifles for hunting. I am also a fan of teaching shooters to make rapid follow up shots so they aren't standing there with thumb up bum when the first shot doesn't achieve the desired result.

To add to this, I read an article about a young marine who had Carlos Hathcock help him zero his hunting rifle.
Every morning he had him fire one shot, adjust the scope, then clean the bore, finishing with a dry patch.
Carlos also had him keep a very specific journal, recording everything about the weather, range, and scope adjustments. Carlos told him
“If a fly lands on the barrel and farts, write it down”
Your first shot in the field is the only one that matters, and that is the reason Carlos had him do it that way. They kept this up for about a month, however I can’t recall if he had a successful hunt or not.

That was quite an interesting read. They shot in all kinds of light and conditions. It was quite spectacular the amount of data and experience gained.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hogpatrol, I'm with you on your "procedure" for determining group size and or accuracy. When hunting it is the first shot that really counts. I've heard it said that. "train how you shoot, then shoot like you train." Zeroing with a cold bore takes a lot longer, but the proof is in the pudding.

@Shootist43
Art that's how I've been sighting in my rifles for years, but I do it with both a clean barrel and a dirty barrel to see if there is any difference. So far I have not detected a difference in first shot from a clean or dirty barrel. Once sighted for the first shot I then shoot a couple of groups to see what is happening after the barrel warms up.
Slow yes, worth it definitely.
After all is done I know the first and all other shots will go exactly where they are supposed to.
Bob

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Shootist43
Art that's how I've been sighting in my rifles for years, but I do it with both a clean barrel and a dirty barrel to see if there is any difference. So far I have not detected a difference in first shot from a clean or dirty barrel. Once sighted for the first shot I then shoot a couple of groups to see what is happening after the barrel warms up.
Slow yes, worth it definitely.
After all is done I know the first and all other shots will go exactly where they are supposed to.
Bob

I play this game with rifles I use a lot across different seasons. I'm interested in the ambient barrel shot impact and the various stages of heating during firing. I say ambient because it's awfully convenient to shoot a gun from an artificially adjusted environment in a zeroing and have a false first shot impact. I have found a great variance in the .22 LR between clean and dirty barrels. Enough that the duty rifle is kept fouled in the barrel, but wiped in the action and outer surfaces. Sighting in during the summer time is annoying due to the slow cooling of the barrel especially on high velocity loads. I've even considered rigging up an air compressor to blow through the barrel between shots. Thoughts on that?

All in all I like knowing about the follow up shots too and agree that it's slow and worth it.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I play this game with rifles I use a lot across different seasons. I'm interested in the ambient barrel shot impact and the various stages of heating during firing. I say ambient because it's awfully convenient to shoot a gun from an artificially adjusted environment in a zeroing and have a false first shot impact. I have found a great variance in the .22 LR between clean and dirty barrels. Enough that the duty rifle is kept fouled in the barrel, but wiped in the action and outer surfaces. Sighting in during the summer time is annoying due to the slow cooling of the barrel especially on high velocity loads. I've even considered rigging up an air compressor to blow through the barrel between shots. Thoughts on that?

All in all I like knowing about the follow up shots too and agree that it's slow and worth it.

@Forrest Halley.
My method is done outdoors no controlled environment bullshit. At the end of it all I know I cam pick up my rifle and go bang and know it will hit where it is supposed to.
If I have enough time before a hunt I go to the range,set up a target a 200 yards and fire a one shot group. That shot is always exactly where it should be and I haven't adjusted the scope in 10 years. I was shooting with a mate that wanted a shot with my 25. He lasered 2 small rocks, one at 275 yards the other at 330. He asked where to hold on them and told him he just answered his own question. From a sitting supported position he fired his first shot at the closest then the second at the further one. Both shots resting in the rocks becoming pebbles. It's good to have confidence in your rifle.
Bob

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Forrest Halley.
My method is done outdoors no controlled environment bullshit. At the end of it all I know I cam pick up my rifle and go bang and know it will hit where it is supposed to.
If I have enough time before a hunt I go to the range,set up a target a 200 yards and fire a one shot group. That shot is always exactly where it should be and I haven't adjusted the scope in 10 years. I was shooting with a mate that wanted a shot with my 25. He lasered 2 small rocks, one at 275 yards the other at 330. He asked where to hold on them and told him he just answered his own question. From a sitting supported position he fired his first shot at the closest then the second at the further one. Both shots resting in the rocks becoming pebbles. It's good to have confidence in your rifle.
Bob

My rifles live inside. So if I see something outside I have a temperature disparity to deal with in summer or winter. Especially during humid points where scopes fog up. Groundhogs don't always hang around for a rifle to acclimate. Deer rifles take some time to acclimate also from the truck to the stand. So everyone has artificial environmental factors to deal with.

 

[Rubberhead]

I bought my 13-year-old son a Browning A-bolt in .30-06. He killed an 8-point with it the next morning, literally less than 12 hours after I gave it to him...he's 28 now and still killing deer with it.

You sure can bore sight a rifle...or that was the quickest range trip and luckiest hunter ever.

So, are you calling me a liar, or are you just being an internet duh mass?

I'll give you some fill-in-the-gap but otherwise impertinent details so you'll feel better and your head won't explode.

My dad and I bought the rifle at Dicks Sporting Goods. They were kind enough to mount the scope and bore sight it for us. Dad took it to the range and sighted the rifle in. I gave the rifle to my son at 9 o'clock that evening so he could hunt with it the next morning. He killed a deer sometime between 7:30 and 8 am the next morning. It really wasn't that difficult of a feat but I'm glad you were impressed enough to mention it.